Who Shot the Red Baron, on PBS's Nova

[Truth]

Edit to say this was on Tuesady the 15th. but the story can be read at the link along with some clips.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/redbaron/

Like the Kennedy assassination, the death of Manfred von Richthofen
is clouded by dozens of often conflicting eyewitness accounts and
has inspired a mountain of speculative theories. NOVA's "Who Killed
the Red Baron?" is based partly on a notable recent investigation of
those theories, The Red Baron's Last Flight, by Norman Franks and
Alan Bennett. Another important recent book, The Many Deaths of
the Red Baron, by Frank McGuire, surveys the literature supporting
the competing claims.

 

[jwill]

I have the book The Red Baron's Last Flight and have possibly seen that program or one similiar to it before. I'm not sure how conclusive any evidence can be after that long but on a personal not I would like to thing that the Australian ground soldier got him rather than another pilot.

Very interesting thread, thank for posting it.

 

[Pop Daddy]

didnt snoopy shoot him down

 

[Truth]

Possible spoiler for the west coasters

.

.

There is next to no doubt that the aussie killed him.

There were only three guns shooting 303 vickers ammo at the Baron that day from the proper distance and only Australian Sergeant C. B. Popkin, a Vickers gunner with the 24th Machine Gun Company had the proper placement to deliver the fatal wound in the manner that the autopsy reports describe.

 

[cynsaun]

Originally posted by Pop Daddy
didnt snoopy shoot him down

I was thinking the same thing!

 

[LauraR]

Oh, I thought it was the Blue Max. Wish I'd seen that NOVA.

 

[jwill]

-truth

There is next to no doubt that the aussie killed him.

There were only three guns shooting 303 vickers ammo at the Baron that day from the proper distance and only Australian Sergeant C. B. Popkin, a Vickers gunner with the 24th Machine Gun Company had the proper placement to deliver the fatal wound in the manner that the autopsy reports describe.

If it's true it adds to his legend of him being the best in his era although many other great pilots from that war were killed by in odd ways as well. Most notable would be the Red Baron's mentor Oswald Boelke who is credited by many with being the father of air combat doctrine.

 

[Truth]

Agreed, shows the value of a good teacher, considering the 80 kills the Baron had you wonder how many more Red Barons there might have been if Oswald Boelke had not been killed in that midair crash with another of his own planes. They didn't even mention the name of the german pilot that caused his death and when you think about how many allied lives that person saved it seems like England should have given him some sort of metal. j/k

 

[jwill]

That's a great point about how many more exceptional pilots would there have been if Boelke had lived. The allies certainly received a lucky break there, no pun intended.
Again, this has been a great thread I really enjoy it.

 

[Truth]

It's amazing how many times in aviation where several apparently unrelated events come together to create a memorable point in History.
For example

1. It was the last day of flying before leave for the Baron, had the events not unfolded perfectly that day he would have been gone for leave. This may have been one of the reasons (end of a long tour of duty) that contributed to the Baron's violating several of his own rules of air combat that day.

2. The prevailing winds over the battlefield during this time usually meant that dogfights took place mostly over German territory. The Baron had flown behind the allied lines in pursuit of his prey and the fact that the winds that day were coming from the opposite direction may have helped place the Baron within reach of allied ground troops.

3. The allied pilot that the Baron was after had been ordered to stay above the fight and not engage the enemy that day in order to observe tatics as a rookie pilot and gather knowledge in order to become a good enough pilot to survive future battles.

4. The pilot that disobeyed orders that day was so inexperienced that he did not even know the red german triplane that was so close under him he could not resist killing it was the only RED triplane and that the pilot would have to be the Red Baron.

5. Placing a fatal wound in a pilot in a speeding triplane that is engaged in air combat as it zooms by 600 yards away seems like quite a lucky shot too, but someone more familiar with the capibility of a Vickers machine gun will have to vouch for that one.

And Yes it has been fun to discuss and settle a mystery that was open for so many years.

Did you have an interest in other air related mysterys ? Are you aware of the recent findings in the Glenn Miller mystery ?

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Unsolved History did a thing on this awhile back. It was really neat how the re-created it. If you like stuff like this, UH is a great show too.



~Sheri
(history nerd.)

 

[jwill]

You're right, about these air mysteries. There is never just one event, it's always a series of small events insignificant by themselves.
I think that I may have seen the Unsolved History program before.
It's my suspicion that there are a lot of us history nerds out there.

I have an interest in all aviation history and read anything I can get my hands on.

For some reason I seem to remember that they had some new development in the Glenn Miller mystery but must admit I don't know that much about it.

 

[Truth]

http://www.ket.org/pressroom/2002/34/GMLF___homepage.html

Combining interviews, archival footage, scientific investigation and dramatic re-creations, the film
cross-cuts the high tensions and emotions of Miller's grueling concert schedule with the Lancaster
bomber crew who were fated to play a role in his death.
--------------------
Can't find the main link but here are the basic things that had to happen perfectly.

1. A Lancaster bomber group were delayed on their flight by weather over the target area in Germeny.

2. They took off late and when they got to the tardet it was still obscured and the mission was aborted.

3. Standard procedure was to go to a certain dump point over the channel to discard their bombs so they could land safely back in England.

4. The same weather kept Miller from making his appointed flight.

5. Miller being a celeb was hanging out impatient to get to France when one of the brass said he would make room on his plane to accomadate Miller.

6. This flight also does not take off on time.

7. They finally take off just in time to be under the Lancaster bomber group as they dumped their bombs so that several of the bombs hit and destroyed Miller's plane.

 

[jwill]

Thanks for the synopsis. I remembered some of it as I read your description. Just as the Baron's fate. The small events keep mounting pointing to a disaster in the making.

 

[Truth]

How about an as yet unsolved air crash mystery ?

Are you following all the details of the 9/11 aircraft events anywhere ?

 

[jwill]

Following the 9/11 aircraft events? Not so much from the aircraft angles. I do enjoy civil aviation but most of my reading etc has been around military aviation. It does however give me another area to read and study in the future.

 

[Truth]

When you take the known information which is not as much as many people think and try to make it fit the apparent goal you end up with a ton of holes. Paul Thompson's timeline is the one of the best sources for info on the orginal flight times and the delays that were involved that some how managed to allow the flights to all just barely get to their targets ahead of being intercepted.