Work Vacation issue. WWYD?

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I used to work in an office where there was indeed crazy jockeying for the "front of the line." There was one woman who would submit her vacation requests (which were always the big ones that everyone wants - day after Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, day after Christmas, basically anytime around a holiday) at the exact moment it was allowed. The rule was generally that requests could not be made more than a year in advance and she would be emailing at midnight a year out on Thanksgiving night to get her request in for the following year. It was also an office where people had to cover for each other and more than one person could not be out around a holiday so if she requested it at midnight that was it. No one else could have it off. Her intensity about it forced everyone else in the department to become equally crazy about it and start submitting requests at the stroke of midnight and the department manager was coming in to 5 or 6 emails sent in the middle of the night on major holidays for vacation days the following year. It ultimately led to them having to change the way they let people request vacation because it was coming down to whether someone had emailed at 12:01 or 12:02 on Thanksgiving night to get the day after off the following year. It caused a lot of tension and stress in the department. The first come first serve policy had not really been a problem until this particular employee arrived but she changed the whole culture.

Yipes..see for some people you give them an inch and they take a mile.

And while morally what that employee was doing would be considered wrong by most to the company and their rules at the time they weren't doing anything wrong til it snowballed into something and causes the company to rethink some things.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Right I agree with you on that but I assumed we were dealing with rational employees, lol.

True but the world is full irrational people lol. But I get what you are saying.

I'm sure KBoopaloo's example though isn't the only one out there where the system snowballed out of control due to one or more employees.

 

[Paula Sedley-Burke]

The lady started about a year ago and the wedding is planned for August 2017. I know people plan wedding's way out, but almost two years (even a year and a half) is stretching things IMO.

I see. I did not see that time frame. Thank you.

 

[sam_gordon]

But even that may not be fair all the time.

But a seniority based system is "fair" all of the time? Let's say the most senior person has 4 weeks of vacation. He gets to pick first. So he takes Christmas, Thanksgiving, July 4th, and Memorial Day weeks. And he does that for the 10+ years he's the senior person. That means no one else is allowed to have that time off. That's "fair"?

Will there be people who abuse any system put in place? Somewhere in the world yes, but that doesn't mean there's one in every company, much less every department.

I can understand how someone who has built up seniority in a seniority based system wouldn't want to give that up and change over to a first come, first served system, but it's worked for my company. As Pacolovestacos mentioned, most employees are rational.

 

[kamik86]

But a seniority based system is "fair" all of the time? Let's say the most senior person has 4 weeks of vacation. He gets to pick first. So he takes Christmas, Thanksgiving, July 4th, and Memorial Day weeks. And he does that for the 10+ years he's the senior person. That means no one else is allowed to have that time off. That's "fair"?

Will there be people who abuse any system put in place? Somewhere in the world yes, but that doesn't mean there's one in every company, much less every department.

I can understand how someone who has built up seniority in a seniority based system wouldn't want to give that up and change over to a first come, first served system, but it's worked for my company. As Pacolovestacos mentioned, most employees are rational.

One of the big reasons that companies don't change this is any change will screw over someone and cause alot of tension in the office... and those that arent' happy will spend alot of time complaining instead of producing for a bit.

Really simple things in our office have done it.
My office is set like it was built into the side of a hill but they excavated around it. So in the front its on street level, in the back its abit over a flow below street level. Main parking lot is in the back on street level so you have to go downstairs to get to the building.

Years ago there was only stairs, no elevator in the back to get from the parking lot, the building is surrounded by blacktop so there is a small amount of parking at the building level next to the building. They left anyone that had a disabled pass (even temporarily) park there and if spots remained they would give them by seniority.

A few years ago they built a small admin building in the back for which puts the stairs inside and an elevator (and a much nicer guard office and welcome spot for visitors) when they did this they decided no one can park in next to the building except with a short (few hour) pick up/delivery pass if you have to transport heavy equipment. Those with seniority flipped out. Over losing a special slightly closer parking spot. The company stuck to it since this had insurance implications but I could see where a vacation policy change would be hard for a manager to go ahead with.

My office its done by individual managers... some programs need people in some don't. We have so few things that need people in the office that we basically ask for a volunteer from each function to be on call. 90% of the time no one is going to call anyway. Espeically if you don't work op support. (If your working on developing a new product and your customer is on vacation there isn't anyone to have an emergency to need to call you)

 

[Paula Sedley-Burke]

If work set up these rules I think it is up to supervisors and managers to sort. It is unfair to spring this kind of guilt on employees. This year a wedding, next year a graduation. It should be a kind of secret request and the supervisor chooses the weeks so that nobody feels bad towards their coworkers for wanting the best for their own family.

 

[Paula Sedley-Burke]

I still can't imagine booking my wedding and not running the date by my Mum.

Plus when I worked I once changed vacation with a lady who made me feel guilty for taking vacation during childrens holidays even though we have no kids. Like I am not allowed those dates.. Anyway we changed our time got awful skiing weather then the lady went sick for 6 months returned for 2 days. Took her vacation, then went sick...

I learnt the hard way don't let personal info come into it. Everbody takes their turn in the system. I waited my time. Missed events. My sister asked us all re dates before booking her wedding.

 

[sam_gordon]

One of the big reasons that companies don't change this is any change will screw over someone and cause alot of tension in the office... and those that arent' happy will spend alot of time complaining instead of producing for a bit.

I don't expect any company to change. I agree changing from seniority based to first come isn't fair to those who have put in their time. But it wouldn't be the first time companies have changed policy to the detriment of the employees. We are changing our time off plan next week. We used to have a "pot" of vacation days and a "pot" of sick days. Both were "use it or lose it". Starting 1/1, we're going to PTO for everything. I used to get 21 vacation days (4 weeks + personal day) and 6 sick days (potential 27 days off). Now I'll have 25 PTO days, and I can roll over up to 5 days into the next year. I have never used all my sick days in the 26 years I've worked here. So, am I losing two days or am I gaining days? I did hear one employee complaining about losing days.

 

[mom2rtk]

Right I agree with you on that but I assumed we were dealing with rational employees, lol.

But there's one in every batch. And sometimes that's all it takes to set off a chain reaction. If it's really just "first come" then why not request the day after Thanksgiving every year for the next 20 years? Same for the week between Christmas and New Year's?

 

[sam_gordon]

But there's one in every batch.

No there's not.

 

[mom2rtk]

No there's not.

Are you always this literal?

It's a saying. The point is that it only takes one to mess up a system like that.

 

[sam_gordon]

Are you always this literal?

It's a saying. The point is that it only takes one to mess up a system like that.

Sure, one person can mess up the system. But acting like things get messed up in a lot of businesses, much less the majority, isn't a true representative either. As far as requesting Thankgiving off for the next 20 years, couldn't the same thing happen in a seniority based system?

Let's put it this way... I wouldn't want to work with a seniority based system because I'd have to (pretty much guarantee) work for years (if not decades) to get the seniority to get a "prime" week off. You (assuming) don't want to work at a first come, first served system because someone MIGHT abuse the system?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But a seniority based system is "fair" all of the time? Let's say the most senior person has 4 weeks of vacation. He gets to pick first. So he takes Christmas, Thanksgiving, July 4th, and Memorial Day weeks. And he does that for the 10+ years he's the senior person. That means no one else is allowed to have that time off. That's "fair"?

Will there be people who abuse any system put in place? Somewhere in the world yes, but that doesn't mean there's one in every company, much less every department.

I can understand how someone who has built up seniority in a seniority based system wouldn't want to give that up and change over to a first come, first served system, but it's worked for my company. As Pacolovestacos mentioned, most employees are rational.

It depends on each work environment like I mentioned and as I also mentioned no system is completely fair. To me a mixture of factors used is my preference;not just one thing such as seniority or first come first serve or just performance. So I wouldn't be for just seniority only or just first come first serve or just performance. *I am unsure if you got the impression that I like seniority only systems....I don't..I like multiple factors coming into play. There are exceptions that can and should be able to be given at the manager/supervisor level however but that shouldn't take away from someone else though*

At my last job it was 60% seniority and 40% performance. However, they did PTO bidding in October-December of the year before and the order in which you bid was based on the seniority/performance mix as of a certain chosen date...if you wanted a holiday you had to ask off for it then, same went for summer because come the first of the year there was never a Friday off during the summer available as it had already been asked off for during the bidding process. Even then how they actually measured performance was not entirely fair either..won't get into that can of worms though.

KBoopaloo provided an example of jockeying and wasn't the first person to mention it. It honestly does happen whether we like to think that most employees are rational. It also doesn't take a person to hoard so to speak coveted dates for there to be jockeying for days off. It can just be the pressure to get in your date(s) NOW NOW NOW so someone else doesn't take it.

 

[kamik86]

I don't expect any company to change. I agree changing from seniority based to first come isn't fair to those who have put in their time. But it wouldn't be the first time companies have changed policy to the detriment of the employees. We are changing our time off plan next week. We used to have a "pot" of vacation days and a "pot" of sick days. Both were "use it or lose it". Starting 1/1, we're going to PTO for everything. I used to get 21 vacation days (4 weeks + personal day) and 6 sick days (potential 27 days off). Now I'll have 25 PTO days, and I can roll over up to 5 days into the next year. I have never used all my sick days in the 26 years I've worked here. So, am I losing two days or am I gaining days? I did hear one employee complaining about losing days.

I'm surprised your just changing to this... my job had that PTO type thing 7 years ago when I joined and is now being forced to split out sick time. MA just passed a law that everyone MUST have at least a minimum number of sick days that work can not penalize you for taking any day you choose (wow just realized how much that would mess up a system like the OPs if they were in MA two people could call in sick the same day and the manager would just have to deal with it because they couldn't force either to come in).

Now although our PTO system pretty much worked that way it wasn't strictly policy managers could tell you that you couldn't take PTO on a given day (most never did because people didn't ask on the obviously not ones unless they really had an emergency - because when your job is mostly at a computer, can be done from home, etc... there is rarely a case that you can't get something done because someone is sick) but that meant they had to split out our time into a category that doesn't roll over but your manager can't deny and a category that does roll over but needs manager approval. So we now have sick time and PTO.

Most of us that have managers that never deny PTO just use the sick time first since it doesn't roll over. Those with managers that might deny a sick day on PTO have to more carefully balance the two.

 

[kamik86]

I mentioned this in my last post but I wonder what some businesses would do with a law similar to the one MA now has. Here all employees in companies with more then 11 people must be given a minimum number of sick days (paid) that work can not penalize them for using (I think it may be a week, I know that is what our interns now get... but they don't work a full year so that may not be right)

So I wonder what this employer would do if someone was on vacation and the flu went around the office and multiple people used sick time too.

 

[jenkel]

Everyone knows the vacation rules right? Lower people on the list are just trying to manipulate the system to their advantage. My husband worked for 26 years at his company, never got summer vacations when our kids were young. But we knew the vacation rules and he decided to stay at the job anyway. Fastforward to year 26 at the company and the lower people on the totem pole complain they have kids and want summer vacation. So the system got changed so others could get summer vacations. I really don't think it is fair, everyone only thinks of themselves. I would definately take the time that you want, she knows the rules. Let the quilt fall on the boss for not making an exception.

 

[sam_gordon]

So I wonder what this employer would do if someone was on vacation and the flu went around the office and multiple people used sick time too.

I wonder if that's why they have the "only 1 off at a time" policy. Maybe they can handle 2-3, but by only letting one take vacation, they can still handle things if someone calls in sick.

 

[sam_gordon]

So the system got changed so others could get summer vacations. I really don't think it is fair, everyone only thinks of themselves.

But aren't you thinking about how the change affects you? Yes, that sucks for folks that have built up their seniority. But in 10-20 years no one will really know the difference.

My company (before we sold to corporate) used to allow us to bank sick days (up to 30). When you retired or left the company, you'd get $$ for the unused time. When we sold, they wiped out all the accumulated sick time with no $$. At least your vacation policy change doesn't cost you money.

 

[BLAZEY]

We have a seniority based vacation policy, however the senior most people can't book time off ALL the holidays. We also run a skeleton crew at Christmas so that everyone gets some time off. This year the office was closed at 1pm on Dec 23 and re-opened 8am Dec 28. We observed Boxing Day on it's actual day (Monday Dec 26, and Christmas on Tuesday Dec 25 as it fell on a Sunday this year.)

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

I still can't imagine booking my wedding and not running the date by my Mum.

Plus when I worked I once changed vacation with a lady who made me feel guilty for taking vacation during childrens holidays even though we have no kids. Like I am not allowed those dates.. Anyway we changed our time got awful skiing weather then the lady went sick for 6 months returned for 2 days. Took her vacation, then went sick...

I learnt the hard way don't let personal info come into it. Everbody takes their turn in the system. I waited my time. Missed events. My sister asked us all re dates before booking her wedding.

That is what I was thinking.

If it is important to you that your mom is there, then you discuss it with her.

My parents, his parents . . all had input.