When should parents start making their girls wear shirts around the house and yard?

[dngnb8]

I think what some folks are missing is that in SOME places, the social norm is to make little girls wear tops at the pool.

In SOME places, the social norm is for them to go topless at the pool.

There is no ONE "social norm" that rules over all, everywhere.

I think rather than saying, "That's the social norm," you'd be a lot more accurate if you said, "That's the way things are done where I live."

There's more to the world than just Middle America. And even in Middle America, the "social norms" are going to vary from place to place.

Im completely offended by your post.

Everyone knows My Normal is the Normal Normal. Only Normal Normals conform to Normal Normality.

 

[Arielle22]

Little girls (and even boys) should not run around without a top because they should be protected from the sun. Yes, their arms and legs will still be exposed but since they are exposed to sun more or less on a daily basis, there is not as big a chance for sunburn as on their upper torso.

I have two teen daughters and they have worn shirts since they were potty trained. There was no long discussion, they were told that now that they were older everything got covered when they were out in public.

I never knew until I read this board that wearing clothes meant you were sexualizing someone. I just thought it was so that we didn't all go blind looking at the flab!

 

[Bunnyfeather]

I am not double talking, I am explaining my motivations.

The social norm where I live is for any child over 18 months old to have a gendered swimsuit and be at least that covered when outdoors. If I moved to a more strict or "modest" place tomorrow, I would adjust accordingly. If I moved to a less strict or "modest" place tomorrow, I would loosen my guidelines accordingly. None of that has to do with sexuality. The rules come into being due to each culture's understanding of sexuality, absolutely. But for many people, that understanding of sexuality is not the reason they abide by the norms.

And anyone who says they don't care what society thinks is over-simplifying. We don't actually get a choice, we are shaped by our culture to think and feel. Many choices we make every day are driven by norms in our culture, even as we reject other norms. It may be that you have different posters commenting about being a SAHM vs. swimsuit norms, it is a big online community.

 

[topolino]

I think what some folks are missing is that in SOME places, the social norm is to make little girls wear tops at the pool.

In SOME places, the social norm is for them to go topless at the pool.

There is no ONE "social norm" that rules over all, everywhere.

I think rather than saying, "That's the social norm," you'd be a lot more accurate if you said, "That's the way things are done where I live."

There's more to the world than just Middle America. And even in Middle America, the "social norms" are going to vary from place to place.

I agree, there are definitely going to be cultural differences, for sure.

I have family in Italy and try to get out there at least every other summer to see them. I think a lot of Americans are under the perception that on every beach in Europe women are quick to whip off their tops as soon as they hit the sand. This isn't actually the case, and many Italian beaches are designated as topless or non topless. In all the time spent on Italian beaches, I've seen very few topless women, in fact probably less than three.

This doesn't have a lot to do with the original topic, I just wanted to point out that while it may seem that norms in far off lands are completely different than those of Middle America, that isn't always the case. In other cases, yes, Culture Shock is an appropriately named term.

 

[dngnb8]

You just qualified your post.

That being said, your motives were born out of a culture who associates topless with a sexual content. In these terms, Modesty from the root of modest has a sub definition of chaste.

Modest synonyms would be shy, demure, small, chaste.

 

[Conservative Hippie]

When I was a little girl in the 1970's we regularly drove down to the Jersey Shore to play in the ocean. Up to about two or three, I wore nothing. After that I wore underwear, and that was it - no top. That was the "cultural norm" for that time and place. You can find newspaper file photos from Central Park in the seventies showing completely naked children playing in the fountains.

Then in 1977, the beach suddenly posted a new rule. ALL women, of any age, had to be covered top and bottom. My mum was caught unaware, and we had to make a dash to the beach store to pick up a bathing suit for me. All they had were skimpy bikinis!

My mum was spitting nails. She said it was ridiculous to sexualize little girls like that, and that all a bikini top did was encourage people to pretend they had something they didn't (ie, breasts). She really felt that sticking me IN a bikini was immodest. Letting me go topless - that was no problem at all.

But we have a great photo of me standing in the heavy surf with my string bikini top rolled up under my armpits (covering not a darn thing), and my string bikini bottom filled up with sand and falling right off.

I agree with your mom - I would much rather see a baby in just a swim diaper than a string bikini.

 

[FireDancer]

I have a lot of friends with kids around that age and none have topless pictures on the Internet. Whether or not the kid wears a top isn't really the issue, it isn't my kid or my business, but posting pictures of them online is. Even if you have your Facebook account completely locked down and private those pictures are still sitting on public servers and in public caches and often times end up out in public. I think the assumption made before posting anything online should be that the picture will appear on a billboard in Times Square at some point down the line and if you wouldn't want the picture there don't post it anywhere.

It isn't because a pedophile might see them but because they are all smart enough to realize that those pictures will be out in the public domain forever once they are anywhere online and at some point down the road their daughter might not like that her friends or classmates can look at topless pictures of her at the age of 6.

 

[mjkacmom]

It has been my experience that modesty is self-taught. My oldest would've been comfortable naked on the front lawn at the age of 3. I haven't seen her uncovered at all in about 4 years. I haven't seen ds13 naked in the past couple of years, and his siblings haven't seen him naked even longer. My youngest are fine naked at home, but would run if a non-immediate family member came into the room. I expect dd10 to start becoming much more modest very, very soon.

I see nothing wrong with a 6 year old not wearing a top in her own backyard. I wouldn't be offended by the pictures, but I wouldn't post them on a public forum. I wouldn't hesitate to send them to close family/friends.

 

[mjkacmom]

Little girls (and even boys) should not run around without a top because they should be protected from the sun. Yes, their arms and legs will still be exposed but since they are exposed to sun more or less on a daily basis, there is not as big a chance for sunburn as on their upper torso.

I have two teen daughters and they have worn shirts since they were potty trained. There was no long discussion, they were told that now that they were older everything got covered when they were out in public.

I never knew until I read this board that wearing clothes meant you were sexualizing someone. I just thought it was so that we didn't all go blind looking at the flab!

All of my girls usually just wore a swim diaper until they were potty trained, and then just bikinis, unless boogie boarding, and not one case of sunburn. And they have zero body fat, so no one is looking at their flab! And really, what would be the point of dd15's belly button piercing, if she wore a shirt? She's not allowed to wear belly shirts, so covering up her bikini would make her sad.

 

[ZellyB]

My thoughts, as well. When the child is self conscious of it.

My daughters are 8 years old and love to swim topless in our backyard. They say they are swimming like French women!

I wouldn't post pictures on the internet of them mostly because they are choosing to be naked in their own backyard, not on a public forum. But, I see absolutely no problem with it when they are home and are totally comfortable that way. They understand that in certain confines and at their age they can choose to be naked. They understand that those same parameters don't exist at school or Wal-Mart.

 

[Colleen27]

I never really gave it much thought. By the time she was school aged my daughter really wasn't interested in going topless. Around 4 or 5 she realized all on her own that "big girls" always wear shirts and started emulating that. It wasn't something we set out to teach and I'm not sure what age we would have decided to "correct" the behaviour if she hadn't outgrown it on her own. Our 3yo DD still runs around shirtless sometimes, though not as often as her big sister did because she wants to be just like the 9yo, right down to her fashion choices.

 

[goofy!]

I have a lot of friends with kids around that age and none have topless pictures on the Internet. Whether or not the kid wears a top isn't really the issue, it isn't my kid or my business, but posting pictures of them online is. Even if you have your Facebook account completely locked down and private those pictures are still sitting on public servers and in public caches and often times end up out in public. I think the assumption made before posting anything online should be that the picture will appear on a billboard in Times Square at some point down the line and if you wouldn't want the picture there don't post it anywhere.

It isn't because a pedophile might see them but because they are all smart enough to realize that those pictures will be out in the public domain forever once they are anywhere online and at some point down the road their daughter might not like that her friends or classmates can look at topless pictures of her at the age of 6.

why not? There is nothing on a 6 year old to be embarrassed about. My parents have hundreds of pictures of me running around at 6 without a top. Many of them are in frames hanging on the wall, on the piano, etc.

Never once was I embarrassed if my friends saw them because I was never made to feel ashamed of my body. And since there was nothing there to see, I never saw the big deal of it.

Internet? I probably wouldn't post 6 year olds, but I don't see anything wrong with another parent doing it. There is nothing shameful of a 6 year old running around topless. Unless they are experiencing early puberty and already have a bit more than a 6 year old boy.

At that age, there is absolutely nothing different between a topless 6 year old girl or a topless 6 year old boy.

 

[goofy!]

Little girls (and even boys) should not run around without a top because they should be protected from the sun. Yes, their arms and legs will still be exposed but since they are exposed to sun more or less on a daily basis, there is not as big a chance for sunburn as on their upper torso.

I have two teen daughters and they have worn shirts since they were potty trained. There was no long discussion, they were told that now that they were older everything got covered when they were out in public.

I never knew until I read this board that wearing clothes meant you were sexualizing someone. I just thought it was so that we didn't all go blind looking at the flab!

That is what sunscreen is for.

I cannot imagine my kids' swim team if all the kids were required to wear tops, including the boys.

 

[FireDancer]

why not? There is nothing on a 6 year old to be embarrassed about. My parents have hundreds of pictures of me running around at 6 without a top. Many of them are in frames hanging on the wall, on the piano, etc.

Never once was I embarrassed if my friends saw them because I was never made to feel ashamed of my body. And since there was nothing there to see, I never saw the big deal of it.

Internet? I probably wouldn't post 6 year olds, but I don't see anything wrong with another parent doing it. There is nothing shameful of a 6 year old running around topless. Unless they are experiencing early puberty and already have a bit more than a 6 year old boy.

At that age, there is absolutely nothing different between a topless 6 year old girl or a topless 6 year old boy.

Regarding the bolded, that is exactly what I am saying. I don't really care what anyone else does I'm just giving my reasons why I wouldn't do it and why I think it is ill-advised. If you don't think the pictures will cause embarrassment down the line feel free to post them for the world to see.

Remember though that just because you weren't embarrassed about it doesn't mean another kid won't be. If you were you could just ask your parents to take the picture around the house down. If they were on the Internet they are there forever. I'd rather err on the side of not posting them online for the world to see (and anywhere online is basically for the world to see).

It is better to err on the side of caution when posting pictures of someone else online when that someone else is too young to know how they feel about it down the line. I hear all the time on these boards that some girls are embarrassed by everything at some point in their adolescence. Why take the chance that you are adding to their insecurity?

 

[Arielle22]

That is what sunscreen is for.

I cannot imagine my kids' swim team if all the kids were required to wear tops, including the boys.

It depends on your skin. I can wear SPF 50 and not be out long but still get color. I have nephews who are 2.5 and 5.5. Both wear shirts while swimming along with sunscreen.

Here in MA the swim teams I know are indoors so it isn't an issue.

 

[lillygator]

never really thought about it, but as a parent of 2 girls - they have never gone without a shirt or some sort of bathing suit...really do most kids go topless for a majority of their young life? never heard of it and we live in FL where minimal clothing is a must most of the year. I mean, why would kids go around the house half dressed?

and I do think it's kind of odd for the op to bring this up...just a weird topic.

 

[goofy!]

Regarding the bolded, that is exactly what I am saying. I don't really care what anyone else does I'm just giving my reasons why I wouldn't do it and why I think it is ill-advised. If you don't think the pictures will cause embarrassment down the line feel free to post them for the world to see.

Remember though that just because you weren't embarrassed about it doesn't mean another kid won't be. If you were you could just ask your parents to take the picture around the house down. If they were on the Internet they are there forever. I'd rather err on the side of not posting them online for the world to see (and anywhere online is basically for the world to see).

It is better to err on the side of caution when posting pictures of someone else online when that someone else is too young to know how they feel about it down the line. I hear all the time on these boards that some girls are embarrassed by everything at some point in their adolescence. Why take the chance that you are adding to their insecurity?

They are only going to be embarrassed if they are taught that a 6 year old shirtless body is not ok and something to be embarrassed about.

Parents who are raising their kids more conservatively wouldn't have pictures of them shirtless at 6.

Parents who think it is ok to be shirtless at 6 are probably instilling those values into their kids too, so no reason to be embarrassed later in life.

 

[goofy!]

It depends on your skin. I can wear SPF 50 and not be out long but still get color. I have nephews who are 2.5 and 5.5. Both wear shirts while swimming along with sunscreen.

Here in MA the swim teams I know are indoors so it isn't an issue.

Better check your information.

Going to the New England Swimming LSC website http://www.teamunify.com/SubTabGeneric.jsp?team=lscnes&_stabid_=16408, the first 4 swim clubs I looked at in Mass all utilized outdoor pools in the summer. Didn't bother to heck any others, but I am guessing a vast majority either practice or compete in outdoor pools. My cousin's kids swim in New England and I knew they all swam outside, so I wanted to double check to see if I was mistaken.
Nope.

 

[cornflake]

Modesty does not need to have a sexual basis. My son is 3. If I did not instruct him otherwise, he would whip out his ***** in public for the sheer joy of it. He is very proud of his *****. There is nothing sexual in his desire to get naked. There is nothing sexual in my desire to keep him appropriately clothed with the ***** put away while I pay for groceries. He is instructed to keep his pants and shirt and shoes on in stores. Modesty has to do with cultural norms for body coverage in various settings. If it was the cultural norm to wear a hat, we would do that, too.

I think there's a semantic thing going on here.

When people started talking about having "the" modesty conversation or when they started teaching their kids about modesty I was kind of taken aback as certainly no one ever had such a conversation with me (oh, for a flasher smiley), and I'd never in a million years think to have a conversation about modesty or needing to be modest with any child.

Covering up genitalia in public is an entirely different thing, as that's a general social norm. I don't think that's modesty-based at all (though people may do the same thing out of modesty, I see a difference between 'you should be modest and keep covered' and 'keep your pants zipped in the bank.').

The 'modesty' thing I think in general does carry a negative connotation. It certainly does to me (though clearly not others). It smacks of body shame, sexualizing, sex being 'dirty,' particular religious mores, etc., etc.

As for the original question - when and if she feels like it when she has something to cover. I don't mean she should go to school at 15 unclothed from the waist up but in her home or in a place where men are also topless? no big.

 

[mickeyboat]

On an incredibly hot day when I was 6, I wanted to take off my shirt to cool off. My brother wasn't wearing one. My mom said not to, but I did it anway. It wasn't fair that I had to wear one and he didn't.

So I trotted down to my friend's house to see if she could play. Her mom answered when I knocked on the door. She was horrified, and let me know it. She refused to let me in and refused to let her DD out until I went home and put on a shirt.

I was humiliated. I put on a shirt and went back. But I didn't understand the big deal. It wasn't a sexual thing - I didn't have anything to show and wouldn't have understood that anyway. Not that I should have been running around without a shirt, but she didn't need to make me feel awful about it. I was just trying to figure things out.