Why do we want the best test scores?

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That is interesting to me. That was sort of what I was trying to point out about these private schools that I am talking about. They are not worrying about what the kids will score on the state test because they don't take them.

Our system is so concerned with comparing test scores that true education is being lost.

I agree. I also know public schools and public school teachers would LOVE to be free of the test..my DH district petitioned to have the number of tests they are required to administer each year cut down from I think 3 to 2 and they were denied. For public schools though their "life" depends on these scores..they run the risk of being taken over if they can't get them to a certain level, Admin would be removed..etc. Until they do away with them (and there appears to be no effort to do this) things are not going to improve.
 
Here's the deal. Most of us sitting here in our comfy computer chairs or on a laptop have resources. We have kids who come home to a warm house and food, a place to study or do homework, a warm quiet place to sleep and they are READY to go to school and learn. Hopefully our kids are being told that school is important and that we want them to go and listen and do their best. We read at home, we spend time providing our kids with experiences (like WDW for example) that we think will enrich their lives and make them well rounded.

A big chunk of our at-risk population doesn't have those things. Parents being able to pay for tutoring really isn't the big thing IMO.
 
Here's the deal. Most of us sitting here in our comfy computer chairs or on a laptop have resources. We have kids who come home to a warm house and food, a place to study or do homework, a warm quiet place to sleep and they are READY to go to school and learn. Hopefully our kids are being told that school is important and that we want them to go and listen and do their best. We read at home, we spend time providing our kids with experiences (like WDW for example) that we think will enrich their lives and make them well rounded.

A big chunk of our at-risk population doesn't have those things. Parents being able to pay for tutoring really isn't the big thing IMO.

But there are plenty of schools that are failing that don't consist of an at-risk population. Many are just as you described in your first paragraph, and they are still graduating kids who can't multiple and the only fraction they understand is 1/2. Plenty of kids are walking out of good public schools with a less than adequate education.
 
I agree. I also know public schools and public school teachers would LOVE to be free of the test..my DH district petitioned to have the number of tests they are required to administer each year cut down from I think 3 to 2 and they were denied. For public schools though their "life" depends on these scores..they run the risk of being taken over if they can't get them to a certain level, Admin would be removed..etc. Until they do away with them (and there appears to be no effort to do this) things are not going to improve.

I'm sure they would. DD had a computer class in the 8th grade that would really be a useful class if they actually learned anything about using a computer. 90% of the class was spent taking practice MCT tests and tests to prepare for the MCT and tests to prepare for the practice tests. Its ridiculous!

Its not the fault of the teacher in that class, its the fault of the entire system but the fact remains.

There have been a few schools around here that have been close to losing funding and being taken over by the state, so then they really amp up the practice tests. When that happens there is at least a school year lost on test taking.

Oh, and it seems to be popular to punish the kids for the lower test scores too. This year one school decided to take away being able to be exempt from 9 weeks and semester tests. In years past they could be exempt if they only missed one or two days and had an A or B average. Not this year, the MCT scores were too low. Not sure how that is going to fix it but that's what they did.
 

I would have no issue if all schools were equal. My issue with Gov't funding private education is that private schools are exclusionary. I am not OK with that. If all schools operated in exactly the same manner in regards to who they accept and how they have to handle kids (as in public school has to keep taking the discipline problem back..private doesn't) then I would have no issue at all with it. But I am not OK with the idea of Gov't funding for a "want" for your child's education or for providing money to attend a school that can and will deny other students for whatever reason. If they took everyone, if they were all bound by the same requirements in regards to handling discipline problems..etc I am all for it..but until then I am not.

Sorry for misunderstanding that. I totally agree with you on this point.
 
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I would have no issue if all schools were equal. My issue with Gov't funding private education is that private schools are exclusionary. I am not OK with that. If all schools operated in exactly the same manner in regards to who they accept and how they have to handle kids (as in public school has to keep taking the discipline problem back..private doesn't) then I would have no issue at all with it. But I am not OK with the idea of Gov't funding for a "want" for your child's education or for providing money to attend a school that can and will deny other students for whatever reason. If they took everyone, if they were all bound by the same requirements in regards to handling discipline problems..etc I am all for it..but until then I am not.

Agree there. My kids are atheists. That does not go over well in the Catholic schools here.

I never thought of that angle before, interesting.
 
The Mystery Machine said:
Agree there. My kids are atheists. That does not go over well in the Catholic schools here.

I never thought of that angle before, interesting.

Sure. But would you WANT them going to a Catholic school if you are an atheist?
 
I apologize if I am repeating a comment. I did not read through all of the pages.

One main concern is that because the US is falling behind in math and science we are becoming and will continue to become less competitive in the global job market. There are fields right not in which companies are having to go outside the US to find qualified people. As technology increases the need for advanced skill in math and science will become increasingly mandatory for a larger and larger portion of the job market.

The US has an giant ego(The US as in we colelectively). We see ourselves as the best. However, we are the best in only one category. That category is 'how do you rate yourself'.

We are failing our kids. The dropout rate is enormous. However, even if the child does graduate high school, studies have shown that a overwhelming portion of high school graduates are not properly prepared for college.

We are no longer a country that can rely on manufacturing to produce a quality middle class lifestyle.
 
I apologize if I am repeating a comment. I did not read through all of the pages.

One main concern is that because the US is falling behind in math and science we are becoming and will continue to become less competitive in the global job market. There are fields right not in which companies are having to go outside the US to find qualified people. As technology increases the need for advanced skill in math and science will become increasingly mandatory for a larger and larger portion of the job market.

The US has an giant ego(The US as in we colelectively). We see ourselves as the best. However, we are the best in only one category. That category is 'how do you rate yourself'.

We are failing our kids. The dropout rate is enormous. However, even if the child does graduate high school, studies have shown that a overwhelming portion of high school graduates are not properly prepared for college.
We are no longer a country that can rely on manufacturing to produce a quality middle class lifestyle.

The part I bolded is HUGE and we see it every day. We have so many students that come from high school totally unprepared for college level classes. So many have to take lower level math, english, and reading that its just sad. They have to use up part of their FA eligibility or pay oop for classes that they should have had in high school.

Now of course, some of these are students that just didn't get the material in high school but many just didn't have the material presented to them or they fell through the cracks somewhere along the way.

All anyone has to do is talk to a few of our instructors and they will tell you how much it has fallen in the past couple of decades. And then you add in the students that honestly believe all they have to do is show up to class and pass!!! They have completely missed the concept of having to actually do the work that is assigned and do it correctly. Its like they just went through 12 years of school by passing because they were sitting in a desk and nothing else; no work involved.

That's why I don't get why the public school systems cannot look at a system that does work and does graduate students who are prepared for college and use that for a template of what to change.
 
The part I bolded is HUGE and we see it every day. We have so many students that come from high school totally unprepared for college level classes. So many have to take lower level math, english, and reading that its just sad. They have to use up part of their FA eligibility or pay oop for classes that they should have had in high school.

Now of course, some of these are students that just didn't get the material in high school but many just didn't have the material presented to them or they fell through the cracks somewhere along the way.

All anyone has to do is talk to a few of our instructors and they will tell you how much it has fallen in the past couple of decades. And then you add in the students that honestly believe all they have to do is show up to class and pass!!! They have completely missed the concept of having to actually do the work that is assigned and do it correctly. Its like they just went through 12 years of school by passing because they were sitting in a desk and nothing else; no work involved.

That's why I don't get why the public school systems cannot look at a system that does work and does graduate students who are prepared for college and use that for a template of what to change.

Because it is being mandated way up Federally what has to be done. You have people who are so out of touch (if they ever actually were educators or have that background) creating crap like NCLB and the public schools are bound to meet the guidelines and such set by these things. The changes need to start happening way up the ladder before they are ever going to hit the actual schools and teachers in the schools. Nobody is listening to the educators and the Admin and the staff and understanding what this is doing and how big a failure it is..until they end these things, until they stop trying to tie teacher performance to test scores (and on top of that not allow them to actually teach) it is not going to stop or be fixed.
 
Sure. But would you WANT them going to a Catholic school if you are an atheist?

I don't WANT my tax dollars going to support a religious school in any shape, form or fashion. As a religious person, I also don't want the state giving money to my church, even through a church sponsored school. I think the two should be entirely twain. That which is Caeser's is Caeser's etc.
 
I agree.

I teach remedial math at community college. 40% of the students at my school need remedial math. That means 40% of the students are not up to Algebra II. That is abysmal.

It's not just that we aren't graduating enough students with higher math skills like trig or calc, but we are graduating people that barely have basic math skills. I have students who cannot do fractions, don't know their multiplication tables, have no understanding of basic scientific or math principles, and who are generally lacking the ability to think critically about math or science.

These are average students. They should be able to do better and we as a country should demand better. They are capable of learning the material, but we need to do a better job of teaching math and science.

As an ed tech in middle school, I saw the same thing day in and day out. More than half of the 8th graders in my school are still adding on their fingers because they don't know their multiplication tables. They don't understand how fractions, decimals, and per cents are related. My guess is about 1/3 of them are still using the lattice method of multiplication. My husband teaches freshman chemistry at a local, small University and many of HIS students are the same; still adding/multiplying on their fingers if they cannot get to their phones or calculators. It's pathetic what passes for education these days. Now that I work in the classrooms in the lower elementary school, I can see where some of problems start. We aren't requiring that kids memorize multiplication tables. It's boring, and it might embarrass them if they can't recite such or provide an answer in a verbal drill, and it doesn't stimulate them, so we just don't make them do it anymore. Personally I think it's more embarrassing to not know if you have enough money to pay for your groceries or how to figure the tip in the restaurant, but maybe that's just me. Spiraling math programs do NOT teach mastery; they teach to cover a wide variety of topics, and hope that you learned a technique the first time because you are going to need it next month when the program spirals around. Too much is being thrown at kids, too quickly, and we just keep moving on. The kids aren't learning much, and are mastering even less.

Somewhere along the way (perhaps in the '80s?) we got caught in the "learning should be FUN" jag, and stopped demanding that certain things be memorized, that certain behaviors be followed, that homework be done, and that failing grades be assigned. OOOPS, don't want to embarrass someone by giving them a 45% on a test when that's what they earned! Elementary schools stopped dividing classes into groups based on ability, and requirements in high school were generally lowered; I guess the idea was to remove stress and possible humiliation over failure. Right now, we are caught up in "inquiry" and "student-led" learning. I just love arguing about how vision works with a 10 year old. Actually, I am not interested in hearing a 10 year old's fantasy of how science happens when I KNOW how these things occur. When does "inquiry" stop being about curiosity and segue into reinforcing wrong ideas?

Unfortunately, school funding is tied to the testing results. Consequently, we teach the test. Kids are shown how to do specific problems and we pray that they see this kind of a problem again and remember the practice problem. Most kids don't have any basic understanding of how the different topics in math are interconnected, and math, like science, is a series of steps. You have to understand and master the first step before you can progress to the second step. We aren't teaching the kids the basic tools they need to be successful in math, English, reading, and writing, so our international test scores flounder. Consequently, we turn to the educational theorists and cry, "Help, help! What can we do to make our kids want to learn more?" How about we try teaching them the basic skills they need, at an age where they can grasp them, and then teaching them to use these skills to build an understanding of more complex concepts, at an appropriate rate so they LEARN instead of just push forward?

Anecdotally: I have a new student, a child whose testing indicates a diagnosis of MR may be in the future. Why? The child cannot match upper and lower case letters, doesn't understand ordinals, cannot read the lowest level Dolsch words, and cannot add. Working with this child, I find curiosity, listening skills, and memory. I cannot help but wonder if perhaps the student didn't score well on the evaluations because this child is only 4 years old! Seriously... when do little kids get to be little KIDS instead of little professors?
 
snarlingcoyote said:
I don't WANT my tax dollars going to support a religious school in any shape, form or fashion. As a religious person, I also don't want the state giving money to my church, even through a church sponsored school. I think the two should be entirely twain. That which is Caeser's is Caeser's etc.

Well, tax dollars aren't funding religious education, at least not here in Florida. We don't have vouchers (except the McKay for students with disabilities), so our tax money is never shunted to religious institutions without our full consent.

Is it different in other states? As far as I know, vouchers are the only way state funds are granted to religious schools. And therefore, only the funds allocated to that particular student would be diverted--no one else's. I would be surprised to hear that it is different in other states, though, given the constitutional issues.
 
Well, tax dollars aren't funding religious education, at least not here in Florida. We don't have vouchers (except the McKay for students with disabilities), so our tax money is never shunted to religious institutions without our full consent.

Is it different in other states? As far as I know, vouchers are the only way state funds are granted to religious schools. And therefore, only the funds allocated to that particular student would be diverted--no one else's. I would be surprised to hear that it is different in other states, though, given the constitutional issues.

I think the poster was speaking in terms of those that feel that they should be able to pick any school of choice (religious private schools included) and that the state/Fed gov't should foot the bill for their child's education in private school..so instead of funneling the money to public schools they would give it to private (and in some cases religious) schools based on parental choice. Many posters (myself included) are not cool with that.
 
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