You're not GAY... you're NUTZ!

[MrVisible]

I am very interested in having this discussion with you but perhaps to avoid the name calling that people like Rick obviously can not refrain from that we discuss this offline. PM me and we can discuss a more suitable less hostile forum for our discussion.

You've stated your opinion in public. I believe it should be debated in public.

If someone on here offends you, ignore them. They have a right to say what they want, too.

Personally, I believe in setting a good example. Let's just talk.

 

[discernment]

How am I rationalizing? I'm relating my experiences to you. I'm telling you what happened. You either believe me or you don't. If you don't believe me, you think I'm a liar.

You believe something about me, that "your lifestyle is a choice you made long ago." I'm telling you that that is wrong. I remember my childhood, and no such event took place. There was no choice involved.

Am I lying, or are you wrong?

This is not an either/or choice.

I think you honestly believe in why you think you are gay.

There was a choice involved when you acted upon your homosexual urges. You chose that path. No one made you act upon those urges. You did so on your own free will.

Like I said, sorry but i had to respond, lets take this offline.

 

[RickinNYC]

What is frustrating is to be invited into a conversation and then for that same person to sit there and insult you. First Rick says I wouldnt have the courage to come here and now he blasts me and insults me for showing up.

Who is truly interesting in an honest dialougue and not just name calling.

Dont blame Sonno, place the blame on people such as Rick that invite a discussion but start off with some angry rhetoric.

I am very interested in having this discussion with you but perhaps to avoid the name calling that people like Rick obviously can not refrain from that we discuss this offline. PM me and we can discuss a more suitable less hostile forum for our discussion.

You can make inflammatory comments but no one else can? Or are you going to start spouting off that nonsense that the group that demands the most tolerance is the least tolerant? Or perhaps you want to bring up your NAMBLA comment once again and do your best to convince others that this particular group is representative of the gay community as a whole?

I did invite you here. I never told you I was going to play nice.

 

[RickinNYC]

This is not an either/or choice.

I think you honestly believe in why you think you are gay.

There was a choice involved when you acted upon your homosexual urges. You chose that path. No one made you act upon those urges. You did so on your own free will.

Like I said, sorry but i had to respond, lets take this offline.

Don't take it offline. I think everyone would love to know more about how your line of thinking works.

 

[discernment]

You've stated your opinion in public. I believe it should be debated in public.

If someone on here offends you, ignore them. They have a right to say what they want, too.

Personally, I believe in setting a good example. Let's just talk.

If you are truly interested in an honest dialogue then it should not matter if its public or private. Our discussion will flow much better in another forum without the constant people butting in just to engage in name calling and hurling out insults.

 

[Nisa]

I don't need to be reminded of the intolerance of our world. I live in NC and see/hear it every day. I come to these boards (specifically the Gay & Lesbian board) in hopes that I don't have to debate my life and to get my Disney fix. I would hope all who visit here would, at least, be tolerant and not to just come to pick a fight. The DIS boards, for me, are a happy place. So...I will avoid these type discussions from now on. It's pretty sad but these type arguments can't be "won". Love to all who continue to fight for us.

Have a great day!

 

[discernment]

You can make inflammatory comments but no one else can? Or are you going to start spouting off that nonsense that the group that demands the most tolerance is the least tolerant? Or perhaps you want to bring up your NAMBLA comment once again and do your best to convince others that this particular group is representative of the gay community as a whole?

I did invite you here. I never told you I was going to play nice.

At least quote me right.

I said NAMBLA is a homosexual organization. Isnt it? Yes or No?

I never said that NAMBLA is representative of the entire gay community.

And its true, some of the most intolerant people I have ever come across claim to be the most tolerant. Look in that other thread where I was called a homophobe, clansman, bigot, extremist, hate filled, part of a godhatesfags group, etc. These names were all hurled by people that claim to be tolerant.

You can play however you feel. But it shows your motives of having me come here. You wanted me to come here so people could give me "what for".

You are not interested in any civil discourse on this matter. You would prefer the name calling.

 

[RickinNYC]

At least quote me right.

I said NAMBLA is a homosexual organization. Isnt it? Yes or No?

I never said that NAMBLA is representative of the entire gay community.

And its true, some of the most intolerant people I have ever come across claim to be the most tolerant. Look in that other thread where I was called a homophobe, clansman, bigot, extremist, hate filled, part of a godhatesfags group, etc. These names were all hurled by people that claim to be tolerant.

You can play however you feel. But it shows your motives of having me come here. You wanted me to come here so people could give me "what for".
You are not interested in any civil discourse on this matter. You would prefer the name calling.

I wanted other gay/lesbian people on the DIS realize that not everyone that visits the boards are as open minded and accepting and caring as those that regularly post here. My point has been proven.

ETA, if you can't handle other people getting angry at your comments when you KNOW your comments are inflammatory, then I suggest you keep your comments to your self.

 

[MrVisible]

This is not an either/or choice.

I think you honestly believe in why you think you are gay.

There was a choice involved when you acted upon your homosexual urges. You chose that path. No one made you act upon those urges. You did so on your own free will.

Like I said, sorry but i had to respond, lets take this offline.

So you concede that I had homosexual urges that were not my choice, then? Let's establish that first.

And I only debate these things in public. You posted your opinions in a public forum. If they're worthy of defense, that is where you should defend them.

 

[L107ANGEL]

If you are truly interested in an honest dialogue then it should not matter if its public or private. Our discussion will flow much better in another forum without the constant people butting in just to engage in name calling and hurling out insults.

Whats wrong? Not getting the results you want so you are going to take your ball and go home now?

 

[discernment]

So you concede that I had homosexual urges that were not my choice, then? Let's establish that first.

And I only debate these things in public. You posted your opinions in a public forum. If they're worthy of defense, that is where you should defend them.

I will answer this and then be done with the public discussion. Because if you are truly interested in this discussion then it shouldnt matter where we have it. I am willing to defend my position publicly but to have a straight forward fluid conversation then we must eliminate those that are here just to hurl insults and have no interest in a rational, calm manner. Those that have trouble controlling their anger.

I believe that your homosexual urges were a product of your environment and upbringing. They were not a product of some genetic predisposition.

Again, you chose to act upon those urges. You have always had a choice. You picked the path that you went down.

 

[discernment]

Whats wrong? Not getting the results you want so you are going to take your ball and go home now?

See exhibit A

I am asking for a rational discussion but people come in here and want to make snide remarks like this.

Have you anything intelligent and rational to add to this?

 

[L107ANGEL]

I will answer this and then be done with the public discussion. Because if you are truly interested in this discussion then it shouldnt matter where we have it. I am willing to defend my position publicly but to have a straight forward fluid conversation then we must eliminate those that are here just to hurl insults and have no interest in a rational, calm manner. Those that have trouble controlling their anger.

I believe that your homosexual urges were a product of your environment and upbringing. They were not a product of some genetic predisposition.

Again, you chose to act upon those urges. You have always had a choice. You picked the path that you went down.

Its not a choice!

 

[L107ANGEL]

See exhibit A

I am asking for a rational discussion but people come in here and want to make snide remarks like this.

Have you anything intelligent and rational to add to this?

Ok, fair enough, you keep saying that this is a choice. I completely disagree. Why would a rational person choose to lead a lifestyle that others view in the same light as being a pedophile? That thought process would be NUTS!
Disclaimer: Those aren't my views, that is our own Discerns words.

 

[MrVisible]

I will answer this and then be done with the public discussion. Because if you are truly interested in this discussion then it shouldnt matter where we have it. I am willing to defend my position publicly but to have a straight forward fluid conversation then we must eliminate those that are here just to hurl insults and have no interest in a rational, calm manner. Those that have trouble controlling their anger.

I'm disappointed. My terms were that you stuck it out to a resolution. A few hecklers, and you're cutting and running. Not a very good showing for your side, old boy. Here's a tip: they're just words on a screen. Nobody's hurling anything at you, nobody's threatening your life. If you don't want to read somthing somebody posts, check the username on the post first, and skip over it if you will.

You make these claims in public, you defend them in public. Secrecy only benefits you. I have everything to gain by debating in public.

If you leave, I'm calling this one a win for our side. Just so you know.

I believe that your homosexual urges were a product of your environment and upbringing. They were not a product of some genetic predisposition.

Again, you chose to act upon those urges. You have always had a choice. You picked the path that you went down.

Now that we've established that, whether it's genetic or not, most homosexuals didn't choose their orientation, we can move on to the question of the choice to engage in homosexual activity. By which I assume you mean gay sex, and not shopping.

Let me pose you a question. My partner and I have been together for five years. In October, we're having a ceremony where we will be promising ourselves to each other for life, because we want to be there to love and to care for each other no matter what.

Neither of us have the slightest interest in women.

Our choices were:

1) Be together, make each other happy, love each other, and be faithful to each other, and do our best together to make the world a better place.

2) Ignore the fact that we'd both found someone to love, someone who needed us, someone who could be with us for the rest of our lives, and be miserable and celibate.

3) Fake heterosexual relationships by lying to our wives about our desire for them, and build our lives on deceiving people who love us.

Which should we have chosen?

Keep in mind that our relationship makes our families happy as well. Especially my mom; she's always been worried that I'd be alone all my life, and she just loves my partner immensely. She even taught him to knit.

 

[imsorry]

To Discern (or whatever your name is)

Why would someone choose a life style that is so fraught with difficulty?

I don't think it is a choice at all; it is decided before you are born. I have read that when a woman is pregant, sometimes there is a hormonal imbalance that effects the developing baby. I think life is difficult enough without small minded people handing out judgement on everyone who crosses their path.

No one is asking you to change the way you live your life. Why can't you live and let live?

 

[MrVisible]

Ok, fair enough, you keep saying that this is a choice. I completely disagree. Why would a rational person choose to lead a lifestyle that others view in the same light as being a pedophile? That thought process would be NUTS!
Disclaimer: Those aren't my views, that is our own Discerns words.

You missed the part where discernment conceded that it's not a choice.

I believe that your homosexual urges were a product of your environment and upbringing. They were not a product of some genetic predisposition.

Seeing as nobody has established whether homosexuality is genetic, environmental, or a combination of the two (and most research is leaning heavily toward the combination theory), I feel that it's a significant concession on his part, and an indication that he's genuinely open-minded about this subject.

Let's see how it plays out.

 

[discernment]

I'm disappointed. My terms were that you stuck it out to a resolution. A few hecklers, and you're cutting and running. Not a very good showing for your side, old boy. Here's a tip: they're just words on a screen. Nobody's hurling anything at you, nobody's threatening your life. If you don't want to read somthing somebody posts, check the username on the post first, and skip over it if you will.

You make these claims in public, you defend them in public. Secrecy only benefits you. I have everything to gain by debating in public.

If you leave, I'm calling this one a win for our side. Just so you know.


Now that we've established that, whether it's genetic or not, most homosexuals didn't choose their orientation, we can move on to the question of the choice to engage in homosexual activity. By which I assume you mean gay sex, and not shopping.

Let me pose you a question. My partner and I have been together for five years. In October, we're having a ceremony where we will be promising ourselves to each other for life, because we want to be there to love and to care for each other no matter what.

Neither of us have the slightest interest in women.

Our choices were:

1) Be together, make each other happy, love each other, and be faithful to each other, and do our best together to make the world a better place.

2) Ignore the fact that we'd both found someone to love, someone who needed us, someone who could be with us for the rest of our lives, and be miserable and celibate.

3) Fake heterosexual relationships by lying to our wives about our desire for them, and build our lives on deceiving people who love us.

Which should we have chosen?

Keep in mind that our relationship makes our families happy as well. Especially my mom; she's always been worried that I'd be alone all my life, and she just loves my partner immensely. She even taught him to knit.

I didnt realize this was a win/lose type deal. In your initial request you said that you wanted to have a discussion about this. You didnt say that it had to be in public.

If you are truly wanting to hear my viewpoint and not just interested in others supporting your position then my invitation always stands. PM me when you are ready to engage.

I am running from nothing. Claim some sort of hollow victory if you like.

If your purpose was to truly understand my position then you are the one that has lost something when I am reaching out to you asking for a discussion.

 

[DLBDS]

Straight girl, here. I was scanning the main forum and this thread caught my eye. I saw that it was under the Gay & Lesbian at Disney forum but proceeded anyway. I've only looked at the first couple of pages to this thread so I don't know what most views/responses have been posted. Let me just preface this by saying that I don't have anything against "gay" folks. I believe in gay marriage. And I've always thought a gay guy would make the perfect friend for a straight girl (like myself). Alas, I don't know any gay people.....that I know of. However, I have wondered about a few folks I've met. NOW.....I have 2 opinions on why gays are gay. #1 being that it's a birth defect. Nothing to be done about it. It is what it is. #2....and this one may seem a little, well, out there.....humans are evolving into something that's, well, else. Don't know what. But there ya go. Don't know where God fits into all this as I'm not really into the whole religious thing. Just my .02 worth. Hope I haven't offended anyone with my opinions. It certainly wasn't my intent to do so.

 

[MrVisible]

Here were the terms I proposed:

discernment, I have cogent, coherent and well-reasoned and supported arguments for each and every one of the points you made. I'll be happy to engage in a debate on this issue. However, I would like to set up the rules of engagement first.

If you want to argue this with me, first of all I want assurance that you are capable of changing your mind on this issue. I really don't want to go through all of the research and rhetoric that this takes just to end up against the brick wall of entrenched dogma. Ask yourself if you are, in fact, able to change your opinion on this. If not, no harm done, and no words will be wasted.

Secondly, I would like you to commit to seeing this argument through to its end. It's been my experience on other message boards that once it seems that the argument is going against them, people who have opinions similar to yours tend to vanish in a puff of tautology and bluster, only to resurface and repost the same tired and debunked arguments again within weeks. Are you willing to stay until we come to some sort of resolution on this?

For my part, I will assure you that I will conduct myself politely, respectfully, and will address your points with well-reasoned arguments supported by facts. I will consider your points carefully, and be willing to change my mind if you are persuasive enough. And I will persist in this conversation until we both agree that one of us has changed our minds, or we both agree that it's a stalemate.

I'm also open to considering any rules that you would like to establish.

You seem like an intelligent person with a solid viewpoint. I think we could have a very enjoyable debate.

But I've put too much effort in the past into these conversations, only to have them come to naught. Let's you and I avoid that, and have ourselves an old-fashioned, public forum, formal debate.

See this argument through to its end, which we both agree on. Public forum.

Debates are a win/lose proposition. They're even scored on a college level.

Now, are you ready to grow a thicker skin and address the polite, cogent and rational arguments I've made, or are you going to cut and run? You've been threatening to leave for two pages now.

If you're leaving, leave.

Keep in mind that, by the rules laid out, if you leave, you lose.