2022 Point Charts Are Out

[Srinova]

I am not an expert either but the more I look at the PVB point charts the more they don’t sit right with me. I really feel something is off. Mostly - why are the total points for the year nearly 25,000 more than 2021 and 2020 charts... and nearly 25,000 more than the total declared points outlined in the POS. The increases in the 2022 chart do not appear to be offset by the same number of decreases elsewhere in the year. I emailed DVCM for further clarification and urge any other concerned PVB owner to do the same.

What is it that you’ve asked, exactly?

It just seems a huge difference over a week, for 2 resorts that have always been on par, to have a 15 point difference. For me that puts me out of reach of staying at my home resort, which is why I’m curious as to the discrepancy. It means my 11 month advantage is pointless.

 

[CarolynFH]

Ok, so if I read this correctly, the total number of points in the resort are equal to the base year. The base year is defined as a 365 day year with the minimum number of Fridays and Saturdays distributed through high demand periods. The base year is not a specific year but this defined 'year'. So any year that has more Fridays or Saturdays falling in high demand seasons, or leap years with an additional day, will have more points required to book all the rooms than there are total points.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm reading this incorrectly.

View attachment 543766

There is an actual base year that DVC uses when revising the points charts, so that the number of weekdays and number of weekend days are the same when totaling up the points needed to stay that year. It's believed that the base year is 1991. So the total number of points required to book based on the 2022 chart need to be compared to the total number of points required to book based on 1991, even if that resort wasn't open in 1991. Comparing 2022 to 2021, if looking at the total number of points required to book every villa every day of that year, is not valid because there are different numbers of weekdays in those years and different numbers of weekend days in those years. That's what that paragraph says.

 

[SL6827]

Ok, so if I read this correctly, the total number of points in the resort are equal to the base year. The base year is defined as a 365 day year with the minimum number of Fridays and Saturdays distributed through high demand periods. The base year is not a specific year but this defined 'year'. So any year that has more Fridays or Saturdays falling in high demand seasons, or leap years with an additional day, will have more points required to book all the rooms than there are total points.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm reading this incorrectly.

View attachment 543766

So if Disney wanted to deem more weeks as high demand they could drum themseles up more points in that regard? And all these extra points for 2022, how is this going to benefit Disney exactly?

 

[JETSDAD]

There is an actual base year that DVC uses when revising the points charts, so that the number of weekdays and number of weekend days are the same when totaling up the points needed to stay that year. It's believed that the base year is 1991. So the total number of points required to book based on the 2022 chart need to be compared to the total number of points required to book based on 1991, even if that resort wasn't open in 1991. Comparing 2022 to 2021, if looking at the total number of points required to book every villa every day of that year, is not valid because there are different numbers of weekdays in those years and different numbers of weekend days in those years. That's what that paragraph says.

Thank you. I knew that the comparison would have to be made to the base year rather than year to year but wasn't sure with the total points being defined on that base year if that could cause the total required in a given year to be greater than that base year.

 

[CarolynFH]

Thank you. I knew that the comparison would have to be made to the base year rather than year to year but wasn't sure with the total points being defined on that base year if that could cause the total required in a given year to be greater than that base year.

I'm pretty sure that I've seen people better at math than me (probably during the great furor about the initial 2020 points charts that were rescinded) who did analyze both the initial 2020 charts and the replacement (final) 2020 charts. I remember they may have found insignificant differences between the final 2020 point requirements and what the 1991 totals would have been. I don't think it's possible for them to change the charts and come out with precisely the same number each time. I was satisfied that the final 2020 charts were within reasonable difference. I wish I had a link to one of those threads - they were posted from December 2018 to February 2019, I think.

 

[JETSDAD]

I'm pretty sure that I've seen people better at math than me (probably during the great furor about the initial 2020 points charts that were rescinded) who did analyze both the initial 2020 charts and the replacement (final) 2020 charts. I remember they may have found insignificant differences between the final 2020 point requirements and what the 1991 totals would have been. I don't think it's possible for them to change the charts and come out with precisely the same number each time. I was satisfied that the final 2020 charts were within reasonable difference. I wish I had a link to one of those threads - they were posted from December 2018 to February 2019, I think.

I agree that they won't be exact and assumed that as long as it was within reason it wasn't an issue. Most resorts have the lockoff premium so really there would never be a time where that relatively small amount over the total would actually come into play (the charts I've reviewed for 2022 I've been fine with). I guess the question people would then have is what number is considered to be allowable. That's why I went through some of the POS to see what it might say about that.

 

[CarolMN]

Thank you. I knew that the comparison would have to be made to the base year rather than year to year but wasn't sure with the total points being defined on that base year if that could cause the total required in a given year to be greater than that base year.

You would compare :

• the total number of points it would take to book every room for the entire base year using the 2021 chart

with

• the total number of points it would take to book every room for the entire base year using the 2022 chart

In each case, the lock off units are counted as 2 bedrooms, not individually as studios and 1 bedrooms.

The two totals should be very close. I think being a very small percentage off would be acceptable.

 

[Cyberc1978]

IIRC DVC have the rights to increase or decrease the points compared to the base year.

question is how much they are allowed to increase/decrease? Is it up to 5% in either direction?

 

[CarolMN]

IIRC DVC have the rights to increase or decrease the points compared to the base year.

I don't believe that is true. It's not in my POS, for sure.

Again, keep in mind that the "can't increase the total points" refers to the chart comparisons using the base year. If you don't use the base year to add up all the points, you will get different totals, but those are not valid to support a violation on the part of DVCMC.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I don't believe that is true. It's not in my POS, for sure.

I could be wrong of course.

I think it was part of the discussion the last time we had changes to the point charts.

let me see if I can find it.

regards.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

You would compare :

• the total number of points it would take to book every room for the entire base year using the 2021 chart

with

• the total number of points it would take to book every room for the entire base year using the 2022 chart

In each case, the lock off units are counted as 2 bedrooms, not individually as studios and 1 bedrooms.

The two totals should be very close. I think being a very small percentage off would be acceptable.

True but there's a nuance that shouldn't be overlooked with the lockoff premium. You need to do a comparison that takes that into account too and essentially see if DVC is acting in the best interest of the membership (keeping it about the same is fairly easy to argue as increasing just adds to DVC's bottom line because the annual breakage limit is reached every year at every resort and that is the biggest gain from a lock-off premium). That is the part that members were really supposed to overlook in the original 2020 charts.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm pretty sure that I've seen people better at math than me (probably during the great furor about the initial 2020 points charts that were rescinded) who did analyze both the initial 2020 charts and the replacement (final) 2020 charts. I remember they may have found insignificant differences between the final 2020 point requirements and what the 1991 totals would have been. I don't think it's possible for them to change the charts and come out with precisely the same number each time. I was satisfied that the final 2020 charts were within reasonable difference. I wish I had a link to one of those threads - they were posted from December 2018 to February 2019, I think.

So, the question I have then is the base year is 1991, why does my RIV POS not say that?

IMO, that language is enough to give DVC some wiggle rooms in setting the charts, because high demand periods would be different dates when they adjust.

Again, the points chart year to year do not add total sold so it’s not like they are adding points being used, but I see that as a way when there are more weekends to have those extra points.

 

[CarolynFH]

So, the question I have then is the base year is 1991, why does my RIV POS not say that?

IMO, that language is enough to give DVC some wiggle rooms in setting the charts, because high demand periods would be different dates when they adjust.

Again, the points chart year to year do not add total sold so it’s not like they are adding points being used, but I see that as a way when there are more weekends to have those extra points.

That 1991 is "THE base year" was a supposition or deduction made by more learned people here on the DIS. But I suppose it could be a different year for each resort, if DVC wanted to make it that. The point is that they when they make the point charts for each year, they base it on one particular calendar year, so that the calculations to determine whether it balances or not will be based on the same number of weekdays and the same number of weekend days. It does give them a little wiggle room because the number of weekdays and the number of weekend days do vary from year to year, but I don't think it's much.

The real point of having a base year is that when people calculate the "total" number of points represented by the 2022 charts and compare that to the "total" number of points represented by 2021 charts, and get all alarmed because they differ by 25,000 points, they may not be calculating the "total" number of points the way the POS specifies. The calculations consider not only how many days are in a season but how many of those days are weekdays and how many are weekends - which may vary from year to year - and in order to keep the variance to a minimum, the base year is the one they use to count days even though 2022 and 2021 and 2020 do not in fact have the same number of each. And as long as DVC uses that base year to calculate the total number of points represented by a given year's point charts, they are in compliance with the law, because that's what the POS says they will do.

In one of the threads, @i<3riviera did some calculations using a base year that started on a Sunday and was not a leap year (several years were listed), which is probably an excellent choice as a base year. I wish I could find it, because my memory is that the percentage variance in total points between 2021 and 2022 was tiny.

 

[mdembko]

Another thing that adds confusion is that DVCMC went from a 5 season points chart to 7 travel periods. Also they added weekdays and weekend days to the last 4 travel periods from 2021 to 2022, 31 week days and 10 weekend days added. I get the base year idea, but this makes it very difficult to make any reasonable comparison with the "base year" Also for PVB since 2015 the total points have been real close to the declared number of points, not counting 2016 which was a leap year the largest variation was 2,392 in 2021(new travel periods added).

 

[Minniemoo15]

What is it that you’ve asked, exactly?

It just seems a huge difference over a week, for 2 resorts that have always been on par, to have a 15 point difference. For me that puts me out of reach of staying at my home resort, which is why I’m curious as to the discrepancy. It means my 11 month advantage is pointless.

I first sent an email to voice my displeasure about the steady rise in points for my 10 days end of feb/early March that we always travel. What cost me 246 points in 2020 will be 262 in 2022. This does not help redistribute demand like fall to summer - which I understand .. this has always been a high point time and now is just higher. As was pointed out, it used to run very closely in line with VGF points (if not a little less) but is now more.

I then sent another email asking about about the big jump in total points for 2022 and how much over the total declared points they are allowed to go.

I haven’t heard back from either email but will post any response I get. I’m mostly curious about this jump in total points and concerned that the staying power of my points is being diminished. What’s to say they don’t keep adding 25,000 more points every year ?

 

[CarolynFH]

Another thing that adds confusion is that DVCMC went from a 5 season points chart to 7 travel periods. Also they added weekdays and weekend days to the last 4 travel periods from 2021 to 2022, 31 week days and 10 weekend days added. I get the base year idea, but this makes it very difficult to make any reasonable comparison with the "base year" Also for PVB since 2015 the total points have been real close to the declared number of points, not counting 2016 which was a leap year the largest variation was 2,392 in 2021(new travel periods added).

Actually, I think I’ve been saying it wrong. DVC doesn’t “compare” one year to another, e.g., they don’t compare 2022 to 2021, and they don’t compare 2022 to the base year. When DVC calculates the total points needed to book a resort for 2022, they apply the 2022 points chart to the base year, whatever year that is.

Let’s say that the base year is 1991. I’m going to use the BWV points charts. So in the 2022 points charts, during Sept. 1-19 a standard view studio is 9 points on weekdays and 13 on weekends. When adding up the total points needed to book that room during that period, they don’t look at how many weekdays there will be during Sept. 1-19 in 2022 - they look at how many weekdays there were during that time in 1991 (or whatever the base year is). In Sept. 1-19, 1991, there were 15 weekdays, so each dedicated standard view studio at BWV is responsible for 9 x 15 = 135 points for that period. There were 4 weekend nights, so each dedicated standard view studio is also responsible for 13 x 4 = 52 points for that period, or a total of 187 points. Multiply that by the number of dedicated SV studios there are at BWV (I’m too lazy to look that up) to get the number of points required to book all the dedicated SV studios for the first season shown on the 2022 points chart.

They go through that process for every room type (at BWV that would be dedicated SV studios, dedicated BW/G/P view studios, dedicated SV 1 BR, dedicated BW/G/P view 1 BR, SV 2 BR and BW/G/P view 2 BR) for every season, and they total all that up. (I’m sure they have a lovely spreadsheet that’s way beyond my self-taught Excel skills to develop that does all those nice calculations for them.). That total is compared to the total points for the resort. And that’s the number that has to remain reasonably constant year to year.

Does that make sense? Was that helpful?

 

[CarolMN]

Actually, I think I’ve been saying it wrong. DVC doesn’t “compare” one year to another, e.g., they don’t compare 2022 to 2021, and they don’t compare 2022 to the base year. When DVC calculates the total points needed to book a resort for 2022, they apply the 2022 points chart to the base year, whatever year that is.

Exactly.

 

[Sandisw]

Actually, I think I’ve been saying it wrong. DVC doesn’t “compare” one year to another, e.g., they don’t compare 2022 to 2021, and they don’t compare 2022 to the base year. When DVC calculates the total points needed to book a resort for 2022, they apply the 2022 points chart to the base year, whatever year that is.

Let’s say that the base year is 1991. I’m going to use the BWV points charts. So in the 2022 points charts, during Sept. 1-19 a standard view studio is 9 points on weekdays and 13 on weekends. When adding up the total points needed to book that room during that period, they don’t look at how many weekdays there will be during Sept. 1-19 in 2022 - they look at how many weekdays there were during that time in 1991 (or whatever the base year is). In Sept. 1-19, 1991, there were 15 weekdays, so each dedicated standard view studio at BWV is responsible for 9 x 15 = 135 points for that period. There were 4 weekend nights, so each dedicated standard view studio is also responsible for 13 x 4 = 52 points for that period, or a total of 187 points. Multiply that by the number of dedicated SV studios there are at BWV (I’m too lazy to look that up) to get the number of points required to book all the dedicated SV studios for the first season shown on the 2022 points chart.

They go through that process for every room type (at BWV that would be dedicated SV studios, dedicated BW/G/P view studios, dedicated SV 1 BR, dedicated BW/G/P view 1 BR, SV 2 BR and BW/G/P view 2 BR) for every season, and they total all that up. (I’m sure they have a lovely spreadsheet that’s way beyond my self-taught Excel skills to develop that does all those nice calculations for them.). That total is compared to the total points for the resort. And that’s the number that has to remain reasonably constant year to year.

Does that make sense? Was that helpful?

This is extremely helpful and makes a lot of sense! So really, one has to go back and calculate it each step of the way to make sure it is truly in line if one doesn’t want to accept that a small variation just adding up total points is within the margin of acceptable.

Thanks so much!

 

[i<3riviera]

͏

 

[SL6827]

I first sent an email to voice my displeasure about the steady rise in points for my 10 days end of feb/early March that we always travel. What cost me 246 points in 2020 will be 262 in 2022. This does not help redistribute demand like fall to summer - which I understand .. this has always been a high point time and now is just higher. As was pointed out, it used to run very closely in line with VGF points (if not a little less) but is now more.

I then sent another email asking about about the big jump in total points for 2022 and how much over the total declared points they are allowed to go.

I haven’t heard back from either email but will post any response I get. I’m mostly curious about this jump in total points and concerned that the staying power of my points is being diminished. What’s to say they don’t keep adding 25,000 more points every year ?

Exactly. 25,000 this year, 20.000 more next year.........