Why do we want the best test scores?

[cornflake]

Good point. Now that you say it, I can see that we tend to rush kids through the basics to get to those higher levels and I had not thought baout how that can hurt people ever really getting the basics down.

But you just described one of the major reasons i think this focus on having the best math and science test scores (or even better than we have now--which is still pretty dang good, really 14th in the WORLD is not shabby) is bad. The focus is so strongly centered on math and science and only those things that there is less and less opportunity for kids to find out about those other things like poetry that they might excel at if exposed to them.

I think there's a lot of STEM talk for a couple of reasons.

First, because we're so far behind it's shocking. Fourteenth in the world is horrific when you consider that the U.S. is one of the richest countries in the world, with a national education system, the infrastructure to support education, etc. There aren't that many nations that SHOULD be competing at that level. I mean if you just say 'hey, there are 200 or so countries in the world and we rank 14th!' that sounds good. If you say there are 20 or 30 or so nations that could realistically be on the same level (as there are more places than not that just do not have the money, infrastructure, etc.), and we're 14th despite being in the top five or so probably when it comes to $$, it doesn't sound not too bad anymore imo.

Second, it's hard to compare other types of knowledge across nations. You can globally rank kids if you're measuring their ability to do algebra. Algebra is what it is, no matter where you grew up or what language you speak.

History, however, is harder to rank in terms of knowledge because the base isn't the same. I certainly took world history in h.s. and while I have some knowledge, I don't know the history of, to stick with a theme, Indonesian politics, any more than the average Swede would probably be able to name the U.S. Constitutional amendments or tell you what the Monroe Doctrine was.

In addition, as the world depends more on various forms of technology, and as populations grow, STEM becomes more important.

I'll add that I dunno where social studies etc., are being cut, but I think art is in a different category. I'm all for art education and practical art being done in schools, but I wouldn't sacrifice math class for it.

I also agree there's not, perhaps, enough focus on mastering fundamentals in some places but that's part of what a focus on this stuff is supposed to correct - making sure kids have the correct knowledge at all levels.

 

[PollyannaMom]

...Not only is this a disservice to those that will never excel in math/science but could shine in other areas, but it is also a great disservice to the best and brightest in the math and science fields. They are not allowed the freedom to really explore these subjects. They basically get to sit and twiddle their thumbs while we bring everyone else up to the middle ground. The more we push everyone to the same level, the more we lose...

I think you're right. It takes something away from both ends.

 

[luvmy3]

Well,now I am in Germany (which is a totally different system ), but I had kids in schools in NH and MI and have family in schools in TX and CO.

I have seen cuts in the number of hours of recess, gym, art and music in lower grades and a lot fewer credits that high schoolers can use towards those things (since everyone seems to need 4 years of math, science and English now). I am glad to know these things are not being scaled back everywhere

Interesting enough, in my ds' 4th grade class they were cutting science instruction. He still had his PE, mandatory chorus, additiinal music class, art, social studies, and his recess and even study hall 2 to 3 days a week (why a 4th grader needs a study hall is beyond me). Luckily enough parents complained so that additional science instruction will be given.


As far as time goes---the middle and high schoolers I know right now (in the US) seem to be averaging 3+hours of homework a night for a good student and more for one who struggles. I can't recall ever having had more than an hour of home work at that age and rarely had that much.
Even in lower grades you see posts all the time here about kids having required half an hour of reading time plus an hour of homework plus required fitness time etc in very low grades.
That makes for longer days than most adult working days by several hours before a single activity or outside interest or simple after school job (common in my generation and I am not yet 40) or household chore is added in.

While I think its important for kids to have hobbies and interests, I don't believe school is the place for them. I believe school is the place for educating our future leaders, CEOs, research scientist, etc.
Having said that, I really like exposing kids to those things through the education system. I was very pleased to see the options my dd (and all the students) had in HS. It seemed the elective choices were endless and I think that is important for kids who do lean toward those things, and it gives them a chance to either expand their interest or realize its not what they want to pursue in life.
However I believe the focus in schools should be on the core courses, with math and science being at the very top, anything else should come behind those things.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I think you're right. It takes something away from both ends.

That is not true in every school. Sorry to burst that bubble. Which is why my point was to make schools "fair".

At my dd's HS the math/science kids are taking college level math and engineering. In fact a few of the kids were taking college level in middle school.

Our district accomodates "gifted" students.

 

[Pigeon]

I think the emphasis on test scores is misguided. What we need are more kids who are interested in math and science and who want to study it.

At our jr high and high school, the obsession with test scores serves to dissuade kids from challenging themselves. The have arbitrary standardized test cutoff scores for taking more challenging math and science classes. They do not take your class grades into account at all. They are terrified that allowing kids to take the tougher classes will result in lower standardized test scores, and thus will make the school look "bad."

 

[NY Disney fan]

Change has to come at a fundamental level too -- at home. I consider myself an activist parent in that I don't believe public school is enough. My daughter attends school on the weekend (with homework during the week on top of schoolwork). I don't know if this strategy will work but I can tell you with 100% assurance that my daughter is #1 in her class with a bullet. Again, I'm trying to balance her education with her being a kid and having play time. Its tough becuase I'm getting pushback from people sayiing I'm pushing her too hard. Time will tell.

My daughter is adapting to this style of life. She still watches cartoons and plays with her nintendo. She still goes to the park to play. So she is still doing all the kid things. But I don't want it to be all about being #1. I want her to love school (which she does ) and I want her to find her passion. So I have a dilemma on my hands.

 

[kamik86]

Change has to come at a fundamental level too -- at home. I consider myself an activist parent in that I don't believe public school is enough. My daughter attends school on the weekend (with homework during the week on top of schoolwork). I don't know if this strategy will work but I can tell you with 100% assurance that my daughter is #1 in her class with a bullet. Again, I'm trying to balance her education with her being a kid and having play time. Its tough becuase I'm getting pushback from people sayiing I'm pushing her too hard. Time will tell.

My daughter is adapting to this style of life. She still watches cartoons and plays with her nintendo. She still goes to the park to play. So she is still doing all the kid things.

See myself as a kid I would have hated this not becuase I had to attend school during the weekend but that my schoolwork during the week was such a waste of time. I still to this day thing 45% of the time I spent in high school was pointless. The school was way below my abilities. (BTW 45% because the 50% of time I spent in my vocational shop classes were almost all useful, however the 50% on academics... almost none of that was useful) The english classes were a joke. Science was ok when we were being taught but still had times where it was going way to slow so that everyone besides those of us in the top 5% could catch up. I needed higher level math to do shop then what we were learning in our academics so shop was having to teach us math too (needed some trig sophomore year to do analysis on AC circuits in shop for example)

Maybe there are some good schools out there but mine wasn't one of them. So I probably would not have resented going to school on the weekends I would have resented having to be in school during the week.

Do you have a plan for when your child is SOOO far ahead in normal classes that she is bored out of her mind?

 

[NY Disney fan]

Do you have a plan for when your child is SOOO far ahead in normal classes that she is bored out of her mind?

Yes, my plan is to stop the weekend schooling. This will probably be her last year. She'll go to summer school like usual (I don't believe in the summer slide) and then next fall will only go to regular school.

 

[Piper]

I personally believe that reading is the way to open up the world for children. When I taught older grades, I always took time out of my day to read to my students. I read classics, biographies, books on special interests....so many things. I also integrated other subjects that fit with the books I was reading.

For example, when I read the first 2 "Little House" books plus "Farmer Boy," we did so many things.

We studied U. S. history--who was president at that time, what was happening in other parts of the country and world, we set up our classroom with girls on one side and boys on the other and had some kindergarten students spend part of the day in class and my students read to them and did some "hands-on math" with them.

We studied communications--how did the people in the book find out what was happening to their loved ones and the rest of the country...how did they send invitations...and we made a class newspaper and wrote letters to some pen pals from another state.

We used math to figure the area of a cabin, the size of furniture, how it could be placed in a house (each kid constructed their own cabin.) We figured out yield of wheat (given so many bushels an acre)--how much money the wheat would bring in and what could be bought with the money (given a fixed list of prices.)

I found a set of paper dolls and the students made clothes for them and designed backgrounds. They also wrote their own stories and acted them out using the paper dolls.

Then we talked about what Laura and her family would think if they suddenly went forward in time to today. What would be different? What would be the same?

I did this with a lot of different books. (When reading about the Pilgrims, we marked out the size of the Mayflower on the playground and gathered children to represent the people on board--and yes, it was crowded!! Since my kids spoke 14 different languages at home, I told them they were Pilgrims and they explored their family histories and learned about their homelands.

I was able to do all this because Texas doesn't test second graders (yes I did this with 7 and 8 year olds!) My students learned a lot, they read a lot (both as a group and independently.) They had fun and looked forward to school. But I hope they learned to THINK!

 

[luvsJack]

I personally believe that reading is the way to open up the world for children. When I taught older grades, I always took time out of my day to read to my students. I read classics, biographies, books on special interests....so many things. I also integrated other subjects that fit with the books I was reading.

For example, when I read the first 2 "Little House" books plus "Farmer Boy," we did so many things.

We studied U. S. history--who was president at that time, what was happening in other parts of the country and world, we set up our classroom with girls on one side and boys on the other and had some kindergarten students spend part of the day in class and my students read to them and did some "hands-on math" with them.

We studied communications--how did the people in the book find out what was happening to their loved ones and the rest of the country...how did they send invitations...and we made a class newspaper and wrote letters to some pen pals from another state.

We used math to figure the area of a cabin, the size of furniture, how it could be placed in a house (each kid constructed their own cabin.) We figured out yield of wheat (given so many bushels an acre)--how much money the wheat would bring in and what could be bought with the money (given a fixed list of prices.)

I found a set of paper dolls and the students made clothes for them and designed backgrounds. They also wrote their own stories and acted them out using the paper dolls.

Then we talked about what Laura and her family would think if they suddenly went forward in time to today. What would be different? What would be the same?

I did this with a lot of different books. (When reading about the Pilgrims, we marked out the size of the Mayflower on the playground and gathered children to represent the people on board--and yes, it was crowded!! Since my kids spoke 14 different languages at home, I told them they were Pilgrims and they explored their family histories and learned about their homelands.

I was able to do all this because Texas doesn't test second graders (yes I did this with 7 and 8 year olds!) My students learned a lot, they read a lot (both as a group and independently.) They had fun and looked forward to school. But I hope they learned to THINK!

This is a wonderful way to teach kids! And I agree, reading is their window to the world. And teaching them to think is teaching them to learn, something they will forever be able to use.



Our high school has a multitude of electives, like a pp mentioned; the problem is fitting it in somewhere. So many of the students do not get exposed to new things because of the math and science requirements.


NYDisneyFan: You mention that you bet your dd is #1 in her class. Why does it matter? With weekend and summer classes, does she also have time for a social life? Does she have time to take part in sports or music lessons or maybe dance? Don't you worry that she may burn out with all of this school work? What is your hope for the end result?

I am not putting down your choices, I am just curious as to why you have made the decision to do this.

 

[PrincessKsMom]

I think that one of the main issues in education now is that non-educators are pushing for certain test results. In the long run, it doesn't matter how the students score on these tests if they are not taught to think, to explore, and to look for solutions. The primary focus is scoring well on the tests which leads to more rote memorization and less exploration of the topics.

Not only is this a disservice to those that will never excel in math/science but could shine in other areas, but it is also a great disservice to the best and brightest in the math and science fields. They are not allowed the freedom to really explore these subjects. They basically get to sit and twiddle their thumbs while we bring everyone else up to the middle ground. The more we push everyone to the same level, the more we lose.

Knowing a number of middle and high school students, I do not think that allowing them to explore different interests will lead to more video game junkies and sex tape stars, especially if we encourage other interests.

I have found this myself with my daughter, particularly when she graduated grammar school. Good student, could memorize anything, but couldn't think for herself. If it wasn't a fact memorized for regurgitation later, she couldn't handle it. She had a particularly hard time in high school with honors math. She had the grades for it, but it moved at such a fast pace that she, and many others in her class, couldn't keep up. Teacher's response was "I have a curriculum I need to adhere to, if they can't keep up then they get left behind." I pointed out that many of the kids having a hard time were getting 90's-100's in their other classes, it was just math that was a problem. Her answer to that was "then those other teachers aren't pushing them hard enough". She did NOT want to deviate from her calendar/curriculum AT ALL. But, of course, it was okay that she missed many days of school to go to the State meetings to help write curriculum for the State. When she was out she thought it best they keep moving, teaching themselves the next chapters in their books.

Children need to learn, explore and question. They're just not being given the opportunity to do that anymore.

 

[Nette]

But in a way it is. We're rushing too many kids through decimals and fractions, starting before they are ready and moving on to other things before they really understand the basics (and skipping things like history some days entirely!) so that everyone can "stay on pace" and get to those advanced things.

This is so true. What's with the need to teach kids to read in Kindergarten (full disclosure, I read at age 3)? My grandmother was an elementary school teacher in the 50s, and she used to always say how she LOVED teaching first and third grades because sometime in that first grade year (MOST) students had a light bulb moment and they could all of a sudden read. She loved seeing that moment. (I saw it happen in my daughter... we were on a plane to WDW when it happened... amazing!) There is a similar development during the third grade year.

Trying to force kids to hit these milestones early really just frustrates them. I'm not saying that it's a waste of time to be introducing them to these skills early, but trying to move beyond the basics before the basics are understood is just self-defeating.

Also, I was reading about introversion yesterday, and Susan Cain was talking about how introversion is practically treated as a disease here in the US. That all of our schools and a lot of our workplaces are forcing group work, which really doesn't sit well with 1/3 to 1/2 the population who are introverts.

In countries like China where the test scores are "so much higher" the children are encouraged to work alone. We need to be making accommodations for kids who need to work alone more. They definitely need to learn to work in groups as well, but to force MOST education as group think is detrimental to these introverted kids. Since the proportion of gifted individuals is higher in introverts, we are seriously handicapping our test scores.

We have a real problem in the US with "all or nothing".

 

[disykat]

I think they should be looking at how to pull up the average.

There can be a tendency to think they can pull up the average by making the high scores higher. I think the reality is that they need to bring up the low scores and the population they should be targeting is the at-risk population. What we have is a societal problem, not just an education problem IMO.

 

[padams]

I think they should be looking at how to pull up the average.

There can be a tendency to think they can pull up the average by making the high scores higher. I think the reality is that they need to bring up the low scores and the population they should be targeting is the at-risk population. What we have is a societal problem, not just an education problem IMO.

The average can be brought up by only testing some students as other countries do. We test all of our students but many of the countries ahead of us in test scores only test their students on the academic track. Our top students' scores are competitive with everyone else. Our bottom scores bring down our average. The issue is should everyone be on an academic track.

 

[kamik86]

This is so true. What's with the need to teach kids to read in Kindergarten (full disclosure, I read at age 3)? My grandmother was an elementary school teacher in the 50s, and she used to always say how she LOVED teaching first and third grades because sometime in that first grade year (MOST) students had a light bulb moment and they could all of a sudden read. She loved seeing that moment. (I saw it happen in my daughter... we were on a plane to WDW when it happened... amazing!) There is a similar development during the third grade year.

Trying to force kids to hit these milestones early really just frustrates them. I'm not saying that it's a waste of time to be introducing them to these skills early, but trying to move beyond the basics before the basics are understood is just self-defeating.

Also, I was reading about introversion yesterday, and Susan Cain was talking about how introversion is practically treated as a disease here in the US. That all of our schools and a lot of our workplaces are forcing group work, which really doesn't sit well with 1/3 to 1/2 the population who are introverts.

In countries like China where the test scores are "so much higher" the children are encouraged to work alone. We need to be making accommodations for kids who need to work alone more. They definitely need to learn to work in groups as well, but to force MOST education as group think is detrimental to these introverted kids. Since the proportion of gifted individuals is higher in introverts, we are seriously handicapping our test scores.

We have a real problem in the US with "all or nothing".

The other problem with group work is that the group that does the work is often smaller then the full group.

For example We had a group in my calculus class for our worksheets and practice stuff. I was in a group of 3. At the end of the year we all figured out what we needed on the final. I needed to get an 80 or so on the final to get an A. My groupmates needed something like a 75 and an 85 to PASS the class. Our worksheet grade was a 95. Any guess who was doing the worksheets?

The only groups I liked to work in with the more upper level software class groups. Where they were to be manged more like a real company job. So if there were 4 people on a team they did NOT expect that everyone had a hand in everything. And if you knew nothing of the detailed design of one of your components the teacher didn't care. So we were free to let everyone do what they were good at (database work, User interface and graphics design, the more complex algorithmic code, design, test, presentations etc) Those groups were good becasue they didn't insist that everyone be the same

 

[kamik86]

I think they should be looking at how to pull up the average.

There can be a tendency to think they can pull up the average by making the high scores higher. I think the reality is that they need to bring up the low scores and the population they should be targeting is the at-risk population. What we have is a societal problem, not just an education problem IMO.

I couldn't disagree more. I don't think they should be spending the bulk of the resources improving the scores of the worst students so that the average scores are higher! The countries that are doing better then us didn't even give those students the test. Those students aren't on the academic track and maybe they shouldn't be since these are the students that will never need to use trig or calculus anyway so why are we goign to torture them with it?

 

[disykat]

I'm not so sure we disagree. I think we're saying the same thing. I certainly didn't imply you should make struggling kids take calculus! Targeting the at risk kids doesn't mean you expect them to compete with the gifted kids, it means you provide appropriate learning for them to reach their potential.

I too think expecting all kids to be college ready is ridiculous.

 

[shortbun]

My son is an honor student as are most of his friends. The content of their AP and IB courses is the same as my regular classes when I was in high school. We have dumbed down the basic education of our children to a point of absurdity. Parents crying about having to help their children with homework. Students sleeping in class. My son's friends report teachers knowingly allowing students to copy each other's papers in class so the kids, at least, turn something in. Everyone has gotten lazy, very lazy. The idea that we are trying to achieve 'the best' is humorous. I believe that we are simply attempting to stop the downhill spiral. When I graduated from high school, I had Algebra 2, Chemistry, Biology, 4 years of French and 2 of Latin, 4 years of English,Psychology, Government, Economics, typing, Geography and lots of art, music and drama classes. That was 1971 and all the kids in my freshman year of college had the same stuff.
Why can't we at least achieve the standards of 1971?
Why all the bellyaching? The kids can handle it. We did.

 

[DisneyWitch]

I think the US should strive to be the best in math & science. Why? Because those are things which will propel our next generation to do great things. We don't want to be best known as the Kardashian Kapital, or be known for our plethora of idiotic reality shows or the gaffes of our political candidates. Not all TV shows are bad...there are great shows out there, but they don't have as much mainstream support as Honey Boo Boo does. Nor do they bring in the ratings / money that some of the more vapid shows do.

The US is the greatest country in the world, offering a ton of opportunities for those people who value innovation, vision, intelligence and integrity. We need to encourage that in our young people and in our adults as well. If we, as US citizens, don't have the skills needed in a new age of technology and science, we are handing over our future to other countries. We are already witnessing this by the fact that so many of our jobs are outsourced and there are tons of high-technology jobs which are not being filled (or we're importing those people from other countries).

Being known in a global community as one of the smartest, cleverest and innovative societies will yield greater opportunities for all of us in the future. We need to make math, science, reading, and critical thinking "cool" again and encourage our young people to take an interest in the arts as well. Our rockstars need to be people who contribute to society in all fields, and we need to stop idolizing those people who teach our kids that it's ok to be violent, or hurtful, or rude. We need to start idolizing traits in people that have been made "dorky" over the past 30 years, like helping the poor, volunteering, being smart, using one's artistic talent, thinking critically, asking questions. You don't have to be a genius to do any of this...just someone who refuses to be a selfish twit at the expense of others.

The US has to rekindle its pioneering and adventuring spirit - to want to reach beyond the boundaries of our own planet and explore the cosmos. This adventuring spirit was so evident even 50 years ago and prompted great advances in aerospace and science. Now, we don't even have a space shuttle program anymore.

Ultimately, a focus on math & science will propel our young people to question and think, to put emphasis on the things that will help them in the long run. To stop having our kids glued to the TV watching shows that turn their brain into mush and become "sheeple" to whatever fad is popular that day. To even start thinking about their communities, families and world as an extension of themselves.

Sorry for the length...bit of a hot button for me.

PS - Disclosure: I am an IT Professional with a degree in the sciences, and I am a mentor to several young careerpeople at my Firm. I think math/science/technology is vital to the further prosperity of our country.

 

[Coconut36]

But in a way it is. We're rushing too many kids through decimals and fractions, starting before they are ready and moving on to other things before they really understand the basics (and skipping things like history some days entirely!) so that everyone can "stay on pace" and get to those advanced things.

So true..there is no time now for a focus on memorization of the basics. For many of the early building blocks it's all about memorization..but they don't have time for that now..it's about moving quickly on to the next thing and the kids fail and struggle because they no longer have the foundation they need. Why doesn't anyone realize we are dooming them for failure by doing this? As you put more and more on top of that weak foundation they are going to struggle and fail. It's very distressing to me.