Abortion thread

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Wow this thread is moving! (And what's with the good nights and sweet dreams? This is a debate, people! )

My darling blob of cells may still be a parasite (and an annoyingly active one at that!) but at 7.5 weeks, I heard his heartbeat. It's not religious to me - anything that has different DNA than me and has a beating heart is another life, regardless of how dependent it is on me. That's my justification of life beginning at conception.

For the record, though - I'm with PAW on hoping that someday we'll live in a world where abortion isn't seen as a justifiable method of birth control. I don't want to make it illegal because I don't want women to resort to alley/coat hanger abortions. But I do want to educate people so that the question of whether to abort is not a frequently asked one.

I like that line of thinking.....

fully informed--should be fully informed...nothing wrong with informing a woman seeking an abortion--that yes there is a heartbeat, yes there is brainwaves....would you like to see a picture.

Are clinics more service oriented or are some for profit. It seems if it is for service..then they should have available all facts, even if it means that someone will then choose not to have the abortion.

And for the record--in college, for a class assignment--I did go to a clinic and interviewed the staff on their opinions regarding abortion. I had to record the interview and it had to be fact-finding for solely their viewpoint and I was not permitted to do anything to exhibit my opinion or counterpoint. I sat in the car and cried aftewards..it was very hard...and I wasn't even there for an abortion.

 

[sha_lyn]

For the record, though - I'm with PAW on hoping that someday we'll live in a world where abortion isn't seen as a justifiable method of birth control. I don't want to make it illegal because I don't want women to resort to alley/coat hanger abortions. But I do want to educate people so that the question of whether to abort is not a frequently asked one.

Very well said. I want there to be a day when elective abortions are almost unheard of, not because they are illegal, but because they are not needed.

Just because I am pro-life does not mean I want RvW overturned. I think that would open a whole new can of worms.

If it were up to me to write a national abortion law it would be something like this. Note these are only my opinions, which come from my knowledge, life experience and emotions. I had a miscarriage, unmarried at age 18. Saw pieces of the "fetus" which was in all ways my child/baby to me at about 14 weeks gestation.
Have also had 2 children which includes a high risk pregnancy and an emergency c-section.


12 weeks gestation no restrictions, but 48 with hr waiting period after counseling.

13-24 weeks.... no elective abortions, abortion only when mothers health is at risk, or it is determined that the fetus will not survive.

24+ weeks... abortion only when fetus will not survive, or if the mothers life is at stake and there is no possible way to deliver the fetus.

I am completely against allowing a minor to have an abortion without parental consent, or obtaining a court order if the pregnancy occurred due to incest or abuse in the home (IE the male in the home but not the bio father).

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Very well said. I want there to be a day when elective abortions are almost unheard of, not because they are illegal, but because they are not needed.

Just because I am pro-life does not mean I want RvW overturned. I think that would open a whole new can of worms.

If it were up to me to write a national abortion law it would be something like this. Note these are only my opinions, which come from my knowledge, life experience and emotions. I had a misscarriage, unmarried at age 18. Saw pieces of the "fetus" which was in all ways my child/baby to me at about 14 weeks gestation.
Have also had 2 children which includes a high risk pregnacy and an emergency c-section.


12 weeks gestation no restrictions, but 48 with hr waiting period after counseling.

13-24 weeks.... no elective abortions, abortion only when mothers health is at risk, or it is dertermind that the fetus will not survive.

24+ weeks... abortion only when fetus will not survive, or if the mothers life is at stake and there is no possible way to deliver the futus.

I am completely against allowing a minor to have an abortion without parental consent, or obtaining a court order if the pregnancy occured due to incest or abuse in the home (ie the male in the home but not the bio father).

Well written--I agree that the various stages as set forth by the medical profession need to have different regulations for each stage.

 

[swilphil]

I've seen several posts that talk about doing away with the need for abortion. If that's the case, why are some of the same people who are pro-life against teaching birth control, or even using birth control in extreme cases. I know abstinence isn't 100 percent, but the stats show that when birth control is taught teen pregnancy rates go down. I know there's a moral issue that we don't want teens to have sex, but that's not always the reality.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I've seen several posts that talk about doing away with the need for abortion. If that's the case, why are some of the same people who are pro-life against teaching birth control, or even using birth control in extreme cases. I know abstinence isn't 100 percent, but the stats show that when birth control is taught teen pregnancy rates go down. I know there's a moral issue that we don't want teens to have sex, but that's not always the reality.

Wouldn't be so much of a big deal if they taught about abstinence as well.

Additionally most BCP's are abortificants (sp???) meaning that sperm and egg could meet (conception) but the implantation would be prevented due to the BCP. So for those who do believe life truly begins at conception--in good conscience do not take or endorse BCP's for this reason. Abstinence is the only 100% safe method....the catch is to provide the information when someone chooses not to abstain without saying that one is endorsing sex outside of marriage.

I am not judging those who use or promote BCP--just stating a fact--I would be more than happy to quote the source if I can find my materials wherever they may be hiding around the house.

I'm a believer in Natural Family Planning as when utilized properly, it is just as, if not more, effective than all other forms of birth control. Just like someone can improperly use a barrier method or forget to take a pill, as long as you follow NFP properly, the chances of the method failing are as low if not lower than barrier methods. NFP utilizes current cycle observations to identify the window of opportunity for ovulation and you choose what to do with that information. There are other methods similar to NFP--NFP is just the version taught through my church.

I use this method b/c I do not like taking meds/pills of any kind unless I really have to. I'm chemical-phobic so to speak....so synthetic anything just makes little sense to me.

 

[sha_lyn]

swilphil

I haven't seen one person who says they would like see no need for abortion saying they are against birth control. Are you painting a broad brush and assuming anyone pro-life is against birth control? As for someone who is not against birth control I can not speak for those who are.

There have also been several pro-choice DIS memebers who have expressed the same desire in previous threads. Just because someone is pro-choice does not mean they "like" abortions and want them performed.

 

[bubba's mom]

Just because someone is pro-choice does not mean they "like" abortions and want them performed.

I'm "pro-choice" not necessarily "pro-abortion"

 

[auntpolly]

I think the interesting thing about this thread is the common ground that we've found -- while not many of us like the idea of abortion, not many of us like the idea of changing the law. I doubt if any one of us thinks more education is not necessary and that there is a need to reduce abortions. What we need is a few partial birth abortion advocates or abortion clinic protesters to join in and stir the pot.....or maybe not!

 

[ericamanda01]

Just a thought, but maybe they need to bring back the debate board!

 

[swilphil]

There is a current push by some groups to teach abstinence ONLY in schools. The four school districts that I have worked with did, in fact, teach abstinence along with presenting information about birth control methods (this was in high schools). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the official stance from the Catholic Church one that discourages any form of birth control, aside from natural family planning? My Catholic friends, though devout on many levels, do use birth control.

 

[auntpolly]

There is a current push by some groups to teach abstinence ONLY in schools. The four school districts that I have worked with did, in fact, teach abstinence along with presenting information about birth control methods (this was in high schools). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the official stance from the Catholic Church one that discourages any form of birth control, aside from natural family planning? My Catholic friends, though devout on many levels, do use birth control.

I haven't met a priest that counseled against BC for a loooooooooong time. When I was getting married 25 years ago they were telling us to use our own judgement. I'm sure there are some conservative priests that would disagree, and I know the Pope would for sure, but I think that's the nature of the American Catholic Church.

 

[Tasha+Scott]

Well, I have stayed off of this thread b/c I figured it would get heated pretty quickly. But after reading all of the replies and seeing how civil it has remained I now feel like jumping in. But don't worry, I am all about keeping it civil as well.

Anyway, at one time I would have said I am 100% pro-life, but now I think I am more like 90% pro-life and 10% pro-choice. I think there are certain circumstances when an abortion is okay. Not many IMO, but some. I agree with PAW that a lot of times abortion is used as a form of birth control. I do not agree with abortion for this purpose. However, Totalia, I think if I had been in your friend's shoes I would have done the same thing. Not saying that is an easy choice for anyone to make, but if you know that there is absolutely no way that you or the baby would live, then what is the point of trying to keep the baby? At one time (actually not very long ago) I would have said that if I was given the choice between my life or the baby's life...only one of us could survive...that I would choose the baby. Now I don't think I would. I can't justify leaving my Dh or my soon-to-be daughter behind. As far as rape is concerned, I know what I think I would do, but I would have to actually be in the situation to say for sure. I think I would give birth to the baby and then give it up for adoption. But who can say for sure? I discussed these scenarios with my Dh this morning, since he is also mostly pro-life. I wanted to know what he thought. I in no way influenced him but he is for abortion if it came to my life or the baby's. He also would want me to get an abortion if I was raped and conceived as a result. He thinks it would be too painful to see me preg. by my rapist. However, he said that would be my decision to make. So, all I can say is I hope I am never in that situation. I feel it would be a lose-lose situation for all involved. If I carried the baby and then gave it up for adoption I feel that would strain the relationship between Dh and me. If I abort it, I might end up feeling extremely guilty. My belief is that it is a baby from the time of conception. I know that that is more of a religious belief and I am not trying to make anyone feel the way I do about it, but that is one reason abortion is so hard for me to understand. I will say that even when I was 100% pro-life, I would have NEVER been one of the sign-welding protesters outside of abortion clinics. I never understood the point in that personally. It isn't like it would change things anyway. I also am for educating people more about abstinence and birth control. My mother was the type who was against teens having birth control so I was smart enough to go get put on it myself (secretly) when Dh and I first started dating when I was 17. It is a good thing I did, b/c about a month later, the condom broke. If not for those bc pills I might now have a 6 year old. And I doubt my relationship with Dh would have survived a teenage preg. Neither of us were ready to be parents. So, yes, I am pro-life (except for medical life-death situations) but I also support educating the youth about birth control. I would rather my child be on birth control than get preg. and go out and get an abortion. So, there are some pro-lifers out there that do believe in birth control education. I have felt very enlightened reading this thread, b/c I never even thought about a situation like the one Totalia's friend went through. That really made me think. I still feel strongly about my views but can see the necessity of some abortions for reasons like this.

 

[goofygirl]

Originally Posted by poohandwendy
FWIW, I am pro life with respect for the current laws. I am not an advocate to change them because I believe the majority has spoken on this issue. And I don't think my moral beliefs should dicate the legality of the issue.

But, I also believe that the justifications are total BS. We can talk all we want about the shades of grey and hopeless cases (rape, medical nightmares, etc). And I agree, there are circumstances where it is the only option for a woman.

But the bottom line truth is that it is mostly being used as birth control and the very same women who abort because they merely didn't want that blob of cells 'at this time of her life' finds herself toting around a picture of an ultrasound, gushing about her unborn 'baby', a few years later.

Face it, we justify it for selfish reasons, for the most part.

I think that's a myth that most women who get abortions are using it as birth control. They are not. They are using it as a "fail safe" after their original BC methods has failed them. I personally know quite a few people who have had abortions and they have no regrets. They don't go around crying and carrying around ultrasound photos, and I wouldn't either if I had aborted. That would be stupid. And regarding "selfish reasons" to get an abortions...well many, many people have babies for selfish reasons too. All you have to do is read the "How old were you when you got pregnant?" thread to see that. ("I forgot the Pill"..."We just winged it" "I used no birth control!" - ALL SELFISH reasons to have a baby. Why can't people see that??)
But if you abort, oh you are deemed "selfish"!
How come if you keep a baby its "okay" to be selfish then? Because its not a mistake, but a "miracle from God"?? Puh-leeze.

 

[auntpolly]

Puh-leeze.

OK, no s - we've been doing so well here!

 

[DisneyAddict_M]

I'm pro-life all the way, baby! I have no point, just thought I'd throw that out there. To each his own....

 

[DemonLlama]

I went to bed earlier than lots of you, but came back this morning to see what I missed.

Two things I wanted to comment on are the beliefs that
1. the majority of Americans support the current system under Roe V. Wade
and
2. the idea that overturning Roe V. Wade would make all abortions illegal are not really accurate.

From the National Right to Life site:
"a Wirthlin Worldwide poll conducted November 2 found that 10 percent said abortion should never be legal, 16 percent said abortion should be legal only to save the mother's life (the position of NRLC), and 29 percent said abortion should be legal only for life, rape, and incest. The total of these three groups -- favoring allowing abortion never or only to save the life of the mother, or in cases of rape or incest -- was 55%."

So by those numbers there is a majority of Americans who do not subscribe to the law as prescribed by Roe V. Wade, but would prefer to have a different set of limitations on abortion.

This seems born out by the discussion here -- lots of perspectives, but a majority on both sides of the issue agreeing that the over 41,000,000 abortions allowed under Roe V. Wade is too many.

Overturning Roe V. Wade would not outlaw any abortions. It would allow for states to determine the will of the people to set restrictions, which would presumably include the cases listed above and those discussed last night: rape, incest, and medical necessity.

Again, thanks to all for your insight and civility!

 

[auntpolly]

2. the idea that overturning Roe V. Wade would make all abortions illegal are not really accurate.

I'm more concerned with that "slippery slope". I hate to say it, but the masses are so easily manipulated, and who knows what people could be talked into with the right persuasion. If you had told me that OH and how many other states would have gone out in droves to vote to make sure gay people couldn't marry, I'd not have believed it.

You have to be ever viglilant in protecting your rights, is all I'm saying.

 

[Maleficent13]

I'm more concerned with that "slippery slope". I hate to say it, but the masses are so easily manipulated, and who knows what people could be talked into with the right persuasion. If you had told me that OH and how many other states would have gone out in droves to vote to make sure gay people couldn't marry, I'd not have believed it.

You have to be ever viglilant in protecting your rights, is all I'm saying.

I agree. I was stunned over the marriage amendment passing in OH (and the other 10 states it passed in). I guess I really didn't believe there were so many people who were so interested in whom I married or didn't marry, gay or straight. I always just sorta thought that was up to me to decide.

 

[auntpolly]

I agree. I was stunned over the marriage amendment passing in OH (and the other 10 states it passed in). I guess I really didn't believe there were so many people who were so interested in whom I married or didn't marry, gay or straight. I always just sorta thought that was up to me to decide.

I'm not saying that people got tricked into voting for it or anything -- but I don't believe anyone felt all that strongly about it until it was made into a crusade - a sort of "you're with us or against us" crusade (and by the way you'll rot in hell if you vote against us.). That same thing could happen with abortion!

 

[momo3hods]

Forgive me if someone already said this as I do not have the time to read all the replies with 3 little ones keeping me occupied. I am pro-life and believe life begins at conception, if it's not a human being, what is "it"??? I agree a very young fetus can not survive outside the womb without me but neither can my almost 7 month old who is sitting on my lap right now. That being said, I could not justify ending a life just because it is inconvenient to mine at the time. Not meant to offend anyone, just MHO.