Where have people manners gone?

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Chuck, you are quite right. My point of disagreement with your thought is that its incomplete ~ if assuming that what that eye observes is correct doesn't make it so, then those that assumed this woman was (fill in the many horrible things she's been called) also doesn't make it so. And it has been established that this woman observed a healthy looking child with a broken ankle and has had her character torn to pieces. Thereby, how about if those people who felt they were better than her, apologize to her for actually doing what they assumed she was doing.
 
llandaff said:
I just have to comment here! I am usually the first to stand if an elderly or disabled person needs a seat, but I would not include pregnant women on buses at WDW. Pregnancy is a choice. Surely a woman can go for nine months without visiting Disney?? Especially if she's not feeling healthy!

Vicki.

I have been following this thread since it's beginning and I was not going to comment, but I could not let this one go. Are you for real???!!! Although pregnancy is a "choice" (unlike being disabled), a pregnant woman may still need a seat at the end of the day, whether or not it was her "choice" to be pregnant just as much as any elderly or disabled person deserves a seat. While I will agree that if the pregnancy is high risk or there are complications, maybe a pregnant woman should not be walking all over DW all day, but in an otherwise healthy preganancy, walking is not harmful but can still cause fatigue. Also, it is not necessarily safe for a pregnant woman to be standing on the bus while it is moving. Her center of gravity is changed and balance will be affected possibly causing her to fall and injure herself, her unborn baby or others.

Now, I'm not saying every pregnant woman will need or accept an offer of a seat, but for someone to say "I will not give you my seat because it is your "choice" to be pregnant so you can stand and suffer while I continue to sit here as a fully able bodied person" is obnoxious and ignorant. JMHO
 
metivier said:
TOTALLY agree with this statement. Try taking a stroller (particularly a double stroller) to a mall nowadays, especially during the holiday shopping season rush. I try my best to stay way to the right, keep a steady pace, not "race" in front of people, etc., but I always encounter some bozo who wants to "race and cut" in front of my two children in the stroller like it's a game or something. Sheesh, people -- I'm pushing a stroller -- not warming up for Richard Petty's Driving Experience!!!! ;)

I couldn't agree more! We took our stroller to Epcot during the Food and Wine festival and were amazed at how often people would cut off our stroller, tripping over the front wheels in their haste to get to the next beer. This caused the stroller to suddenly stop, jolting the passengers. Many of these people were tipsy, so that may explain their inattentiveness. People should realized that the jogger-style double strollers do NOT turn on a dime, they have to be tipped backwards slightly and rotated on the back.

As to the OP, I hope you and your children stay healthy and never have to use an ECV or wheelchair. Handicapped children should be given a priority in lines and on busses. It's a huge pain in the neck to move the kids on and off those things, so any advantage given to their exhausted caretakers should be offered without grudge.

As for the bus seats, I can see both sides of the arguement, since people who wait for their own seat, bypasssing earlier crowded busses, are not inclined to give up their seat for another person, no matter how needy the other person is. I get that. But, Disney should stop the practice of packing people into the aisles. It's not safe and it would avoid this whole issue. The one time in the dozens and dozens of bus rides we were in Disney with 3 kids under the age of 4, one sleeping, a cumbersome double stroller, diaper bags.... only one person offered us a seat, and so reluctantly it was pathetic. I took it with the sleeping baby and another lodged between my knees. My poor son, only 4, had to fend for himself while my husband handled all the stuff. Wouldn't you know that was the one time the bus lurched forward and my son fell down. Not one person offered up a seat for him, even after he fell. I was stunned by the lack of courtesy! Stunned, because this is NOT NORMAL on a Disney bus!!! Should I have waited for another bus? Perhaps. But the kids had hit the wall and like everyone else on this bus, we were anxious to get back to our hotel. The inconsistency of Disney busses only contributes to overcrowding, since it can be 20 minutes or more till the next bus arrives. We'd already waited a long time and believe me, I wans't waiting another 20!! And, I'll be honest here, I'd become accustomed to the manners and courtesies of Disney bus riders that I didn't give it a second's thought. Since then, I don't take manners and courtesy for granted. I just assume I'll have to stand and will chose to wait or proceed accordingly. Or, as an earlier poster suggested, I take the car. Now my kids are older and we don't have the need. Life is easier to maneuver, thank God. We always let people with strollers sit now, a payback to all the courtesies we enjoyed over the years while our kids were young, and because I've walked in their shoes I know EXACTLY how exhausting it is to load and unload and collapse and carry that darned stroller as well as ride herd on the kids. I don't think most of those who refuse to give up their seats view themselves as selfish, but see those who are very young, old or pregnant as selfish for needing the extra assistance. I wish them well in their advanced years. I hope they enjoy standing in the aisles with their bad knees and aching back. What goes around comes around. Here's hoping that it will be manners, and not selfishness, that circulates.
 
Can you imagine the uproar if Disney were to start a no standing policy? How cost effective would such a policy be? The busses are designed to accommodate standing passengers.

I look at the bus service as public transportation. During peak times (rush hour) the busses will be packed. If I don't want to stand, I can wait for the next bus, take a cab, or rent a car. There's no way I'd ever make the choice to get on a full bus and then EXPECT someone to give me a seat.
 

Disneyjunkie, I really am trying hard to understand your point but do you understand that the topic isn't tit for tat but able bodied for needy? Why should someone with whatever limitation have to stand an extra 15, 20 or sometimes 45 minutes longer to be able to sit? Kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it? Should the very young, very old, and the infirmed spend less time in the park to save their strength for the bus ride because the able bodied got there first? If so, should give them a park admission discount for their shortened stay? My family and I always defer our seats to those in need (by the way, between us we have 5 of the disorders that have been mentioned in this thread) and I can't understand someone not being happy to do the same if they can. So, the kid with the broken ankle should be ushered to the front of the autograph line without anyone daring to feel anything other than gratitude to God because the kid must have much more than a broken ankle, but the elderly, the toddler, the blind, the arthritic, the pregnant, or even the first timer with bleeding blisters ~ they should stand longer to earn their opportunity to sit? And perhaps we should now debate why everyone was so cruel as to not consider that the pregnant woman did not choose intimacy but was the victim of a violent crime.
 
dcentity2000 said:
You may detest at people who are wheelchair bound being ushered to the front of ques, but remember: which would you rather be? Two places further back in a que for a themepark ride or incapable of carrying out even the most basic daily task without some aide, some compensation, some help? Would you rather stand for an extra forty seconds or never stand again? You may not like this compensation orientated, socialist natured western civilisation that fuels this kind of special treatment, but if you just pause for a second and look at the grand scheme of things, you'd realise that this does very little to counter the problems that they face.Rich::

I never read rileyroosmom rant because she had to wait a couple of minutes longer to meet Daisy. I don't think she would have had a problem with that at all. I read that her dd didn't get to meet Daisy AT ALL possibly due to additional guests being placed in line ahead of her dd.
 
Pregnancy may be a choice for the pregnant woman, but the unborn kid had no say in the matter, so I'll be polite and offer my seat to a pregnant woman just to prevent potential problems that can affect the unborn kid.

But I think the whole, "people in wheelchairs should always be given preference over others" is a flawed arguement. Sure, there is no way to tell whether the person in a wheelchair has a sprained ankle or an inoperable brain tumor and 3 months to live. But by the same token, there is no way to tell is the kid standing in line behind you is blessedly healthy or has an inoperable brain tumor and 3 months to live.

Not all kids in wheelchairs are terminal, and not all terminal conditions require wheelchairs.

People are people. We should never assume that one person is more or less deserving of special treatment than another simply because of thier appearance; appearances can be deceiving in both directions. Those kind of value judgements about who is more or less deserving are very dangerous, because every person has thier own set of values by which they judge, and people tend to get upset if someone else tells them they are less deserving of something.
 
WillCAD! It's great to see you here, old friend!! :wave:

And I'm happy to see that your insight is just as valuable as it always was. Well said, as usual. :D
 
dwkwootton said:
Disneyjunkie, I really am trying hard to understand your point but do you understand that the topic isn't tit for tat but able bodied for needy? Why should someone with whatever limitation have to stand an extra 15, 20 or sometimes 45 minutes longer to be able to sit? Kinda defeats the purpose, doesn't it? Should the very young, very old, and the infirmed spend less time in the park to save their strength for the bus ride because the able bodied got there first? If so, should give them a park admission discount for their shortened stay? My family and I always defer our seats to those in need (by the way, between us we have 5 of the disorders that have been mentioned in this thread) and I can't understand someone not being happy to do the same if they can. So, the kid with the broken ankle should be ushered to the front of the autograph line without anyone daring to feel anything other than gratitude to God because the kid must have much more than a broken ankle, but the elderly, the toddler, the blind, the arthritic, the pregnant, or even the first timer with bleeding blisters ~ they should stand longer to earn their opportunity to sit? And perhaps we should now debate why everyone was so cruel as to not consider that the pregnant woman did not choose intimacy but was the victim of a violent crime.

My point is I try to avoid putting myself in a position where I'll be dependent on the kindness of strangers. We all make choices. If I'm pregnant and make the choice to get on a crowded bus, I may have to stand up. If someone gives me a seat great, but I would never get angry if someone doesn't. It's up to me to decide if I'll step to the side and wait for the next bus or get on a crowded one.
 
You shouldn't make assumptions! Although my mom wasn't in a scooter on our family trip to WDW in June, she was in a wheelchair to her dismay. She is only 63 yrs old, was active and traveling with my dad, no medications and found out she has terminal recurrent breast cancer that has spread to her bones and now bone marrow. We found out one month before we left that her weight bearing hip joint was in jeopardy of fracturing. Although to look at her you would never know she is as sick as she is even now. My mom was one of those people you talk about that was lifted in her wheelchair and moved to another seat when she got on the bus. She did it so people like you would have a place to sit. The wheelchairs/scooters take up several seats and my mom didn't want to take up seats that other people would be able use. Each time someone in our family would fold the wheelchair for the ride to the hotel and unfold it again when we arrived so she could be lifted to the ground. The reason she had to do that was because the first step when you get on the bus is a big step and she tried it our first day there and her hip hurt for hours after that. This was a trip we had planned 1 1/2 yrs prior and found out about her cancer returning after 17 yrs six months prior to our trip. She insisted on going because she knew it would be her last family vacation. Just because people don't look sick to you on the outside, you never know the reason for that wheelchair or scooter. Be thankful your family is healthy! I hope you never find yourself being one of those in a wheelchair or scooter.
 
llandaff said:
I just have to comment here! I am usually the first to stand if an elderly or disabled person needs a seat, but I would not include pregnant women on buses at WDW. Pregnancy is a choice. Surely a woman can go for nine months without visiting Disney?? Especially if she's not feeling healthy!

Vicki.

I just repeat my earlier post. I was a flight attendant. In order to fly pregnant, I had to get a note signed by my Dr. every month saying that it was okay for me to lift a bag weighing 50lbs above my shoulders, as part of my job was storing bags in the overhead bins for those passengers who were disabled. My Dr. signed this every month. One week my DH went out of town, and we ran out of cat litter...I went to the store, bought it, and brought it home. I started bleeding almost immediately. It weighed no where NEAR the 50lbs that my Dr. said I could lift. I bled for three days (at 18 wks). It taught me a VERY valuable lesson...pregnant women can be much more fragile than we know. I thought I was tough, and strong, and felt just fine...until I wasn't.

Sometimes there is no correlation between "feeling healthy" and being healthy where pregnancy is concerned. I have a friend who wore big sweatshirts in her pregnancy to DL so she could ride the rides she really wasn't supposed to. While I was appaled...she had no problems. I have another friend who had NO problems whatsoever, but was EXTREMELY cautious...she miscarried while walking around at the zoo with her 4-yr old son...she had NO warning, and had felt "fine" the whole pregnancy.

Willcad was right...it's not about standing for the woman who "chose" pregnancy (thank God that with this day and age of birth control, women still "choose" pregnancy!) It's all about standing for that baby...and, helping a woman who either might not know her own limitations, or refuses to believe them.

I would NEVER expect for anyone to stand for me (as I have said...courtesy is a gift, it CANNOT be an expectation). But, when possible...I would be proud to stand for anyone, anywhere, anytime!!! So, if you are ever on my bus...you can have my seat!! :sunny:

:wave:

Beca
 
llandaff said:
I just have to comment here! I am usually the first to stand if an elderly or disabled person needs a seat, but I would not include pregnant women on buses at WDW. Pregnancy is a choice. Surely a woman can go for nine months without visiting Disney?? Especially if she's not feeling healthy!

Vicki.

:eek: :rolleyes:
 
cepmom said:
Now, I'm not saying every pregnant woman will need or accept an offer of a seat, but for someone to say "I will not give you my seat because it is your "choice" to be pregnant so you can stand and suffer while I continue to sit here as a fully able bodied person" is obnoxious and ignorant. JMHO


Wow. You make it sound like I'm going to be sitting there smirking as a woman who is seven months pregnant lurches precariously next to me! I can assure you that would not happen (even though, unknown to you, I am deaf in one ear and have tremendous problems balancing myself on moving vehicles).

I am just trying to point out that there is a huge difference between someone needing assistance because they are disabled and someone who is in a chosen, temporary situation. A woman who is pregnant and then chooses to go to WDW, chooses to use the bus and chooses to use it at peak time is being selfish if she expects to sit down on a crowded bus IMO.

Vicki.
 
Disneyjunkie, thanks for clarifying and I do understand better what you are saying now. Sad though, isn't it? Walt must be rolling over in his grave from this thread. Can you all just see Walt sitting tight in his bus seat because he got there first, that gal made a choice to get pregnant, that fella made a choice to have a 1 yr old & 3 yr old, grandpa's family made a choice not to rent a car, or he's been wanting to sit next to his wife all day? And another challenge (since the first produced 0 results) to those who attacked the character of the OP on assumption. Can you own it and apologize as quickly as you unfairly judged her?
 
Many on this thread are doing exactly what they are accusing the OP of doing; being insensitive and judgmental. How sad. :(
 
Maybe it's time to all step back and assess our own prejudices and judgements regarding others. Looking on the bright side, I think these sorts of discussions do help us to stop and think, rather than plough ahead with our ingrained beliefs.

Also I think sometimes these threads are a bit like playing Chinese whispers. Someone doesn't express themselves perfectly (I'm first in line for not being blessed with articulatory skills), someone else picks up on one sentence, misinterprets what the OP meant, posts a quick reply which in turn colors everyone else's interpretation of the original post.

Vicki.
 
dwkwootton said:
And another challenge (since the first produced 0 results) to those who attacked the character of the OP on assumption. Can you own it and apologize as quickly as you unfairly judged her?

I think this is coming back to the same point. You can't ASK someone to apologize and have it mean the same as someone choosing to do so. And, people feel VERY strongly about this issue. There are some people (I am not one of them, btw) who feel that the op's post was offensive...some people feel she is "right on". There really is no "meeting ground" on this one, and people are going to have to agree to disagree...and, that is everyone's right.

But, this thread has pretty much deteriorated to a seat on a bus....let's remember....it's just a seat on a bus!!! It shouldn't overshadow all of the WONDERFUL things at WDW, and it shouldn't ruin anyone's day if you don't get one. If you REALLY need a seat, you might want to politely ask someone if they would mind. If not, enjoy the "sights" as you look around. Even "standing" on a bus at WDW is better than any day a work!!! And, if you see someone that you perceive is in need...why not offer them your seat...it's just a nice thing to do. Otherwise, let it go and enjoy your vacation!!!

:wave:

Beca

P.S. Did you check out my counter?!!! I am SOOOO excited!!!!
 
Beca said:
I think this is coming back to the same point. You can't ASK someone to apologize and have it mean the same as someone choosing to do so. And, people feel VERY strongly about this issue. There are some people (I am not one of them, btw) who feel that the op's post was offensive...some people feel she is "right on". There really is no "meeting ground" on this one, and people are going to have to agree to disagree...and, that is everyone's right.

But, this thread has pretty much deteriorated to a seat on a bus....let's remember....it's just a seat on a bus!!! It shouldn't overshadow all of the WONDERFUL things at WDW, and it shouldn't ruin anyone's day if you don't get one. If you REALLY need a seat, you might want to politely ask someone if they would mind. If not, enjoy the "sights" as you look around. Even "standing" on a bus at WDW is better than any day a work!!! And, if you see someone that you perceive is in need...why not offer them your seat...it's just a nice thing to do. Otherwise, let it go and enjoy your vacation!!!

:wave:

Beca

P.S. Did you check out my counter?!!! I am SOOOO excited!!!!

Beca, as usual, you bring a tone of reason and civility to the discourse. This would be a GREAT place to end this thread on such a high note.
 
I think its a great suggestion to end this thread on a high note. Beca's input is very helpful and I hope many people will choose to apologize to this young mom as they realize that this issue was never what she was talking about.
 
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