Why does it take 4 years to get a college education?

[brerrabbit]

Well thanks to that college degree and the MBA I got I see the problem as really being this: In economics and finance we studied the idea of supply and demand and a lot and the current problem boils down to there being a ton of supply, people looking for good employment opportunities vs a smaller demand, the availability of good employment opportunities. As a result the price of entry to the market (getting a reasonably good shot at an interview) has increased. The price of entry is a college degree. If the trend continues which is likely the cost of entry in certain areas will continue to increase and include the cost of a graduate degree. The undergraduate degree also afford more options because a change of careers could then be achieved in graduate school which requires generally less time than a new 4 year bachelors degree.

Unfortunate side effects of the price of entry includes more people attending college, which increases cost, the dumbing down of some curriculims, and the need for more prerequisites to thin the population more resulting in less meaningful college course.

I tend to look at a lot of issues in these terms. Again the unfortunate outcome of my education. One can equate the reason that Teachers are underpaid by many peoples standards is explainable this way. Summers off and the idea that prior to our current financial problems a teaching job was a job for life lead a larger number of college bound students to pursue that avenue. Therfore to manage the numbers with the large supply the value (salary) of the product (Teachers) was held down thus discouraging many from pursuing that opportunity. Obviously this has changed with the recession but you get the idea.

 

[dejr_8]

Maybe I live in some bubble but it was my impression that high school was a lot better than when I went in the 80s. Sure, my high school taught me more "workforce" skills than what I am seeing them doing now, but certainly the caliber of my children's HS classes are much more in-depth/intense than the classes I ever took. I thought I had also read that students had made significant gains in SAT scores over the students of the early 80s. Now, could it be that they dumbed down the SAT tests? I don't know. I just didn't get the impression that HS had become watered down. I do think a lot of life skills they could be/should be teaching have been removed and I'm not so sure you get them in college either. But I think that the push for "you need a bachelors degree for everything" has certainly devalued the high school diploma.

By watered down I mean that the push to increase graduation rates has resulting in "unqualified" students receiving a diploma. Thus, the value of a HS diploma has been lowered- it is no longer an indication that you have a certain level of education.

I could not agree with you more that High Schools need to teach life skills especially on the financial management front - running a household and living within your means (i.e. how to handle credit)

Because SAT scores have been "re-centered" it makes comparison of scores across generations difficult and probably meaningless.

 

[tasha99]

There are some worthwhile courses...some that I have really enjoyed. Basic english, math and science? Nope. I already knew most of the things taught. I go to a school with over 35,000 students. There is a wide array of students so the 100 level courses that are required are kind of dumbed down.

This is the thing . . . saying a class is easy or hard compared to high school is either a reflection on your high school or your college. I think it's pretty obvious that a community college class is probably easier than that same class at MIT or Stanford, for example. I had a friend who went to Stanford, and it was very hard for him to cope with being an "average" student after shining so much in high school.

Also, you often don't actually have to take those 100 level classes if you can test out of them. Even if you do, you can learn to improve. Writing for example, isn't the kind of skill that is ever fully realized--there is always a way to write better. And to be honest, everyone says writing is easy, but I remember reading other English majors' work in classes years ago and being completely shocked by how poor the average essay was. That's not true at the graduate level in my field (because people are vetted through college grades, GRE scores, and personal essays), though I imagine it is in other fields that aren't writing oriented.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

For things like Doctors and Lawyers, I totally see the education as necessary. I do agree with the people who have posted about the "Degree Requirement" situation that is coming about in America.

I have a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science, and I did Pre-Law. I decided, however, that Law wasn't for me, so I never went on to Law School. Since I was 8 years old I have been programming on computers (games, office programs, etc.). When the Internet age came about, I self-taught myself all sorts of web programming, including all the extras (javascripts, etc.) as a hobby.

Can I get a job programming? Not in a million years. They see Bachelor's in Political Science in a large pile of resumes, not in Computer Programming (or associated field), and I'm instantly out of the running. It's not like I get a chance to "audition" for the company to show them my skills. And, with 2 small children and being the "earner" in the family, a new 4-year degree is out of the question right now.

I know it's an impossible feat, but I've always hated how companies pigeon-hole their job candidates, and wish they could do "auditions" rather than relying on some words on paper to decide their final list. I've met MBA's who could teach circles around the business teachers in our local High School, but because they don't have all the necessary certification classes/degress they cannot get hired. It's a real shame.

 

[ThanksForNoticingMe]

All that means is you came from a decent high school. There are many schools that people will leave and they don't already know it. If the education system worked and post graduate schools could be assured that everyone learned what they were supposed to you wouldn't have to pay $700 for review. Unfortunately they can't be assured of that because a TON of students come out of the system with good grades that don't know the basics.

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[kamik86]

Double post

 

[kamik86]

For those wondering if high schools really are that bad... YES some are.

My high school was a regional vocational school. We spent 1 week of time in normal classes and then a week in shop classes for our chosen shop (Computer aided drafting, IT, business, automotive, carpentry etc). We had no electives (not even foreign languages or things required to get into most non-tech schools so if you realize in your senior year you want to be a teacher and not and engineer your screwed) and instead had double periods of English and Math each day so that we still had the number of hours required for a high school diploma. If it wasn't for the new law that passing the MCAS was required to graduate from high school the year before I graduated I know many people who would not have been able to READ and still graduated from high school. Some were still doing freshman level Algebra senior year (they allowed this since Algebra was on the test you need to graduate but trig wasn't so they were trying to get students to pass.).

Even so the MCAS still didn't catch everyone that shouldn't graduate. You can take the test 5 times (Everyone takes it spring of 10th grade then if you fail you can take it fall of 11th, spring of 11th, fall of 12th, and spring of 12th or until you pass) after failing it students twice students were put into special classes where half the day they spent doing nothing but working toward the test. For example I heard one special ed teacher working with a student who was in his senior year and had one more attempt, he was told to take one book and read it several times so he could use that book for the essay question (which is generally something like "Write about a secondary character in a novel of your choice that had a significant impact on the outcome of the story?") I don't know what the kid was supposed to do if the question turned out to be something that the book didn't have an example of.

If I knew that a high school education told me that this person can do basic math (say things like what is required to balance a checkbook or research a list of things I need and tell me how much it will all cost), has reading comprehension skills high enough where if I write them an email about a task I need done they can do it, can write well enough to send me one back on their progress and even better send my customer one for information they need without embarrassing the company then a high school education might be enough for many jobs. However a high school education doesn't guarantee that a person can do these things. Not where I'm from at least. So everything requires a BS degree and or extensive experience if the person is expected to be able to do ANYTHING without direct supervision.

The only way out of that is if the company gives a test. My Dad only has a GED but was given a test for his current job. Why? He is only operating a press to make greeting cards, wedding invites, etc? Because you need to position things EXACTLY right. They need to know that if you are told to make a card with a border at 1/4 in from the edge and another inner border 1/8 from that one that you can figure out where to put the inner border. So they gave them all a test on doing math with fractions. If you don't pass you aren't hired.

 

[WeLoveLilo05]

Why does it take 4 years to get a college education and then another few years to specialize in something? For example, if a high school student wants to be a doctor why can't they go into medical school right after high school (like they do in India)? Why is pre-med necessary? Want to be a lawyer? Why not go to law school after high school? (Abraham Lincoln became a lawyer on the job and did not go to school). Want to be a TV producer...there can be communications schools.

I feel like college is such a scam. People are drowning themselves in debt just becuase they need more and more and more schooling.

Please tell me I'm being ridiculous.

I agree with you in a sense, I just graduated with a degree in psych/education and have special ed cert. So why on earth did i have to take 2 semesters of a language, (Italian, yet when I asked if sign language would fulfill that req they said no! But I will be special ed certified and in classroom, don't you think it would be wiser if I DID take sign language?!?!) 2 semesters of a lab science, 2 semesters of college math, 2 semesters of english, already when added up that's 1 year of school! I also had to take a fitness class, ugh!

 

[StitchFanZ]

If you know what you want, it doesn't have to take 4 years. I completed two years of college and then took a break due to family issues. When I returned, I completed two years of college in one year. All you have to do is study the system. I took about 25 credits per quarter and added in a few independent study classes during breaks. I did have to get an exception and explain to the counselor that I had been working full time and taking a full course load. Since I wasn't working full time anymore, I had 40 more hours in my week to fill with classes. I graduated with honors so they couldn't argue much.

I see more and more high school students starting community college in their junior/senior year and being close to completing an associates degree when their peers are just completing thier high school studies. If they are mature enough and are ready for the challenge, it makes sense.

 

[WeLoveLilo05]

If you know what you want, it doesn't have to take 4 years. I completed two years of college and then took a break due to family issues. When I returned, I completed two years of college in one year. All you have to do is study the system. I took about 25 credits per quarter and added in a few independent study classes during breaks. I did have to get an exception and explain to the counselor that I had been working full time and taking a full course load. Since I wasn't working full time anymore, I had 40 more hours in my week to fill with classes. I graduated with honors so they couldn't argue much.

I see more and more high school students starting community college in their junior/senior year and being close to completing an associates degree when their peers are just completing thier high school studies. If they are mature enough and are ready for the challenge, it makes sense.

Here in NJ in order to go to community college you need to be 18 or have a HS equivalency diploma, so HS JRs and SRs couldn't enroll @ a community college until the summer right after their senior year. I am pretty sure NY is like this too. Although my HS did offer AP course, but only in certain areas (History and English) and when you started college you already had His101 and Eng101 completed.

 

[tasha99]

I agree with you in a sense, I just graduated with a degree in psych/education and have special ed cert. So why on earth did i have to take 2 semesters of a language, (Italian, yet when I asked if sign language would fulfill that req they said no! But I will be special ed certified and in classroom, don't you think it would be wiser if I DID take sign language?!?!) 2 semesters of a lab science, 2 semesters of college math, 2 semesters of english, already when added up that's 1 year of school! I also had to take a fitness class, ugh!

That is really weird that ASL wouldn't count. It counts at my school for the language requirement if you take two years of it.

 

[Alphabetsoup]

The required English comp classes I have taken have taught me nothing that I didn't learn in high school. I do not mind taking literature classes, etc. I do not have to take geography...it's an option but not required.

The things that annoy me are the required english classes, math classes, science...that are just 100 level classes and are nothing that I didn't learn in high school. I feel it is a waste to pay $700 for three days a week of repeat information.

Well, if you had mastered the skills needed in high school English, why were you unable to test out of the required 100 level English classes? Students who take AP English in high school usually do test out of the first two English Composition courses. Since you apparently did not test well enough to get out of the courses, chances are good that your results were found lacking in some way.

As someone who regularly teaches English Composition and higher level writing courses at the university level, I can honestly say I see many students who manage to get through the 100 level courses without being able to write a simple paragraph, much less a research paper. My brother teaches high school history and has shared the horrible papers the students turn in -- SHOCKING. So your claim that the 100 level English classes are redundant and not needed falls flat with me -- I have seen the lousy writing skills college freshmen come into university with -- English Composition is clearly needed.

As I said before, if you were already an excellent writer, then you should have tested high enough on the placement test to avoid the English Comp requirement -- clearly you didn't, so your view of your writing skills and the university's view are at odds.

 

[Tianar]

And we have a WINNER. HS is so watered down that the diploma has been made meaningless.

Now for medical school question I don't see the need to receive a four year degree before becoming a physician. Maybe a year or two dedicated to prerequisites.

And don't tell me a Pre-med degree is demanding because I will put the curriculum of an BS Chemical Engineering program up against any Pre-med one for overall difficulty.

I'm not gonna argue with you about which is the more demanding major. (I have friends in Engineering! I know it's tough. )

However, many institutions no longer offer Pre-Med as a separate major. And med schools actually don't always like it if your major is "Pre-Med". They are more into "well-rounded" candidates. They LIKE to see other classes than the prereq courses on a transcript. So most of us have actual majors on top of our prereq course work.

There's also the question of when to apply. Med school application processes start long before one actually matriculates. I just finished up my junior year and now I'm starting the application process. If it were only a two year program, I'd have to start applying at the end of the first year! Eep!

It's also really nice to take other courses than the prereqs. I fell a little bit in love with anthropology because I had to take a social science.

 

[StitchFanZ]

I see more and more high school students starting community college in their junior/senior year and being close to completing an associates degree when their peers are just completing thier high school studies. If they are mature enough and are ready for the challenge, it makes sense.​

Here in NJ in order to go to community college you need to be 18 or have a HS equivalency diploma, so HS JRs and SRs couldn't enroll @ a community college until the summer right after their senior year. I am pretty sure NY is like this too. Although my HS did offer AP course, but only in certain areas (History and English) and when you started college you already had His101 and Eng101 completed.​

In Oregon,there is a jump start program where qualifies students can start taking college classes at age 16.

 

[ThanksForNoticingMe]

Well, if you had mastered the skills needed in high school English, why were you unable to test out of the required 100 level English classes? Students who take AP English in high school usually do test out of the first two English Composition courses. Since you apparently did not test well enough to get out of the courses, chances are good that your results were found lacking in some way.

As someone who regularly teaches English Composition and higher level writing courses at the university level, I can honestly say I see many students who manage to get through the 100 level courses without being able to write a simple paragraph, much less a research paper. My brother teaches high school history and has shared the horrible papers the students turn in -- SHOCKING. So your claim that the 100 level English classes are redundant and not needed falls flat with me -- I have seen the lousy writing skills college freshmen come into university with -- English Composition is clearly needed.

As I said before, if you were already an excellent writer, then you should have tested high enough on the placement test to avoid the English Comp requirement -- clearly you didn't, so your view of your writing skills and the university's view are at odds.

 

[punkin]

Well, if you had mastered the skills needed in high school English, why were you unable to test out of the required 100 level English classes? Students who take AP English in high school usually do test out of the first two English Composition courses. Since you apparently did not test well enough to get out of the courses, chances are good that your results were found lacking in some way.

As someone who regularly teaches English Composition and higher level writing courses at the university level, I can honestly say I see many students who manage to get through the 100 level courses without being able to write a simple paragraph, much less a research paper. My brother teaches high school history and has shared the horrible papers the students turn in -- SHOCKING. So your claim that the 100 level English classes are redundant and not needed falls flat with me -- I have seen the lousy writing skills college freshmen come into university with -- English Composition is clearly needed.

As I said before, if you were already an excellent writer, then you should have tested high enough on the placement test to avoid the English Comp requirement -- clearly you didn't, so your view of your writing skills and the university's view are at odds.

DD's college (the one she will be attending next year) requires an intro writing class (they call it a "seminar") for all students in all majors-no testing out. Different colleges have different standards.

Really (and this applies to OP not the quote) you cannot lump all colleges together. There are pre-professional programs, true liberal arts, engineering, etc. and they are all different. It is also not fair to compare the top tier, nationally recognized colleges and universities and what they provide their students to mediocre, third tier schools.

 

[DawnM]

Couldn't you just go for an MA in Computer Science or Programming rather than start OVER for another 4 year degree?

Also, even if you were to get a second BA, it would not take you 4 years as you would not need your general eds again.

I say this because DH has an undergrad in business. He wanted to become an accountant. They wouldn't hire him without an accounting degree but he went for his MA in accounting instead of another BA.

I majored in undergrad in something completely different than I got an MA in as well and had no trouble getting into grad school.

Dawn

I have a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science, and I did Pre-Law. I decided, however, that Law wasn't for me, so I never went on to Law School. Since I was 8 years old I have been programming on computers (games, office programs, etc.). When the Internet age came about, I self-taught myself all sorts of web programming, including all the extras (javascripts, etc.) as a hobby.

Can I get a job programming? Not in a million years. They see Bachelor's in Political Science in a large pile of resumes, not in Computer Programming (or associated field), and I'm instantly out of the running. It's not like I get a chance to "audition" for the company to show them my skills. And, with 2 small children and being the "earner" in the family, a new 4-year degree is out of the question right now.

I know it's an impossible feat, but I've always hated how companies pigeon-hole their job candidates, and wish they could do "auditions" rather than relying on some words on paper to decide their final list. I've met MBA's who could teach circles around the business teachers in our local High School, but because they don't have all the necessary certification classes/degress they cannot get hired. It's a real shame.

 

[DawnM]

Back in the day, when my father was in college, if you were able to get an "A" in advanced organic chemistry (I believe this is the class....it may have been advanced applied physics), you were allowed to apply for Medical school and count your first year of medical school as also being your senior year of college.

He was able to do that and finished college and med school in 7 years instead of 8.

I can't comment on the chemical engineering vs. pre-med because I don't have the science brain to do either one.

I will say that most schools don't encourage pre-med anymore. Even in the 50s, when my father was in college, only 20% of those who majored in pre-med actually went on to med school. I think the recommendation now is to major in a field of chemistry or biology and then apply for medical school, but it has been a while since I looked that one up.

Dawn

And we have a WINNER. HS is so watered down that the diploma has been made meaningless.

Now for medical school question I don't see the need to receive a four year degree before becoming a physician. Maybe a year or two dedicated to prerequisites.

And don't tell me a Pre-med degree is demanding because I will put the curriculum of an BS Chemical Engineering program up against any Pre-med one for overall difficulty.

 

[Deb in IA]

And don't tell me a Pre-med degree is demanding because I will put the curriculum of an BS Chemical Engineering program up against any Pre-med one for overall difficulty.

And do graduate programs in Chem E only take 1 out of every 10 applicants?

Because that's what it takes to get into medical school.

 

[njcarita]

Here in NJ in order to go to community college you need to be 18 or have a HS equivalency diploma, so HS JRs and SRs couldn't enroll @ a community college until the summer right after their senior year. I am pretty sure NY is like this too. Although my HS did offer AP course, but only in certain areas (History and English) and when you started college you already had His101 and Eng101 completed.

actually in my NJ town... they have a dual enrollment program with a community college and a local college... our High School students can finish their first year of college while they are attending HS... so they will be starting in their Sophmore year of college after graduation...