You're not GAY... you're NUTZ!

Straight guy here...reading this and I'm completely dumbfounded by the ignorance shown with regards that being gay is a choice...is it my choice to love woman or was I born to love woman...why do we need to discuss this...does it affect your life when two woman or two men love each other...it doesn't affect mine...let it go...gays/lesbians don't question our so called "normal" lifestyles...why do we ned to question their lifestyle...John Lennon said it best:

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


Live your life the best you can and let others live their's.
 
MrVisible said:
Here were the terms I proposed:


See this argument through to its end, which we both agree on. Public forum.

Debates are a win/lose proposition. They're even scored on a college level.

Now, are you ready to grow a thicker skin and address the polite, cogent and rational arguments I've made, or are you going to cut and run? You've been threatening to leave for two pages now.

If you're leaving, leave.

Keep in mind that, by the rules laid out, if you leave, you lose.

As I said, I looked at this as an exchange of ideas looking to hear one anothers position. I did not and will not look upon this as a debate.

Seems to me that you are more interested in your mind at your concept of "winning" some kind of "debate" more than you are in a rational exchange of ideas. That alone speaks volumes of your motives. Any exchange of ideas is not just merely a win/lose proposition. It is more of a win/win because hopefully you walk away with some sort of insight into another person's position.

Indeed this will be my last post on this thread. PM me if you are really insterested in further discussion. I will await you response or lack thereof.
 
MrVisible, looks like you won the debate whether he's willing to admit that it was a debate or not. Congrats! :cool1:
 
MrVisible said:
Let me pose you a question. My partner and I have been together for five years. In October, we're having a ceremony where we will be promising ourselves to each other for life, because we want to be there to love and to care for each other no matter what.

Neither of us have the slightest interest in women.

Our choices were:

1) Be together, make each other happy, love each other, and be faithful to each other, and do our best together to make the world a better place.

2) Ignore the fact that we'd both found someone to love, someone who needed us, someone who could be with us for the rest of our lives, and be miserable and celibate.

3) Fake heterosexual relationships by lying to our wives about our desire for them, and build our lives on deceiving people who love us.

Which should we have chosen?

Keep in mind that our relationship makes our families happy as well. Especially my mom; she's always been worried that I'd be alone all my life, and she just loves my partner immensely. She even taught him to knit.
Great question!

I'm a straight woman and I certainly would not want to be married to a man who is gay and only living a lie. I can't imagine the heartbreak it would cause an entire family. You get married, have children and put on a happy face. Inside you are miserably unhappy. So one day you decide you've had enough of the lies and you fall in love with another man. Now there are children who are being hurt as well.

Why on earth would anyone expect someone who doesn't have control of their sexuality to live a lie just for the sake of not offending others who are ignorant??
 

mimimom said:
unfortunately there is always more than one in every crowd. My son came out to us in February. He is still the wonderful young man he was before that time. Yes I had a hard time absorbing it(even though we had suspected he was for a while)We love him with all of our being. He even says to us" I didnt ask to like boys" I am just glad we are the type of parents who are open and accepting so my son doesnt have to hide in shame. Thanks for listening Mimimom


This is a very heartwarming post. You still love your son...that is all he wants, I'm sure. My DD has a friend that is gay and his parents are trying to get him into a psychologist to turn him straight. I have not seen this young man in over 2 years. I hope he is doing okay. His brother, a body builder, has repeatedly beat the crap out of him for liking boys.
He can't change who he is anymore than we can. What we can change is the way we think. Why can't people accept that?
 
discernment said:
As I said, I looked at this as an exchange of ideas looking to hear one anothers position. I did not and will not look upon this as a debate.

Seems to me that you are more interested in your mind at your concept of "winning" some kind of "debate" more than you are in a rational exchange of ideas. That alone speaks volumes of your motives. Any exchange of ideas is not just merely a win/lose proposition. It is more of a win/win because hopefully you walk away with some sort of insight into another person's position.

Indeed this will be my last post on this thread. PM me if you are really insterested in further discussion. I will await you response or lack thereof.
I specifically stated this was a debate in the proposition I first posted. I'm sick of people posting incendiary statements about me and people I love and then claiming it's some sort of public service. Stand behind your opinions, back them up with facts, or they're not worthy of being posted in a public forum where people might read them and think you have some sort of rational point.

I'd like to conclude this little demonstration of the absurdity of the anti-gay contingent with an inevitable "I told you so" moment. From my first post:
It's been my experience on other message boards that once it seems that the argument is going against them, people who have opinions similar to yours tend to vanish in a puff of tautology and bluster, only to resurface and repost the same tired and debunked arguments again within weeks.
Shine a light on the bad guys, and they scurry for the shadows like roaches.

I hereby declare this debate an unconditional win for the side of Good, Love, Peace, Light, and Rationality.

Celebrate in the manner of your choice.
 
MrVisible said:
I hereby declare this debate an unconditional win for the side of Good, Love, Peace, Light, and Rationality.

Celebrate in the manner of your choice.

I second that!

And I plan on celebrating by giving my partner a smooch. Thanks for another opportunity to do so Discernment!
 
People like discernment really make me sick, why can't they just leave us alone what are they scared of.... i don't get it.

And all the talk about god .... do you really think that god (if there is one) would only approve of a love between a man and a women? I don't think so the most important thing is to love someone be it a man or a women that is what god would want. All the things all the anti-gay's are refering to, bible, scriptures are written by men and not by god so how do you know what god really wants?

@mrvisible i admire your calm and rational manner of discussioning this things with people like discern... i could never to that they really make me mad.

Well what would interst me is did people like discernment chose to be so intolerant and hateful or is it in their gens) :confused:

thanx fo letting me vent...
 
I hope Discernment comes back, because I want him to hear my story...

I am the son of a Fundamentalist minister and still consider myself a strong Christian and a person of deep faith. I knew from puberty that I was attracted to men, and as I got older I saw my older brother come out and deal with all of the repercussions -- which included my father, who had just concluded a year-long-affair with a parishioner, telling my brother that he was going to get AIDS, die, and burn in Hell. (As opposed to Dear Old Dad, whose sin was at least, in his words, "normal" and subject to forgiveness by God).

I thought I was lucky: even though all of my sexual fantasies were about men, I liked women, too. I figured that marrying a woman would work out fine, and I could just continue to suppress my desire for men. My thinking was, monogamy is monogamy, and if you get married you're not supposed to have sex with anyone, no matter what gender, so everything would be fine. So I got married as a good, Christian, 27-year-old virgin. The good news is I ended up with three terrific kids. The bad news is, the marriage ended up being a disaster.

So we finally got divorced for reasons that were unrelated to my sexuality (which my ex knew nothing about). I finally started living my life as the person God created me to be, and to my mind, doing anything differently is blasphemy. I have been in a relationship for the last year with a man whom I truly consider my soul mate -- which I never felt about my wife, even in the best of times. We have an honesty, a commitment, and a channel of communication that far surpasses anything I ever experienced in my marriage. The kids love my partner and look to him as a second dad, and as a family we could not be happier. We go to a gay-friendly church where we are all welcomed and loved, and where I can hold my partner's hand during services and bask in God's love.

I say all this for a few reasons. Yes, with some gay people there is an element of "choice." But the choice, where it exists, is just whether or not to live an honest and fulfilling life -- not whether you are gay or straight. My brother could not be with women at all; I could, but that was not something I was designed to do or have any interest in. My "choice" to try to live straight hurt many people, and I have lost friends not because of my sexuality, but because of what they perceived as my deceit. Second, my first sham marriage was more of a threat to marriage as an institution than my current relationship could possibly be. Third, I understand the belief that homosexuality is "wrong" -- I believed it and internalized it for years, which plunged me into self-hatred and depression. I don't think it's homophobic to have a personal moral belief that homosexuality is a sin. But there needs to be some perspective. Jesus didn't say a word about homosexuality, much less gay marriage. He did, however, preach against divorce, and in fact limited the acceptable grounds for divorce to adultery. I don't hear a lot of rhetoric from the Right Wingers about how the Constitution should be amended to prohibit divorce except in the case of adultery. Why not?

At the end of the day, it's about respect. Jesus said the only two commandments were to love God and love others. And for all the talk about Sodom, the reason it was destroyed had nothing to do with sexuality: it was about the mistreatment of, and lack of hospitality towards, others. (Exekiel 16:49-50: “Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.”)

Discernment, I didn't "choose" to be gay, and you didn't "choose" to be straight. What we can choose, however, is whether to treat everyone -- even people who are different from us, even people with whom we have strong disagreements -- with dignity and respect.
 
So we’re called -diseased, crazy, sinners,
Lumped in with murderers, rapists, and pedophiles.

And a few strong opinions are lobbed the other way-
And one (sonno) two (discernment) are gone? Poof?

And they call us Nancy Boys.

Shame really, when I OPed I just thought it was an odd and kind of ridiculous story ... "another brick in the wall" as they say.

But the discourse was interesting.

Sorry it ended in a “whimper” :sad1:
 
Can I just congratulate Mr Visible for conducting his side of the debate (or exchange of views or whatever!) in such a calm and rational manner? :thumbsup2

Another troll goes scurring off into the undergrowth!!!! :rotfl: :dance3:
 
Doctor Pedantic said:
Discernment, I didn't "choose" to be gay, and you didn't "choose" to be straight. What we can choose, however, is whether to treat everyone -- even people who are different from us, even people with whom we have strong disagreements -- with dignity and respect.


Amen. And thanks for sharing your story. I find myself caught up in the whole "choice" argument when really whether homosexuality is a choice doesn't even matter.

Why must some people fight so hard to oppress others? Why do some people make it their goal in life to deny others life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Two homosexuals in love, living monogamously, raising their family--in what possible way is that harmful to society? How would that threaten my blessed and happy heterosexual marriage? Why wouldn't I want my homosexual friends and family to experience the same joys that I have? Are we as a society so selfish and hateful to think only certain people get to live out their lives as they see fit?

Why don't people who want to deny homosexuals their rights ever answer these questions? Discernement? Sonno? Anyone?
 
Mr Visable, I'm sorry I didn't see this thread sooner. Sadly the person you asked to debate you has a reputation for taking discussion down the path he wants it to go down, logic or rules of debate be damned. Your well-intentioned debate was doomed from the beginning, I'm afraid. To debate you need honesty on both sides, and there is no honesty with discernment.
 
wallyb said:
So we’re called -diseased, crazy, sinners,
Lumped in with murderers, rapists, and pedophiles.

And a few strong opinions are lobbed the other way-
And one (sonno) two (discernment) are gone? Poof?

And they call us Nancy Boys.
Shame really, when I OPed I just thought it was an odd and kind of ridiculous story ... "another brick in the wall" as they say.

But the discourse was interesting.

Sorry it ended in a “whimper” :sad1:


ROFL! :rotfl:
 
I just wanted to offer my support to all the posters here who have to put up with this discriminatory nonsense every day.

I don't understand how in the US, where there is supposed to be a seperation of church and state, homosexual marriages or civil unions are not allowed, while in the UK (where our head of state is head of the church!! - and we do have a common religion, regardless of our mixed culture) civil unions for homosexual couples is totally legal!

Not to mention that, as others have said, the most important thing is to love others and to love God (if we're looking at Christianity here).
 
DisneyDotty said:
Amen. And thanks for sharing your story. I find myself caught up in the whole "choice" argument when really whether homosexuality is a choice doesn't even matter.

Why must some people fight so hard to oppress others? Why do some people make it their goal in life to deny others life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Two homosexuals in love, living monogamously, raising their family--in what possible way is that harmful to society? How would that threaten my blessed and happy heterosexual marriage? Why wouldn't I want my homosexual friends and family to experience the same joys that I have? Are we as a society so selfish and hateful to think only certain people get to live out their lives as they see fit?

Why don't people who want to deny homosexuals their rights ever answer these questions? Discernement? Sonno? Anyone?

Because doing so elevates themselves to a higher level in their own mind in an attempt to make up for whatever their shortcomings might be. It's human nature for the less intelligent to find one single factor in someone else's life and focus on that and do their best to attack it. It makes them feel vindicated doing so.

If only I could remind myself of this and then I'd pity homophobes, not be disgusted by them.
 
Can someone explain the Gay Pride Parades to me?
 
This is my first post here - I came to understand more about DVC and happened to see this thread. Right now (and I am an extremely sensitive person, so perhaps this means nothing) I am in tears. I can't, just can't understand why individuals are so incredibly narrow minded when in comes to the subject of homosexuality. I am straight, AND catholic, and believe that we are ALL EQUAL regardless of sexual preference.

These men and women who grew up feeling different and now know it was because they were/are homosexual - we're telling them that they are wrong? That they did have a choice, they just made the wrong one?????

I can't understand how people can claim to be friends with anyone who is homosexual, but say they disagree with the lifestyle. It isn't like saying, "Jane smokes, and I don't agree with it, but we can still be friends." Because Jane can put out her cigarette and you and she can have a nice time together. But if you don't agree with someone's sexual preference, then you honestly don't understand that individual. If you don't understand them, they you aren't a true friend.

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers, but my cousin Jeff is gay, and is the most fantastic man in the entire world. He deserves every chance he can get, and with people out there willing to put him down because of a choice he never got to make...

It makes me very, very sad. Thanks for listening.
 
amykissangel said:
This is my first post here - I came to understand more about DVC and happened to see this thread. Right now (and I am an extremely sensitive person, so perhaps this means nothing) I am in tears. I can't, just can't understand why individuals are so incredibly narrow minded when in comes to the subject of homosexuality. I am straight, AND catholic, and believe that we are ALL EQUAL regardless of sexual preference.

These men and women who grew up feeling different and now know it was because they were/are homosexual - we're telling them that they are wrong? That they did have a choice, they just made the wrong one?????

I can't understand how people can claim to be friends with anyone who is homosexual, but say they disagree with the lifestyle. It isn't like saying, "Jane smokes, and I don't agree with it, but we can still be friends." Because Jane can put out her cigarette and you and she can have a nice time together. But if you don't agree with someone's sexual preference, then you honestly don't understand that individual. If you don't understand them, they you aren't a true friend.

I apologize if I ruffled any feathers, but my cousin Jeff is gay, and is the most fantastic man in the entire world. He deserves every chance he can get, and with people out there willing to put him down because of a choice he never got to make...

It makes me very, very sad. Thanks for listening.

First, welcome to the DIS! Keep on posting!

Second, it makes us sad as well.
 
JimFitz said:
Can someone explain the Gay Pride Parades to me?

Perhaps if you explain your question or at least explain a little more about what it is you want to know, someone here would be glad to answer.
 














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