2008 DDP and DVC

[n2mm]

I made my January 2008 reservation last week and the CM mentioned that the 2008 DDP has not been announced yet. I'll be watching to see if there are any changes, esp. since we are also DDE card holders too.

 

[Anthony1971]

With a dinner that costs (including tip) $88 dollars for 3 people paying roughly $88 for the DDP ($38.99x2 +10.99) still seems like a good deal. You basically get counter services and snacks for free. If you buy a counter service meal around $7 per adult and $3 per child you would be saving at leat $17 dollars on lunch alone. Add to that savings the cost of your 3 snacks around 2-3 dollars each your total hits around $23 per day.

I agree with you about the other reasons to like DDP. It is convenient for us and we enjoy dining at disney during our entire 10 day stay. We consider leaving disney property a hassle because we use DME to get from the airport and we don't rent a car.

The original post was assuming the DDP no longer included the tip so you would now need to pay that which would considerable reduce the savings.

On the dinning plan most 2 people can run up $100.00 bill at LeCellier when using the dinning plan making your tip more $. I think Dinsey will accomplish a few things by this one is better service and the other is poeple ordering less. I know 18% is not the big expense but when your family of 5 orders the most expensive things on the menu and does not eat half of it it can add up over the days.....

 

[hansel1]

The original post was assuming the DDP no longer included the tip so you would now need to pay that which would considerable reduce the savings.

On the dinning plan most 2 people can run up $100.00 bill at LeCellier when using the dinning plan making your tip more $. I think Dinsey will accomplish a few things by this one is better service and the other is poeple ordering less. I know 18% is not the big expense but when your family of 5 orders the most expensive things on the menu and does not eat half of it it can add up over the days.....

I was basing the numbers on JIMIA's post.

As far as Le Cellier and other more costly establishments, your base price will still be around $40 per adult. If you order $50 -$75 worth of food per person your tip will be $9-$13.50. Add the $13.50 to the cost of DDP ($40) and you will have eaten $75 worth of TS food for $53.50. That still doesn't include your counter service and snack.

Multiply that by 5 people and you would have eaten $375 worth of TS food for $267.50. Your out of pocket cost is $67.50

So with 5 adults dining you have to consider whether it is worth paying $67.50 out of pocket for Le Cellier.

IF the DDP does not include tips next year the potential savings from the above example goes from $175 to $107.50. Plus you get 5 free counter services and 5 free snacks that could be worth around $45.

 

[NMW]

The tip removal is just a rumor at this point. As is an automatic 18% tip when using the DDE card. We won't know for sure until the plan details and 2008 packages come out. I have been told "end of July", "mid-August", "any day now", and "early September" by different CM's on the release date of the packages. So, no one even seems to know WHEN they are coming out, much less if there are any changes to the DDP.

 

[discruiser]

If your reservation overlaps a new year, then the part that overlaps will be subject to the new pricing and guidelines when they come out.

For example, if someone booked the DDP for a vacation that starts in 2007 and ends in 2008 they might have two different prices and package conditions for the different time periods. The days that are in 2007 have an established DDP, but the DDP hasn't been announced for 2008. There is always a posibility disney that disney will not offer the DDP for 2008, even if you have it booked already.

This holds true for all packages and rates. Anyone who makes a room reservation for 2008 will be subject to the prices announced later on.

Actually, we are DVC members and we are staying on DVC points from 12/30-1/5. I did add the DDP to our reservation several weeks ago, and I was told by MS that since our vacation is beginning in 2007 that the 2007 price and conditions would apply to our entire vacation (even if the 2008 plan is different).

 

[salmoneous]

The 18% tip on $75 would be $13.50. $13.50 is about a 35% increase in the $38.99 price of DDP.

Jim, I agree with everything you've said - but do want to point out that the price of the dining plan is (38+38+11) = $87, so it's a 13.5% increase in costs.

To me, that makes the DDP a money loser, not a money saver for the adults in my family. As you said, the question isn't what prices are on the menu for the food you don't pay for when using the dining plan. The question is what you would pay to eat if you didn't have the plan. Sure, I could ring up a a $50 pp tab at Le Cellier and get that paid for by the plan. But there's no way in the world I would pay $50 pp to eat at Le Cellier if I had to pay for it.

Right now, for my family, the plan is about break even for adults (for kids, it's a screaming bargain no matter what they do with tips.) I enjoy getting the plan for the convince. But with an increase of 13% - or removing tips which is about the same thing - we'd skip it.

 

[rugrats2001]

I believe that the servers are currently receiving an 18% gratuity not on the menu price, but on the DDP 'value' of the TS meal. For example, if each of you orders $50 worth of food at Le Cellier, DDP doesn't pay 18% of $50, or $9 per person tip out of the $38.99 that you paid that day. It pays according to Disney's perception of what you paid for that meal. The cost of that meal would equal the daily purchase price of the DDP, less the figured cost of the CS meal & snack, divided by 1.18. Then, an 18% gratuity on that amount would be given as a tip. If Disney were indeed paying 18% on menu prices, there is no way that the DDP would be remotely profitable for them. If this tip is fine for us to currently pay when we buy through the DDP, it should be fine for us to tip the same amount if NOT included in the DDP.

 

[Dean]

I believe that the servers are currently receiving an 18% gratuity not on the menu price, but on the DDP 'value' of the TS meal. For example, if each of you orders $50 worth of food at Le Cellier, DDP doesn't pay 18% of $50, or $9 per person tip out of the $38.99 that you paid that day. It pays according to Disney's perception of what you paid for that meal. The cost of that meal would equal the daily purchase price of the DDP, less the figured cost of the CS meal & snack, divided by 1.18. Then, an 18% gratuity on that amount would be given as a tip. If Disney were indeed paying 18% on menu prices, there is no way that the DDP would be remotely profitable for them. If this tip is fine for us to currently pay when we buy through the DDP, it should be fine for us to tip the same amount if NOT included in the DDP.

I'm sure this is true. One several locations during the two weeks we've used the Disney dining plan, they rang up the full amount and then and put additional information and it showed up at less than half the price of the retail.

 

[BCV23]

I believe that the servers are currently receiving an 18% gratuity not on the menu price, but on the DDP 'value' of the TS meal. For example, if each of you orders $50 worth of food at Le Cellier, DDP doesn't pay 18% of $50, or $9 per person tip out of the $38.99 that you paid that day. It pays according to Disney's perception of what you paid for that meal. The cost of that meal would equal the daily purchase price of the DDP, less the figured cost of the CS meal & snack, divided by 1.18. Then, an 18% gratuity on that amount would be given as a tip. If Disney were indeed paying 18% on menu prices, there is no way that the DDP would be remotely profitable for them. If this tip is fine for us to currently pay when we buy through the DDP, it should be fine for us to tip the same amount if NOT included in the DDP.

I think this is incorrect. On the DDP Dining forum there have been discussions about this and servers do very well by the DDP. If your scenario was correct, their income would have fallen dramatically.

And I certainly would hope that if the gratuity is removed, no one will tip according to your formula!

 

[BCV23]

I'm sure this is true. One several locations during the two weeks we've used the Disney dining plan, they rang up the full amount and then and put additional information and it showed up at less than half the price of the retail.

Dean, could those restaurants have been owned and operated by other than Disney? There have been reports that spots like Raglan Road and Wolfgang Puck use a different formula when assigning the gratuity. But I think it is still based on a % of what is served rather than the price of DDP.

 

[Dean]

Dean, could those restaurants have been owned and operated by other than Disney? There have been reports that spots like Raglan Road and Wolfgang Puck use a different formula when assigning the gratuity. But I think it is still based on a % of what is served rather than the price of DDP.

Let me qualify my response. I was more talking to the price actually charged and not necessarily the gratuity itself. It does follow that if the dining plan division is being charged X amount, the tip would be based on X amount as well. Disney can certainly base the tip on the discounted or non discounted amount and the neither approach would surprise me. I'm trying to remember venues where I knew this this and I'm thinking it was pepper market, captain jacks, Le Cellier and at least one other. It actually happened three times at the pepper market. I think the issue at the pepper market was you can actually see the ring up. They would in put the information would flash the full amount and then that it would flash the discounted amount. I know the last time the full amount would have been something like 88 dollars and it then flashed 42.50. At the rest they actually brought the discounted paper along with the signature papers. My guess is they were not supposed to do this.

 

[JimMIA]

Jim, I agree with everything you've said - but do want to point out that the price of the dining plan is (38+38+11) = $87, so it's a 13.5% increase in costs.

Ooooops! You're right! What a stupid mistake I made! That's what I get for doing math quickly.

I don't actually compute DDP that way anyway. I compare the cost of what we would eat for TS to the price of DDP, including tips and applicable discounts on both sides. Therefore, I guess I didn't pay much attention to this math. Thanks for catching the error.

 

[JimMIA]

As far a the tip rumor goes... I still haven't seen the new contract posted anywhere.

The service trades council still has the old contract up on their website.

Until I see it in writing, I would only be guessing as to how strongly the rumor should be considered.

There have been numerous posts on the DDP board by server CM's outlining the entire chain of events. And there have also been actual contract language quotes posted, so it's pretty clear what the outcome was. The exact final outcome was that the union agreed to the removal of the gratuity from DDP in return for adding an automatic 18% gratuity to all DDE checks and reducing the threshhold for automatic gratuities on larger parties from 8 to 6.

What is not clear is how Disney will implement the changes. The removal of the DDP gratuity language is worded basically as a trial program, with Disney holding the right to make it temporary or permanent. So they could remove the gratuity, and if that resulted in lower participation, they could put it back in. Or they could remove it only from Free DDP, for example.

The new contract takes effect on 1/1/2008, and that is probably the reason why the old contract is posted on the website. They still have half a year to go under the old contract, and it is that contract that governs all their activities for the rest of the year.

 

[JimMIA]

Dean, could those restaurants have been owned and operated by other than Disney? There have been reports that spots like Raglan Road and Wolfgang Puck use a different formula when assigning the gratuity. But I think it is still based on a % of what is served rather than the price of DDP.

The gratuity received by the restaurant staffs comes from two sources. DDP pays the restaurant 18% of what DDP calculates the value of the TS meal to be. They have a standard value, which is about $25, so they would pay the restaurant roughly $4.50 for each TS credit redeemed regardless of the menu price of the meal.

The Disney-owned restaurants make up the difference between 18% on the menu price and what DDP pays them. So, if two adults ate at Le Cellier and the bill was $75, DDP would pay $9.00 and the restaurant would pay $4.50 to make up the difference between the $13.50 tip and what DDP paid them.

Some of the non-Disney restaurants apparently only pay their staffs what Disney pays them. So in the above example, the staff would only get $9.00 instead of $13.50. There have been a number of reports of those staff members making it abundantly clear to guests that they did not feel they were getting a fair tip...and it was up to the guest to make up the difference.

 

[BCV23]

Jim, thanks for the explanation.

 

[starbox]

The biggest issue for us with the DDP and no inclusive gratuity is that the DDP artifically inflates the bill. Every good waiter knows that you push appetizers, drinks, and desserts to run up the bill because you'll get a bigger tip. I once had a table run up over a 500$ just in alcohol .

In order to just break even on the cost of the DDP without tip, you'll have to order the included appetizers and desserts - then, you'll be stuck with needing to pay 18-20% of an inflated bill at most TS restaurants - which is going to add up FAST. DDP w/out tip will end up causing most normal families to spend much more OOP than they would without the plan - either that, or (I suspect) most wait staff will get shafted on most of their tips. If you think service is bad now, just wait. Dropping the tip is a phenomenally bad move, and I hope it does not happen.

 

[Pamjr]

I thought the DDP included tips and tax

 

[cobbler]

I thought the DDP included tips and tax

It does, for now, but the tip removal is a rumor for next years DDP.

Just think of how many people that aren't up on this as much as the Dis'ers are. I think those that aren't, and use the DDP when they go - frequently or not - will think the tip is probably still included. That may mean a lot of servers will get nothing.

 

[Pamjr]

It does, for now, but the tip removal is a rumor for next years DDP.

Just think of how many people that aren't up on this as much as the Dis'ers are. I think those that aren't, and use the DDP when they go - frequently or not - will think the tip is probably still included. That may mean a lot of servers will get nothing.

Disney will have to do something about it when they sell it. If I call for the DDP after they remove the tip and tax then they will have to tell me it is no longer included. Further, when we are seated for the first year or so they need to have a printed notice tastefully done that is placed on the cover of each menu or something at the tables where they reserverd their DDP.

What I'm unclear about is if the price is going up, staying the same, coming down etc.

Also, I read someones post who is concerned about the tip getting higher. You're not supposed to tip on alcohol and tax anyway, right? I actually do as it's easier for me to just glance the total add 10 % and double it (I'm a 20% tipper).

I don't know but outside of the cost going up this doesn't seem to be such a big deal.

 

[salmoneous]

I don't know but outside of the cost going up this doesn't seem to be such a big deal.

I don't how how big a deal this is, but I think losing tips on the DDP would be a shame, and not just because of the cost impact.

Personally, I hate the whole tipping system. It doesn't do what it's supposed to do - create better service. All it seems to do is pass the cost of paying certain employees off employers and onto (some but not all) customers. Wouldn't it be better if the employers would just pay employees what they are worth and charge all customers a bit more to cover it? Well, that's exactly what the DDP did.