Why does it take 4 years to get a college education?

[Allison]

Ok I'll tell you-You are being ridiculous and college is not a scam.

 

[Deb in IA]

For example, if a high school student wants to be a doctor why can't they go into medical school right after high school (like they do in India)? Why is pre-med necessary? Want to be a lawyer? Why not go to law school after high school? (Abraham Lincoln became a lawyer on the job and did not go to school). Want to be a TV producer...there can be communications schools.

I feel like college is such a scam. People are drowning themselves in debt just becuase they need more and more and more schooling.

Please tell me I'm being ridiculous.

I don't know anything about the system in India.

But I do know that here in the USA, medical education BUILDS on knowledge and skills in a step-wise fashion.

To understand biochemistry, microbiology, pharmacology, physiology, anatomy, etc. in medical school, you need the knowledge and concepts taught in college level biology, chemistry, math and physics.

To master any of the medical specialties, you need the concepts taught in medical school.

And to master a subspecialty, you need to understand the core specialty.


To short-change this process will lead to some serious flaws and deficiencies in your training.



I think the general principle can apply to most other fields as well.

 

[DawnCt1]

If that's the case then college should be 2 years only.

A medical school curriculum is very demanding and it assumes a basic set of knowledge and skills before you even walk in the door. A very basic requirement is that one be proficient in the English language, have excellent communication skills, be able to interpret and process abstract ideas and information that a liberal arts educations affords you.
Then there is 'language' requirement. Most BAs require X number of years in a foreign language. This isn't just for the purpose of communicating in a foreign language, although these days, that is a plus, but it enhances English and language skills.
Then there is a psychology/sociology requirements. Medicine is a science but it is also an 'art' and requires an understanding and working knowledge of the human condition and social structure.
Then there is history, and anthropology. Do you really want a physician who has no historical perspective.
Now on to the math. Advanced math should be self explanatory, but most science issues have a mathmatical foundation; certainly chemistry and physics.
Biological sciences, chemistry and physics? That should be obvious. The more advanced courses depend upon the foundation of more fundamental ones.
When one enters medical school they need to have demonstrated proficiency in many of these basic areas. The results of the MCATs measure that and one must score in the top percentiles. Testing well isn't the only challenge however. Without a solid foundation in chemistry and the biological sciences, one would probably not succeed in medical school....and veterinary school for that matter. With fewer schools, veterinary school is even more competitive.
Medical schools are also looking for maturity and something that sets the candidate apart from the "book worm". Experience in health, volunteerism, experiences in the military, etc that demonstrates dedication and perseverance.

I should add, after all of this, that there are six year BS/MD programs in the United States but they are very competitive and demanding.

 

[DVC-Don]

Doesn't alway take 4 years for college. I did mine in 3 years. I CLEP'd some courses and went summers to do it. I treated it as my job, 8-6 every day (some evenings) year round. Even if I did not have a class, I was in the library or some lab.

Then again I have a cousin who went 9 years and never got a degree. He kept changing his minor, and never took more than 3 classes a semester.

 

[Rora]

I don't think college in and of itself is a scam, but as other posters have pointed out, there are a lot of jobs now that require 4 year degrees that really don't need to. In short, it's not so much the schools as what employers are now requireing.

I think some professions like doctors, lawyers, etc. should require a four year undergrad before going on to specialize, simply because you learn so much about just being a student. Study habbits that work in high school don't always translate into college life. A bright high school kid that could get away with just paying attention in class and doing their home work and was able to ace the tests and finals without taking notes or extra study, may find they can barley keep up in college. In college you do a lot more in the way of research papers, too.

That said, I think the vast majority of jobs one should be fine with either an assiociates or a bachlors. This trend of needing a Masters before they'll even look at your resume for any job that pays more than $40k a year is getting out of hand. It's almost like a bachlors is treated like an associates, and a Masters is treated like a bachlors. If all you have is an associates or heaven forbid, a HS diploma, you may as well be illiterate. All the while the cost of school keeps going up.

I think this is an excellent post.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I think that college is very over-rated. My most productive employees do not have college degrees. Also, consider that teachers get paid more for advanced degrees - even though they are teaching material not covered in those advanced degree programs. Talk about a self-perpetuating industry.

That said, there are too many elitists out there who did waste their money on a college degree so will require it of their employees.

 

[Mickey's Minion]

I think that college is very over-rated. My most productive employees do not have college degrees. Also, consider that teachers get paid more for advanced degrees - even though they are teaching material not covered in those advanced degree programs. Talk about a self-perpetuating industry.

That said, there are too many elitists out there who did waste their money on a college degree so will require it of their employees.

What is your degree?


College has one sole purpose - it teaches you how to think. I want my doctor to be able to think outside of the box, to draw on previous education to problem solve my illness. I do not want some kid who has only had 4 years of medical school to regurgitate what is in the medical textbooks.

If you had a life threatening illness, are you going to choose an American schooled doctor or are your going to fly to India to use a doctor who has not had the benefit of a foundation of education?

 

[englishteacha]

For a motivated student, it doesn't take 4 years to get a college education. A friend of mine finished in 3 by taking courses in the summers and a full course load each semester. I would have finished in 3 and a half. Instead, I decided spend a semester abroad. I didn't want to rush into the real world at 20! As it was I graduated after 4 years of college at 21. I'm now 29 and am almost done my Master's in education, paid for by my employer. It took me 7 years to go back to school, but I'm very glad I waited. I wasn't ready for grad school at 21.

Edit: I hadn't read all the posts before replying. Yes, I'm getting a Master's degree in education. I've learned a lot about how to become a better teacher. My students have benefited from my education. I could have gotten a Master's in English, but knowing more Shakespeare isn't necessarily going to help me teach.

 

[Sparx]

I think the four year degree has really become the new high school diploma. You're almost expected to have one for pretty much any job out there, whether its really relevant or not.

As for college taking too long, I do think that some gen ed is unnecessary. Do we really need 9 hours of english for every degree? Probably not. What about 8 hours of science? Doubtful. I would prefer if our degree programs put more emphasis on our major specific and less on the general ed. However, I would trade several of my science hours for the same amount of my major classes. I don't want it to take less time, but I'd rather spend my time doing more relevant things.

Also, there is an advanced standing degree program for a lot of graduate colleges. I know my school has one. You have to graduate with your undergrad and a solid 3.5 and you can get your master's degree in three semesters (1 year). Its incredibly fast paced, and your undergrad has to be in the same field as your masters (like if you do it for social work, you have to have a BSW to get the MSW advanced standing).

I don't think college is a scam. I think I've learned a lot in college that I wouldn't learn anywhere else, especially not in-field. My degree requires more than 500 hours in field to graduate, but I'm expected to be well educated before they take me into their agency. They're not going to waste their limited time teaching me everything I should already know. All the training that we're expected to receive will simply be on agency systems.

I think the original post was made by a frustrated college student who feels like they're wasting their time. If this is the case, I want to offer encouragement to finish. It will all be worth it in the end.

 

[Planogirl]

There's no way that going to college is ever a scam! You can't put a value on education.

Dawn summed it up quite well IMO. You need to have a firm grasp of fundamentals before you go into something as complex as Law or Medicine. It can take 3 years instead of 4 but the number of hours is essentially the same.

 

[jazzielady]

Can't speak to the medical degree (except it used to be possible prior to med schools. Think dr. Baker in Little House), but my fil passed the bar back in the 50's w/o law school. Don't know if that's still possible.

 

[tasha99]

A medical school curriculum is very demanding and it assumes a basic set of knowledge and skills before you even walk in the door. A very basic requirement is that one be proficient in the English language, have excellent communication skills, be able to interpret and process abstract ideas and information that a liberal arts educations affords you.
Then there is 'language' requirement. Most BAs require X number of years in a foreign language. This isn't just for the purpose of communicating in a foreign language, although these days, that is a plus, but it enhances English and language skills.
Then there is a psychology/sociology requirements. Medicine is a science but it is also an 'art' and requires an understanding and working knowledge of the human condition and social structure.
Then there is history, and anthropology. Do you really want a physician who has no historical perspective.
Now on to the math. Advanced math should be self explanatory, but most science issues have a mathmatical foundation; certainly chemistry and physics.
Biological sciences, chemistry and physics? That should be obvious. The more advanced courses depend upon the foundation of more fundamental ones.
When one enters medical school they need to have demonstrated proficiency in many of these basic areas. The results of the MCATs measure that and one must score in the top percentiles. Testing well isn't the only challenge however. Without a solid foundation in chemistry and the biological sciences, one would probably not succeed in medical school....and veterinary school for that matter. With fewer schools, veterinary school is even more competitive.
Medical schools are also looking for maturity and something that sets the candidate apart from the "book worm". Experience in health, volunteerism, experiences in the military, etc that demonstrates dedication and perseverance.

I should add, after all of this, that there are six year BS/MD programs in the United States but they are very competitive and demanding.

I wondered when someone would point this out. I decided to go back to school and had to do a year of postbac work because my undergrad degree didn't prepare me for the grad program (English BA, now working on a Communication Disorders and Sciences MA). How, without taking speech anatomy, would I pass neuro-anatomy with a focus on speech, or voice disorders, for that matter? Without taking phonetics, how would I be able to transcribe language samples in clinic? How could you learn about speech and language disorders if you don't know what is normal? Basically, grad school in many practical fields assumes you have certain knowledge before starting, and they don't teach those kinds of subjects in high school.

 

[TheZue]

A medical school curriculum is very demanding and it assumes a basic set of knowledge and skills before you even walk in the door. A very basic requirement is that one be proficient in the English language, have excellent communication skills, be able to interpret and process abstract ideas and information that a liberal arts educations affords you.
Then there is 'language' requirement. Most BAs require X number of years in a foreign language. This isn't just for the purpose of communicating in a foreign language, although these days, that is a plus, but it enhances English and language skills.
Then there is a psychology/sociology requirements. Medicine is a science but it is also an 'art' and requires an understanding and working knowledge of the human condition and social structure.
Then there is history, and anthropology. Do you really want a physician who has no historical perspective.
Now on to the math. Advanced math should be self explanatory, but most science issues have a mathmatical foundation; certainly chemistry and physics.
Biological sciences, chemistry and physics? That should be obvious. The more advanced courses depend upon the foundation of more fundamental ones.
When one enters medical school they need to have demonstrated proficiency in many of these basic areas. The results of the MCATs measure that and one must score in the top percentiles. Testing well isn't the only challenge however. Without a solid foundation in chemistry and the biological sciences, one would probably not succeed in medical school....and veterinary school for that matter. With fewer schools, veterinary school is even more competitive.
Medical schools are also looking for maturity and something that sets the candidate apart from the "book worm". Experience in health, volunteerism, experiences in the military, etc that demonstrates dedication and perseverance.

I should add, after all of this, that there are six year BS/MD programs in the United States but they are very competitive and demanding.

Exactly.

Also with doctors the level of understanding they need in biology and chemistry is very high. I don't want a doctor handing out a lot of prescriptions and giving nutritional advise that doesn't have a good handle on biochem. It takes years to build that understanding. My husband was originally going to get his bachelor in biology and changed him mind fourth year, I couldn't make heads or tails of the things he learned in fourth year. We both were in first year together and both did well, but it builds year after year. High school biology is so basic compared to what you know at the end of a science degree. Without that foundation going into med school we'd have weaker doctors.

Not only that not all schools teach it well, it's VERY spotty, I remember watching a 20-20 where some grads came out of high school and didn't know how to use a microscope. Med school doesn't need to waste time weeding out who didn't learn high school facts properly for whatever reason. And honestly that goes for every field. When I was in school first year was almost a review and a way to weed out people who couldn't work independently, second year started building, and the upper levels were very specialized....and this was history. Even in arts and language you needed that background to successfully move forward.

As for jobs that don't need a degree, I think they'd often prefer a degree. Who would you rather have? The candidate that stuck it out and got their degree or the one that dropped out first year or just didn't bother? It's viewed as an indicator of work ethic...and this is coming from somebody who is one semester shy of finishing her degree so I totally understand life gets in the way.

Even beyond jobs I wouldn't give up my schooling. My pre-ed courses have come in very handy when my son fell behind in math, and I'm sure I'll be able to help them with their history when they reach that level.

 

[LiLIrishChick63]

Why does it take 4 years to get a college education and then another few years to specialize in something? For example, if a high school student wants to be a doctor why can't they go into medical school right after high school (like they do in India)? Why is pre-med necessary? Want to be a lawyer? Why not go to law school after high school? (Abraham Lincoln became a lawyer on the job and did not go to school). Want to be a TV producer...there can be communications schools.

I feel like college is such a scam. People are drowning themselves in debt just becuase they need more and more and more schooling.

Please tell me I'm being ridiculous.

i can kind of understand where you're coming from. espically for those of us who don't come from "money" to begin with, and college definatly isn't cheap, and not all of the financial aide or scholarships cover all of the fees. it's hard enough to pay for 2 years of schooling let along 4-8+ years of it.

i honestly think that's why a lot of people DON'T go to college. i know i can't afford it. i would LOVE to go back, but i don't have the money to.

 

[chisnpeke]

I agree with you a MILLION percent. It is utterly ridiculous that society has made it so you HAVE to have a college degree to get a decent job, even if you don't really need that degree to do the job. And now, even a bachelor's isn't good enough. You need a masters!

Basically, the first two years of college is just general education courses. It is all stuff I learned in high school. For example, I want to get a history degree. Right now I am working on a liberal arts associates degree (pretty worthless) then want to get a bachelors in history. I could easily skip all of the general education coursework required by the university and go right into learning about the history that I am interested in. Is that possible? No. It disgusts me, actually.

ETA: Wanted to add that I do not think education for jobs in the medical field should be scrimped on. That deals with lives. However, for general studies, such as business...who needs to retake basic english, survey history, science, etc. when it was learned in high school to get a business degree? It just seems like a waste of time.

I do not believe college is a scam at all. I just think that society has created a problem by requiring everyone to go to college in order to find a decent paying job.

 

[disykat]

Basically, the first two years of college is just general education courses. It is all stuff I learned in high school. For example, I want to get a history degree. Right now I am working on a liberal arts associates degree (pretty worthless) then want to get a bachelors in history. I could easily skip all of the general education coursework required by the university and go right into learning about the history that I am interested in. Is that possible? No. It disgusts me, actually.

.

Get yourself in to see someone in advising! Honestly, if there's not something worthwhile that you can take to fulfil those requirements, you're at the wrong school. Wasting two years of your time and money taking something that isn't worthwhile ends up reflecting badly on YOU!

 

[ThanksForNoticingMe]

I agree with you a MILLION percent. It is utterly ridiculous that society has made it so you HAVE to have a college degree to get a decent job, even if you don't really need that degree to do the job. And now, even a bachelor's isn't good enough. You need a masters!

Basically, the first two years of college is just general education courses. It is all stuff I learned in high school. For example, I want to get a history degree. Right now I am working on a liberal arts associates degree (pretty worthless) then want to get a bachelors in history. I could easily skip all of the general education coursework required by the university and go right into learning about the history that I am interested in. Is that possible? No. It disgusts me, actually.

ETA: Wanted to add that I do not think education for jobs in the medical field should be scrimped on. That deals with lives. However, for general studies, such as business...who needs to retake basic english, survey history, science, etc. when it was learned in high school to get a business degree? It just seems like a waste of time.

I do not believe college is a scam at all. I just think that society has created a problem by requiring everyone to go to college in order to find a decent paying job.

You mentioned you wanted to get your B.A in History. Well...l I hate to break it to you but a lot of those general ed. classes are actually pretty important.

The English classes- Help you learn to write the many papers you will be assigned.

Classes such as Geography- will help you identify where the places were/ are located on a map.

Classes like Economics- help you understand how resources impact History in the form of War ect.

I could go on...but I won't

and FYI... I say this as someone who just graduated last week with a B.A in History

 

[Tianar]

Get yourself in to see someone in advising! Honestly, if there's not something worthwhile that you can take to fulfil those requirements, you're at the wrong school. Wasting two years of your time and money taking something that isn't worthwhile ends up reflecting badly on YOU!

So true! There are a lot of interesting courses you can take to fulfill requirements that you might not otherwise think to take. That's the purpose of Gen Ed at liberal arts colleges. To get you to explore a little to make sure you're majoring in the subject that's right for you.

There are several courses of study that aren't always offered in high schools, like anthropology, art history, archaeology, and classics. You might miss something you could really love just because you didn't take a class in it.

 

[FireDancer]

Why does it take 4 years to get a college education and then another few years to specialize in something? For example, if a high school student wants to be a doctor why can't they go into medical school right after high school (like they do in India)? Why is pre-med necessary? Want to be a lawyer? Why not go to law school after high school? (Abraham Lincoln became a lawyer on the job and did not go to school). Want to be a TV producer...there can be communications schools.

I feel like college is such a scam. People are drowning themselves in debt just becuase they need more and more and more schooling.

Please tell me I'm being ridiculous.

This doesn't have to be the case. I can't speak for a medical or law degree but I have a business degree in Information Systems. I waited a couple of years between HS and college because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. When I figured it out I commuted to a local 4 year college, continued to work full time (48 hours a week actually because it was mandatory) and not only took a full time course load but went through both summers and got out in 3 years. I was not only debt free but managed to put some cash in savings.

It just depends on what you do. Some people couldn't do what I did and it wouldn't be possible with some majors. If kids insist on going away to school, not working, and taking out loans to pay for it all they will be in the situation you described but that doesn't have to be the case.

A lot of people are under the impression you have to go away and find yourself to get educated. After I graduated I took a job out of state so I still got my going away experience but instead of financing it with debt I actually got paid to do it. I am also in a field where when I get my masters most of it will be paid for by my employer.

 

[Elmo9607]

I just graduated 2 weeks ago with THE most useless degree ever: an Associates in Arts with a major in communication/journalism.

Ugh. When I started it I thought for sure it would be useful. And it has proved itself to be useful in the fact that I can write papers well, critically think, and have immensly improved my public speaking skills.

I had to switch, so I'm now going for an AAS degree in culinary arts from the same school I got my AA from...which happens to have a very, very sought after culinary arts program and is one of the top culinary competition schools in the nation. Bachelor's degrees are fairly useless when it comes to culinary, since employers look for experience and job performance. So I'm hoping I can put this one to good use!