2008 DDP discussion, questions, rants and vents

[Colleen27]

I guess I'm confused as to why some people don't rent cars while staying on-site? Disney's transporation is problematic at times; therefore for us, we love having our own vehicle (whether it's our own or rental). We only stay on-site as we are DVC members, and always rent a car as we find it to be much more convenient than Disney transporation (as mentioned above), plus, we have had emergencies to deal with, and so having our own transportation is invaluable to us.

We don't rent a car for one reason - we don't want to drive on our Disney vacation. We drive just about everywhere in our day-to-day life (small town, very little within walking/biking distance, and we live in the car-centric Detroit area where public transit is a joke), and most of our trips are to destinations that require a car for getting around. As such, we really appreciate the break from driving on our Disney trips. And we REALLY love being able to share a bottle of wine at dinner without having to decide who will abstain to drive home! So we skip the rental car and just take cabs when the buses are impractical or too time consuming.

 

[A_NY_Outlaw]

I have been following this thread off and on, reading alot of the discussions, points and rebuttles, but I guess I'll ask the most basic question (as I'm sure someone has asked at some point)-

Is the 2008 DP cheaper or the same price as the DP that included appetizers and tip? I suppose with the rants, it appears it is the same cost if not more.

I also agree that many people will not go off site to eat- I know we won't- since we don't rent a car. It just seems to be too problematic.

 

[bicker]

Very interesting. I've followed this whole thread, and all of the other related ones, and still hear that people are saying that they are going to leave Disney property to eat, but I wonder when it actually comes time to implement this, will it actually happen?

Good point. I think your instincts are right: Disney actually has a pretty good idea, based on their experience and expertise, about what these changes will bring about, and we can rest assured that many of the effects, even some the previous poster alluded to, were intentional.

We never leave property to eat as it's a big hassle

Yes, I think that's not a major concern. Indeed, the concern has been that the restaurants are just too crowded as things are now.

The only major impact I see is that Disney will need to find some other type of incentive to fill hotel rooms -- not restaurants. And they have lots of choices. The effect of the (for pay) Dining Plan on hotel room bookings probably isn't as large as the effect of the free Dining Plan anyway, and the free Dining Plan, even with the changes, probably will have pretty-close to the same effect.

It's really all very interesting to me as I think people are fired up now, but when it comes to implementing these off-site plans in the sweltering heat, with kids in tow, I think it's going to be another whole ballgame.

Tiger

 

[Tricia1972]

I have been following this thread off and on, reading alot of the discussions, points and rebuttles, but I guess I'll ask the most basic question (as I'm sure someone has asked at some point)-

Is the 2008 DP cheaper or the same price as the DP that included appetizers and tip? I suppose with the rants, it appears it is the same cost if not more.

I also agree that many people will not go off site to eat- I know we won't- since we don't rent a car. It just seems to be too problematic.

The price of the plan is $1 Less per person per day. So yes they decreased the cost of the plan.

 

[pilferk]

I would be happy to provide the senario under which I would be losing money using the dining plan. I choose a day from my most recent trip to Disney, September 2007.

While the dining plan was free for this particular trip, I will calculate the total costs for the day assuming the Free Old Plan, Old Plan, New Plan, and Out of Pocket.

These meal choices are not theoretical, but represent how I actually ate while using the plan.

For Breakfast I used my snack credit and got a Smoothie, which was priced at $3.99. As such it was free under all dining plans and with tax would have cost me $4.25

Lunch was at the Flame Tree. I had the Salad, Frozen Lemonade, and water. I don't like straight high fructose corn syrup, caffine, nor artificial sweeteners, so I almost always order water. This meal was included, without any additional costs under all meal plans, and would have come, with tax, to $8.50. Looking back, I really didn't like the frozen lemonade and I threw most of it away. I would not buy the lemonade in the future, but would get some cole slaw. However, since I wanted to run the numbers on actual purchases, I will leave the lemonade in the equation.

Dinner found me at Le Cellier. I had the Duck Appetizer, Grilled Salmon, the free bread on the table, and water. Under the Old Meal plan, this was included in my meal plan without additional payment. Under the new plan, I would not only have to pay out of pocket for the duck $12.99, but I would also have to pay 18% gratuity on the salmon and the duck. We have a large family, and since we are a party of 6, we have to pay the 18% unless we speak to the manager, a practice which I have never had to utelize at Disney. So, my out of pocket expense would be $19.29. If I had simply purchased the same meal, with tax and gratuity, my cost would have been $41.28.

So, with Free Dining, I had no cost for the day's meals.
With the Old Dining Plan, I would have paid $41.52 for the plan + tax.
With the New Dining Plan, I would have paid $59.75 for the plan+tax+ OOP
Completely Out of Pocket, I would have paid $54.03.

Given my eating habits, love of appetizers, and dislike of desert items, I would actually spend more money using the new dining plan than if I just had the same menu and paid out of pocket.

--Eeyore's Wife

Thanks.

Couple things:

1) There's no tax on the dining plan. The daily cost is the daily cost. So your cost isn't 38.99 + tax....it's just 38.99 (using the '07 plans cost). Ditto for the '08 plan.

That means your numbers really work out to:

Free
38.99
57.28
54.03

Still a money loser for you, for sure.

2) My "issue" with the scenario (and it's not with you...you're right...you WOULD lose money!) is...well, I don't think it's representative of how MOST people use the plan or the way most people eat. It's sort of what I said before: You can certainly eat...with water at meals and no dessert, and ordering (at Flametree) the least expensive items on the menu or having your big TS meal at lunch....cheaper off the plan. But, for most people (IMHO), I think THAT would be as much "work" as people view "maximizing" the plan to be. Even for you, if you add chicken to that salad at Flametree (bumping your total by 2.13) and drinks at both meals (+ 4.90) and now you're seeing a small savings.

I was hoping for a scenario where you would use all the benefits of the plan (so drinks and dessert) and still lose money. Even using the least expensive items off the menu....

I do agree with you. You shouldn't even consider the dining plan if you're not going to use what you're paying for. The convenience isn't (IMHO) worth the premium you'd be paying.

I would also say that, with free dining this year (if it exists), I'd look long and hard at the room discounts you'd need to give up to make sure "free" is really "free".

 

[pilferk]

I still wish they had made the new ddp either /or for appie & dessert!Like many others I prefer the appies usually only things like Tiramusu win out for dessert over things like shrimp cocktail etc!! But the new plan still works for me I enjoy not having to look at the prices ,having the meal prepaid and yes I know there's tip now I wouldn't try a lot of different restaurants that I do without it!!

The "argument" against that practice (and I'm not supporting either side in this, just presenting the other side) is this:

Disney likely made the decision not simply to reduce costs, but to speed up table turnover (so they could increase volume). If you allow a choice, now you have a situation where one (or more) can order appies and share, and one (or more) can order dessert and share. Doing that means that the table turns over no quicker.

 

[pilferk]

I have been following this thread off and on, reading alot of the discussions, points and rebuttles, but I guess I'll ask the most basic question (as I'm sure someone has asked at some point)-

Is the 2008 DP cheaper or the same price as the DP that included appetizers and tip? I suppose with the rants, it appears it is the same cost if not more.

I also agree that many people will not go off site to eat- I know we won't- since we don't rent a car. It just seems to be too problematic.

It is $1 cheaper for both adults and children.

 

[Tricia1972]

I was hoping for a scenario where you would use all the benefits of the plan (so drinks and dessert) and still lose money. Even using the least expensive items off the menu....

I made a copy of my excel spreadsheet that shows where we lose a small amount of money on the plan. We 'misused' a lot of our credits, and spent them on sodas ($2 in the park) so even figuring our snacks into this formula removes $72 of our savings, leaving us with 'only' a $20 and way less food. In our minds, after 14 days of the plan, less food is a victory.

In March we are staying six nights, will eat at two 2TS restaurants and 2 1TS restaurants, as well as 6 CS meals. Because we are DVC, and eat breakfast and some lunches in the rooms. We will especially make sure we eat light meals in the room on the days we have the TS dinners.

I apologize for the small print, but this is our bottom line.

TOTAL DDP COST vs OOP COST OOP $1057.20 DDP - $1149.64 (Gratuity is added into neither of these numbers as it is not included on the plan next year)

The above figure is NOT counting a DDE discount at Pizzafari in AK because we may not receive one next year, even though we have received no official word on that at this time.

 

[pilferk]

I made a copy of my excel spreadsheet that shows where we lose a small amount of money on the plan. We 'misused' a lot of our credits, and spent them on sodas ($2 in the park) so even figuring our snacks into this formula removes $72 of our savings, leaving us with 'only' a $20 and way less food. In our minds, after 14 days of the plan, less food is a victory.

In March we are staying six nights, will eat at two 2TS restaurants and 2 1TS restaurants, as well as 6 CS meals. Because we are DVC, and eat breakfast and some lunches in the rooms. We will especially make sure we eat light meals in the room on the days we have the TS dinners.


I apologize for the small print, but this is our bottom line.

TOTAL DDP COST vs OOP COST OOP $1057.20 DDP - $1149.64 (Gratuity is added into neither of these numbers as it is not included on the plan next year)

The above figure is NOT counting a DDE discount at Pizzafari in AK because we may not receive one next year, even though we have received no official word on that at this time.

Thanks Tricia.

Just to be sure I'm reading it right: No desserts on the Adult CS meals, right? And no snacks listed? I just want to make sure I'm not missing them....

The more analysis I do, and the more numbers I see...that seems to be the sticker: Your desserts and snacks are basically what's "free", now. If you're not going to use them.....you're better off paying OOP, I think.

 

[Tricia1972]

Thanks Tricia.

Just to be sure I'm reading it right: No desserts on the Adult CS meals, right? And no snacks listed? I just want to make sure I'm not missing them....

The more analysis I do, and the more numbers I see...that seems to be the sticker: Your desserts and snacks are basically what's "free", now. If you're not going to use them.....you're better off paying OOP, I think.

Right on the desserts for Adult CS! For us that was way, way, way too much food and we skipped lots of them this trip, or took things that could travel with the intentions of eating them in the room later on. Unfortunately on the DDP we were never hungry, and gave the extra desserts to a local friend of ours the day before we left. (Her kids LOVED us!)

For snacks, I mention it in my original post, we used ours for mostly sodas. Using 6 sodas at $2 per soda for 6 days is $72, and we still experience a small OOP savings (and eat a lot less food).

I agree with you on the snacks and the desserts are where the savings are at now.

For us personally I'd probably still order the DDP and give it a shot to see how it works for us if we hadn't used it in October. Our using the plan in October gave me the knowledge to make the decision for our group if it works or not.

(One thing we may do in March, that I didn't account for, is share some CS meals. Most CS meals were either forced into our already full tummies or some went to waste because we couldn't put one more bite into our already full tummies)

Personally, for us, I think we're more grazers, and that's why DDP is not the best value for us.

 

[GreatLakes5]

The "argument" against that practice (and I'm not supporting either side in this, just presenting the other side) is this:

Disney likely made the decision not simply to reduce costs, but to speed up table turnover (so they could increase volume). If you allow a choice, now you have a situation where one (or more) can order appies and share, and one (or more) can order dessert and share. Doing that means that the table turns over no quicker.

While I'd like the choice as well (even if I had to make the choice when buying my plan i.e. go all dessert or all appie right from the get go) - I think ordering an appie probably extends a table visit more than dessert. (I've done no scientific research to back this ) Just knowing our family - if I order an appie I'd like a nice gap between being served that and being served my dinner and I eat my dinner much slower. Dessert - by that time I'm feeling full (kids need to use the bathrooms) and I don't linger over coffee or after dinner drinks so I'm rarin' to go.

Again, completely unscientific but I know we'll be gone from our table sooner without the appie.

 

[orangemonster]

Hubby and I do not drive for these reasons. We don't find it a big deal to wait for a bus... we use the time to chat and look forward to our day. There is a freedom to not driving while on vacation for us.

Also, looking for a parking spot and then hiking to the tram, finding a seat and walking to the gate is all a pain to me. Then having to reverse it all at the end of the day, makes me TIRED thinking about it. Plus, if we want to park hop, we don't have to 'go back' to the park we started at to get the car.

We enjoy an occasional adult beverage as well and it's nice to relax and know you are not driving. We've had many an enjoyable evening boat ride at the end of the day too!

There is something magical, for us, about staying on property. We feel like we really 'escape' everyday life! Everyone has different ways of vacationing, this is ours.

 

[chickie56]

I haven't read this entire thread, and this may have been covered already. When I made my DVC reservations the other day, I spoke at length with my DVC member services person. I was given the impression that a big factor in changing the dining plan was the fact that Disney "capped" the amounts that some restaurants would receive. This cut down on the wait staffs' tips. And we were not aware of this until the end of our trip last week. For instance, we had dinner at Maya Grill at Coronado. Our meal for two would have cost around $120. When looking over our receipt later on, we realized our waitress received less than $8 for her tip. Now we know why she was a terrible waitress. Anyway.....the disney wait staff apparently has a very strong union, and demanded some changes. We paid $38/day each for our dining plan, so you can bet your butt that we utilized every last credit. I doubt very much we will do the dining plan with the new changes. But I also feel terrible about not knowing about the "tip" thing at some of the restaurants.

 

[bicker]

I was given the impression that a big factor in changing the dining plan was the fact that Disney "capped" the amounts that some restaurants would receive. This cut down on the wait staffs' tips.

This was not the case at any Disney-owned restaurants. It was only the case at non-Disney restaurants (like Maya Grill).

Anyway.....the disney wait staff apparently has a very strong union, and demanded some changes.

Yes, that's my understanding as well.

 

[chickie56]

Thanks for the info bicker. Sorry if this has been asked and answered already, but how do you know what restaurants are disney owned? We encountered the same problem at the new Italy restaurant (which was excellent by the way), but since we knew to check the receipt by then, we gave the waiter extra. I need to find all my receipts from last week. We never under-tip at a restaurant. I guess I'll get over it.

 

[firechick139]

The "argument" against that practice (and I'm not supporting either side in this, just presenting the other side) is this:

Disney likely made the decision not simply to reduce costs, but to speed up table turnover (so they could increase volume). If you allow a choice, now you have a situation where one (or more) can order appies and share, and one (or more) can order dessert and share. Doing that means that the table turns over no quicker.

I absolutely never thought of this and it is a real eye-opener to me. This is an EXCELLENT point!

 

[firechick139]

Thanks for the info bicker. Sorry if this has been asked and answered already, but how do you know what restaurants are disney owned? We encountered the same problem at the new Italy restaurant (which was excellent by the way), but since we knew to check the receipt by then, we gave the waiter extra. I need to find all my receipts from last week. We never under-tip at a restaurant. I guess I'll get over it.

This is a great question. I would like to know the answer, too!

 

[peel]

FWIW, I sent an email expressing my love for the appie/dessert option. I hardly ever eat dessert, I don't have a sweet tooth. But I always get an appetizer. That is much more of an integral part of my TS meal than dessert is. Now I'll have to either pay OOP for an appetizer or not get one, even though I'll still be stuck getting a dessert I might pick at for a few minutes but did not want in the first place. Actually what I'll end up doing is not ordering dessert at all, because in my eyes wasting food is worse than wasting money.
The only reason I'm still doing the DDP is for convenience.

 

[bicker]

Thanks for the info bicker. Sorry if this has been asked and answered already, but how do you know what restaurants are disney owned?

How do "you" know? or how do "I" know?

There is no official list you can look at. Over time, folks here have made contact with the PTBs at every restaurant, for some reason or another, and such contacts have made clear which ones are Disney-owned vs. not. Perhaps the best you can do is take that list you've got for the 2008 Dining Plan and figure they're all Disney-owned, and that most (but not all) of the rest are non-Disney owned. However, by rights, it isn't something guests need to worry about.

We encountered the same problem at the new Italy restaurant

Also non-Disney-owned. You can check back in the archives and find the name of the company that owns it. They also own an Italian restaurant at Disneyland.

 

[bicker]

FNow I'll have to either pay OOP for an appetizer or not get one, even though I'll still be stuck getting a dessert I might pick at for a few minutes but did not want in the first place. Actually what I'll end up doing is not ordering dessert at all, because in my eyes wasting food is worse than wasting money.

In the two bolded phrases, above, you basically summarized the business case behind the changes Disney made for 2008.