2020 Point Charts

Yes, I just don't see how they can get around the language of section 3.3 there. It is pretty clear that it refers to points within a vacation home. I have a feeling this won't end well, but we will see I guess.
That is my argument made above. The issue is the paragraph above the one quoted has language stating the resort total only needs to remain constant. But I feel the second pragraph if interpreted your way (and the way I did originally) would suggest a more restrictive method not really contradicting.
 
Not sure I want to record it, but will take notes.

As noted you usually cannot record a conversation without the others consent. Disney when you raise anything of importance likes to call and talk on the phone rather than putting anything in writing. I have adopted the usual practice of taking notes and then writing a letter to DVC confirming what was said and agreed to in our conversation and if DVC disagrees in anyway with my letter it should respond in writing. I have never gotten a response to any of those letters. Apparently they are all trained to never respond in writing to anything. So I am left with the only valid evidence to prove what was actually said and agreed to. You might want to try that if anything is said of moment.
 
Yes, I just don't see how they can get around the language of section 3.3 there. It is pretty clear that it refers to points within a vacation home. I have a feeling this won't end well, but we will see I guess.
I think it's equally clear that that refers to the allotted points, not the points used for the reservation.
 

As noted you usually cannot record a conversation without the others consent. Disney when you raise anything of importance likes to call and talk on the phone rather than putting anything in writing. I have adopted the usual practice of taking notes and then writing a letter to DVC confirming what was said and agreed to in our conversation and if DVC disagrees in anyway with my letter it should respond in writing. I have never gotten a response to any of those letters. Apparently they are all trained to never respond in writing to anything. So I am left with the only valid evidence to prove what was actually said and agreed to. You might want to try that if anything is said of moment.

Excellent letter. I am well aware that they do not like to put anything in writing. Therefore, you might want to file a complaint with the Florida Bureau of Compliance where they will be forced to respond in writing. The following email takes you to the form for filing the complaint:

- http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/lsc/documents/complaint_english.pdf
 
I was infomed many years ago that breakage income for the resorts usually exceeds the 2.5% set-off of dues and the amount that goes to BVTC. Moreover, all that money for breakage comes to Disney with greatly reduced applicable expenses that one would normally get in doing hotel rentals. All the maintenance, repair and upkeep of the bungalows is paid out of dues charged to the members -- makes you understand why Disney thought it was a great idea to create bungalows to allow it to sell a huge amount of extra points beyond the studios to those who could afford only studios, all of which sales allowed it to recover all its construction costs plus a huge profit, gave it bungalows to put in its promo materials to the world, which can often be rented for profit and the members pay all the maintenance costs; the MBA who thought of making those part of DVC probably got a bonus; I can imagine the conversation at Disney: wouldn't it be nice to have a bunch of bungalows right on the lake to rent; no, it would cost way too much to build them and for maintenance and upkeep; no, you don't understand, I mean let's make them part of a DVC resort and have the purchasers cover all the construction costs and maintenance costs, and make them so expensive that we always get a lot to rent out for breakage income).

I remember that @drusba spotted this on DAY ONE when the Poly points charts were published. And even against all evidence, someone still thinks DVC cannot do wrong.


It is each unit that is subject to the "one-to-one use right to use right requirement ratio" of Florida law which says the timeshare unit cannot have more sold interests than that which would result in occupancy for a year.

Do you think the lockoff premium violates this "one-to-one use right to use right requirement ratio"?

@Dean, you know the details of so many timeshare systems: is something similar to the lockoff premium present in any of them?
 
If anyone is interested I have sent a letter to DVC asking it to reconsider what it has done. We will see what happens. Pertinent portions of the letter are quoted here (note not mentioned below is that I also raised, or more or less reserved the ability to later raise, that total points for resorts have been increased but did not spend time on that issue):

BWV Reallocation

At BWV, the points needed for all standard view rooms – studios, 1BRs, and 2BRs – are increased from 2019 for 2020 for every season of the year except for a one point per night decrease for 2BRs for Monday through Thursday during Dream season. The preferred (including boardwalk) view studios have remained the same for Adventure season and increased for every other season, preferred 1BRs increase in Adventure, Choice and Premier season, and decrease in Dream and Magic season. The preferred view 2BRs are decreased for all seasons except Premier season (the shortest season of the year). The Grand Villas are decreased for all seasons.

The pertinent language of §3.3 [of the BWV DVC Member Agreement] is as follows:
"In order to meet Club Members’ needs and expectations as evidenced by fluctuations in Use Day demand at the Condominium experienced by DVCMC during a given calendar year, DVCMC may, in its sole discretion, increase or decrease the Home Resort Vacation Point requirements of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home during the given calendar year…;provided, however, that the total number of Home Resort Vacation points existing within a given Unit at any time may not be increased or decreased because of such reallocation…. Any increase or decrease of the Home Resort Vacation Point Reservation requirement for a given Use Day pursuant to DVCMC’s right to make this Home Resort Vacation Point adjustment must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase for another Use day or Use days….This right to reallocate Home Resort Vacation Points is reserved by DVCMC solely for adjusting the Home resort Reservation Component to accommodate Club Member demand.

A. A Point Increase in a Vacation Home Must Be Met by a Like Point Decrease in the Same Vacation Home.
Section 3.3 provides that DVCMC may “increase or decrease the [point] requirements of a given Use Day within a given Vacation Home during a calendar year,” but if it exercises that right as to a particular use day for a particular vacation home, the change made “must be offset by a corresponding decrease or increase in another Use day or Use days.” The clear sense of that second portion is that it refers back to the first. The offset required must be for the same vacation home. Raising points for studios in one season requires DVCMC to reduce points by an equal amount for the same studios in another season or seasons. The clause does not say, as DVCMC apparently believes, that it can offset a use day increase in one vacation home, such as a studio, with a decrease in a different vacation home, such as a 2BR. If that were allowed, the section would not say the use day change made must be offset by a change in “another” use day and instead would specifically say that offsetting decrease could be in a different vacation home.

The BWV point chart proves how wrong DVCMC’s position is. It raises the points needed for all studios, and all standard 1BRs and 2BRs, for essentially every use day of the year and then attempts to offset that with decreases in different vacation homes, the preferred 2BRs and Grand Villas, for the same use days of the year. The language requiring offsetting decreases on “another” use days is inexplicably stricken from the clause by what DVCMC has done and DVCMC’s interpretation renders the applicable clause meaningless.

B. The Point Charts Improperly Change the Total Points Applicable to Each Unit.
Section 3.3 provides that the total number of points in any given unit cannot be increased or decreased by a reallocation. A unit is usually one or more contingent vacation homes. Unit is defined as meaning the same as a condominium unit and a timeshare unit in the applicable statutes. See Fl Stats. §§718.103(27), 721.05(41). It is the unit in which a purchaser gets a percentage ownership interest and a set number of points. It is the unit that is subject to the “one-to-one use right to use right requirement ratio,” §721.05(25).

That prohibition against increasing or decreasing total points applicable to a unit is consistent with the requirement that any increase or decrease of points required for use days in a particular vacation home must be met with an equal decrease or increase in the same vacation home. Such assures that the particular vacation homes in the unit do not have any changes where points are increased but not then equally decreased in other use days so as to avoid any changes in total points applicable to the unit.

BWV consists of numerous units. There are units that are applicable to the standard view rooms and different ones applicable to preferred view rooms. The BWV point chart shows that DVCMC has raised the applicable points for all standard view vacation homes that exist in all the units that have standard view vacation homes, which is not allowed by §3.3. Likewise, with the reduction of the preferred 2BR lock-offs and Grand Villas, it appears the total points applicable to units with preferred view rooms in them have improperly been decreased.


Other Reallocations
Other resorts have the same kind of improper reallocations, where DVCMC assumed it could meet point increases in one type of vacation home with decreases in another on the same use days, and could change the total points applicable to a unit.

An obvious one is the reduction of points needed to reserve AKV value 1BRs and 2BRs throughout the year (value studios remained unchanged) and thus points for those those rooms have lowered without any required increase for other use days. The value units consist of only value vacation homes. Thus, the total points applicable to those units decreased and were apparently shifted to other units, which therefore were improperly increased. The savanna view Grand Villas stayed the same for adventure and choice season but decreased for the other seasons with no required increase on any use days. At Jambo, the Grand Villas make up their own units and thus total points were necessarily decreased for those units and apparently shifted to other units. Also, the studios other than value were raised for every use day of the year and thus have no required offsetting decrease in different use days.

The changes at the Polynesian resort improperly raised studios year-round, which was met by a point decrease in the bungalows for the same (not “another) use days year-round. Moreover, the bungalows are in separate units from the studios and thus the total points applicable to each and every unit in the resort changed. The changes at BLT include having all lake view studios, 1BRs, and 2BRs, go up for almost the entire year with no required decrease on different use days. All the lake view units containing those lake view vacation homes have applicable points improperly increased. Changes at Saratoga Springs include an increase in points needed for the Treehouses, studios, 1BRs and preferred Grand Villas year-round with offsetting decreases in most of the same (not “another”) use days for 2BRs. The treehouses are their own units and thus the points applicable to those units are improperly increased. At Copper Creek, the total points for the cabins, which are their own group of units, went down and studios and 1BRs all went up with no required offsetting decreases on different use days. At Boulder Ridge and OKW studio and 1BR points increased year-round, allegedly offset by a 2BR decrease in many of the same (not “another”) use days. At VGF the same occurred and the Grand Villas, their own units, were also raised with no offsetting decrease in total points applicable to the unit. At Beach Club, studios and 1BRs went up year-round, allegedly offset by a same year-round decrease for 2BRs.

The Point Changes Appear Arbitrary
Many of the changes appear arbitrary and do not properly address a change in use day demand or accommodate Club Member demand, the required bases for making any change. The decrease in points needed for AKV value rooms is non-sensical since those rooms have tended to book full at 11 months out, i.e., no decrease was needed. DVCMC increased the points for 1BRs throughout the year at the resorts but 1BRs have usually been the last rooms to fill, i.e., they needed no increase to meet any excess demand. At SSR, OKW and AKV, 1BRs are open most of the year well beyond 7 months out, and are usually open at other resorts at 7 months out during Dream, Magic, and Premier season, and much of Adventure season, but for no discernible reason DVCMC concluded those needed an increase in points year-round to diminish demand. Studios just normally have higher demand, and despite that studios are open much of the year at SSR and OKW at 7 months out, and open at many of the other resorts at 7 months out during Dream, Magic and Premier seasons, and the majority of Adventure season, DVCMC increased their points year-round. The points needed for Grand Villas were lowered year round at BWV even though those have high demand and usually fill before 7 months out. Moreover, no change in demand could possibly be accomplished by lowering high point Grand Villas year round by only two points per week. It does not appear DVCMC even considered differences in demand during the seasons in making changes. It appears that the main objective of this reallocation was not to address changes in demand or to accommodate Club Member demand, but simply to raise, without a reasonable basis for doing so, the points needed year-round for studios and 1BRs.

I just wanted to say THANK YOU for this letter - clicking "Like" just wasn't sufficient. I believe it's a very clear statement of the legal issues, and I hope (but don't really expect) that DVC will respond in like kind. Looking forward to hearing from you if/when they respond.
 
Except it won't be status quo. I agree that it probably won't shift much for people's villa size nor seasons but that we'll have to see.

However, unless you're an owner that goes in Magic Season and stays in a 2BR it's very likely you'll be using more points for your stay. And some won't have more points so will reduce the length of their stays. That's not status quo at all.

We have been this owner many times - 2 bed Magic but it still aggravates me. After reading "Disney War", the whole place didn't seem quite the same. I laugh inwardly when a poster gushes about what would Walt want. It hasn't been about that in decades. The parks are a cash cow. DVC is a money making machine.

For every one person complaining I can find whole threads of people jockeying for the most 'club level' rooms or obsessing over how many dessert parties can be fit in a week vacation. (What happens after they try the first crappy dessert?)

We took our DD and DSIL for two weeks in September. Looking back, I think they were embarrassed at the the $$$$ of everything (we paid for all of it). A few times they prompted us to eat offsite - it was always better and always less $$. Two weeks was too much - too mush Disney food; too much planning; too many lines; too much sun; too many broken attractions; too much $$$$.

The updated villa was lovely. The bill for the dues not so much. Many friends rent beautiful homes for a fraction of my $2,300 cost.

Too much randomness - sorry. I am less disappointed because I don't expect as much from the company as a whole. Read the book. It's an excellent eye opener.
 
Do you think the lockoff premium violates this "one-to-one use right to use right requirement ratio"?

The funny thing is the Lockoff premium acts opposite to the one to one requirement. DVC is barred from selling too many points or else there exist points that cannot be used to book a room. The Lockoff premium does the opposite. It creates the situation where there are rooms that cannot be booked on points.

Too many points is a clear legal no no. Lockoff premium is not so bad, but since disney is pocketing the extra cash... that is why owners are upset. If the cash went to offset dues then it would be okay.
 
The funny thing is the Lockoff premium acts opposite to the one to one requirement. DVC is barred from selling too many points or else there exist points that cannot be used to book a room. The Lockoff premium does the opposite. It creates the situation where there are rooms that cannot be booked on points.

Too many points is a clear legal no no. Lockoff premium is not so bad, but since disney is pocketing the extra cash... that is why owners are upset. If the cash went to offset dues then it would be okay.
While the Lockoff premium has increased it appears to always have existed in recent times. I assume they finally decided to name the phenomenon in VGF hence why it exist in its POS not others. It should be noted that I believe some sort of maximum average charge per vacation Home type exists (even if a resort doesn’t have a dedicate home of that type). So I think there is some level of protection and the 2020 point chart was meant to move us closer to that maximum average charge (maximum reallocation text). At least that is the way DVCNews and ******* interpreted in the past when new resorts were coming online.

I have a call scheduled hopefully soon with DVCMC to go over this. I think in 2020 they marginally went above the maximum average point per night marginally for some resorts, a lot for others.

Just a note the more 2 bedroom lockoffs a resort has the more advantageous it is for the owners as it increases the number of points required to book the resort (when booked as studios and 1 bedrooms) while limiting the number of points that can be sold. I believe Disney can only book rooms for cash greater than 60 days for points it has in possession (not paying dues, rofr, unsold) etc. their points are still limited by home resort advantage (they can’t use Aulani points at Boardwalk 10 months out). Also unsold rooms can’t be booked as cash if Disney has no points of its own greater than 60 days out. That is breakrage. Also all points Disney owns they pay MF fees on.
 
Just a note the more 2 bedroom lockoffs a resort has the more advantageous it is for the owners as it increases the number of points required to book the resort (when booked as studios and 1 bedrooms) while limiting the number of points that can be sold. I believe Disney can only book rooms for cash greater than 60 days for points it has in possession (not paying dues, rofr, unsold) etc. their points are still limited by home resort advantage (they can’t use Aulani points at Boardwalk 10 months out). Also unsold rooms can’t be booked as cash if Disney has no points of its own greater than 60 days out. That is breakrage. Also all points Disney owns they pay MF fees on.

Some believe that DVC can anticipate breakage and thus send the room to CRO to be reserved even prior to 60 days out.

Though the advantage may be for better availability at the resorts with lockoffs the cost is an actual cost - greater point requirements. I don't know if that is advantageous.
 
Just a note the more 2 bedroom lockoffs a resort has the more advantageous it is for the owners as it increases the number of points required to book the resort (when booked as studios and 1 bedrooms) while limiting the number of points that can be sold. I believe Disney can only book rooms for cash greater than 60 days for points it has in possession (not paying dues, rofr, unsold) etc. their points are still limited by home resort advantage (they can’t use Aulani points at Boardwalk 10 months out). Also unsold rooms can’t be booked as cash if Disney has no points of its own greater than 60 days out. That is breakrage. Also all points Disney owns they pay MF fees on.

This is an interesting way too look at it: by building a resort entirely made up of two bedroom lockoffs - and making the "lockoff premium" 30%, a resort with 5,000,000 points could take as much as 6,500,000 points to "sell out". Therefore, it would be unlikely to ever sell out under the home resort advantage, and owners would rarely have trouble getting a room (albiet maybe a 1-bedroom) before the 7-month mark.

But here's what Disney really SHOULD do to fix the demand problem - look at the ACTUAL demand by it's membership for what they WANT to rent, and build resorts with that ratio. If 40% of your membership wants studios, than a resort should have 40% of it's points in studios - whether through dedicated or lock-offs. NOT try and force those with studio points into 2-bedroom units that they can't use.

In fact, I thought maybe they were doing this with the Poly. Making a mostly-studio DVC resort to drive studio availability up in the system. But then they go and build CCV with only 9% of the points in studios....back to their old tricks, and using the cabins again to drive cash to them when the members won't use their points to rent them.

In fact, now that I think about it, I wonder if that is part of what's driving the creation of extra points via lock-off premiums. All the bungalows/cabins they built that aren't being used by members is causing an excess of unused points in the system. Maybe that's what's driving this...
 
The funny thing is the Lockoff premium acts opposite to the one to one requirement. DVC is barred from selling too many points or else there exist points that cannot be used to book a room. The Lockoff premium does the opposite. It creates the situation where there are rooms that cannot be booked on points.

Too many points is a clear legal no no. Lockoff premium is not so bad, but since disney is pocketing the extra cash... that is why owners are upset. If the cash went to offset dues then it would be okay.
But they've increased those amount dramatically. It was never about allowing bookings but about keeping one from gaining too much control and to minimize rental competition.
 
Some believe that DVC can anticipate breakage and thus send the room to CRO to be reserved even prior to 60 days out.

Though the advantage may be for better availability at the resorts with lockoffs the cost is an actual cost - greater point requirements. I don't know if that is advantageous.
I know 100% that they were able to at one time, I did not see that wording when I was going through looking at the other information.
 
I know 100% that they were able to at one time, I did not see that wording when I was going through looking at the other information.
My POS (CCV) says breakrage can only occur at 60 days prior to check in for unsold rooms. However if Disney has points they can use however they want. Which we know they own 2-4% of each resort at minimum and often more for other reasons. They have equal rights as we do for the points they own. And also the points they lockout (i.e. points not used by delinquent owners). All points Disney owns and uses are subject to all rules we are and same MF costs.
 
My POS (CCV) says breakrage can only occur at 60 days prior to check in for unsold rooms. However if Disney has points they can use however they want. Which we know they own 2-4% of each resort at minimum and often more for other reasons. They have equal rights as we do for the points they own. And also the points they lockout (i.e. points not used by delinquent owners). All points Disney owns and uses are subject to all rules we are and same MF costs.
I know I had a version that said they could anticipate breakage but the official breakage period is 60 days changeable anywhere from 30-90 based on the POS I have.
 
AK went up .... both studios and 2 bed.. didnt look at 1 bed. Planning trip for 2020, now have rework all my numbers....
 
While the Lockoff premium has increased it appears to always have existed in recent times. I assume they finally decided to name the phenomenon in VGF hence why it exist in its POS not others. It should be noted that I believe some sort of maximum average charge per vacation Home type exists (even if a resort doesn’t have a dedicate home of that type). So I think there is some level of protection and the 2020 point chart was meant to move us closer to that maximum average charge (maximum reallocation text). At least that is the way DVCNews and ******* interpreted in the past when new resorts were coming online.

I have a call scheduled hopefully soon with DVCMC to go over this. I think in 2020 they marginally went above the maximum average point per night marginally for some resorts, a lot for others.

Just a note the more 2 bedroom lockoffs a resort has the more advantageous it is for the owners as it increases the number of points required to book the resort (when booked as studios and 1 bedrooms) while limiting the number of points that can be sold. I believe Disney can only book rooms for cash greater than 60 days for points it has in possession (not paying dues, rofr, unsold) etc. their points are still limited by home resort advantage (they can’t use Aulani points at Boardwalk 10 months out). Also unsold rooms can’t be booked as cash if Disney has no points of its own greater than 60 days out. That is breakrage. Also all points Disney owns they pay MF fees on.

I disagree, the lock-off premium is a big disadvantage for owners of the resort as it allows DVC to increase the point cost of studios and 1 bedrooms that are in a lock-off without making a corresponding decrease in point cost elsewhere. Thus if units were booked in the order of studios, 1 bedrooms, everything else, that the owners of that resort would need longer be able to book 100% of the resort.

It is much safe to owner at at resort that has no lock-offs at all. My personal preference would be a resort that had only studios and 1 bedrooms, or a resort that included the lock-off but stated there will never be a lock-off premium. I absolutely hate resorts that have bungalows/cabins/point sinks in them that will never get booked, thereby screwing over all the owners of that resort.
 



















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