When religion and science collide

Saxton

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I came across a a great editorial in USA Today written by a Baptist Minister. He makes some very good points against discrimination of gays and lesbians by religious groups based on their interpretations of the bible. But his big point is that science is very close (I believe we're already there) to proving once and for all that being gay/lesbian is a matter of birth and that churches are going to have to come to terms with their teachings being proven wrong by science.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-11-19-forum-religion_x.htm

When religion loses its credibility
Posted 11/19/2006 8:24 PM ET;
By Oliver "Buzz" Thomas

What if Christian leaders are wrong about homosexuality? I suppose, much as a newspaper maintains its credibility by setting the record straight, church leaders would need to do the same:
Correction: Despite what you might have read, heard or been taught throughout your churchgoing life, homosexuality is, in fact, determined at birth and is not to be condemned by God's followers.

Based on a few recent headlines, we won't be seeing that admission anytime soon. Last week, U.S. Roman Catholic bishops took the position that homosexual attractions are "disordered" and that gays should live closeted lives of chastity. At the same time, North Carolina's Baptist State Convention was preparing to investigate churches that are too gay-friendly. Even the more liberal Presbyterian Church (USA) had been planning to put a minister on trial for conducting a marriage ceremony for two women before the charges were dismissed on a technicality. All this brings me back to the question: What if we're wrong?

Religion's only real commodity, after all, is its moral authority. Lose that, and we lose our credibility. Lose credibility, and we might as well close up shop.

It's happened to Christianity before, most famously when we dug in our heels over Galileo's challenge to the biblical view that the Earth, rather than the sun, was at the center of our solar system. You know the story. Galileo was persecuted for what turned out to be incontrovertibly true. For many, especially in the scientific community, Christianity never recovered.

This time, Christianity is in danger of squandering its moral authority by continuing its pattern of discrimination against gays and lesbians in the face of mounting scientific evidence that sexual orientation has little or nothing to do with choice. To the contrary, whether sexual orientation arises as a result of the mother's hormones or the child's brain structure or DNA, it is almost certainly an accident of birth. The point is this: Without choice, there can be no moral culpability.

Answer in Scriptures

So, why are so many church leaders (not to mention Orthodox Jewish and Muslim leaders) persisting in their view that homosexuality is wrong despite a growing stream of scientific evidence that is likely to become a torrent in the coming years? The answer is found in Leviticus 18. "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination."

As a former "the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it" kind of guy, I am sympathetic with any Christian who accepts the Bible at face value. But here's the catch. Leviticus is filled with laws imposing the death penalty for everything from eating catfish to sassing your parents. If you accept one as the absolute, unequivocal word of God, you must accept them all.

For many of gay America's loudest critics, the results are unthinkable. First, no more football. At least not without gloves. Handling a pig skin is an abomination. Second, no more Saturday games even if you can get a new ball. Violating the Sabbath is a capital offense according to Leviticus. For the over-40 crowd, approaching the altar of God with a defect in your sight is taboo, but you'll have plenty of company because those menstruating or with disabilities are also barred.

The truth is that mainstream religion has moved beyond animal sacrifice, slavery and the host of primitive rituals described in Leviticus centuries ago. Selectively hanging onto these ancient proscriptions for gays and lesbians exclusively is unfair according to anybody's standard of ethics. We lawyers call it "selective enforcement," and in civil affairs it's illegal.

A better reading of Scripture starts with the book of Genesis and the grand pronouncement about the world God created and all those who dwelled in it. "And, the Lord saw that it was good." If God created us and if everything he created is good, how can a gay person be guilty of being anything more than what God created him or her to be?

Turning to the New Testament, the writings of the Apostle Paul at first lend credence to the notion that homosexuality is a sin, until you consider that Paul most likely is referring to the Roman practice of pederasty, a form of pedophilia common in the ancient world. Successful older men often took boys into their homes as concubines, lovers or sexual slaves. Today, such sexual exploitation of minors is no longer tolerated. The point is that the sort of long-term, committed, same-sex relationships that are being debated today are not addressed in the New Testament. It distorts the biblical witness to apply verses written in one historical context (i.e. sexual exploitation of children) to contemporary situations between two monogamous partners of the same sex. Sexual promiscuity is condemned by the Bible whether it's between gays or straights. Sexual fidelity is not.

What would Jesus do?

For those who have lingering doubts, dust off your Bibles and take a few hours to reacquaint yourself with the teachings of Jesus. You won't find a single reference to homosexuality. There are teachings on money, lust, revenge, divorce, fasting and a thousand other subjects, but there is nothing on homosexuality. Strange, don't you think, if being gay were such a moral threat?

On the other hand, Jesus spent a lot of time talking about how we should treat others. First, he made clear it is not our role to judge. It is God's. ("Judge not lest you be judged." Matthew 7:1) And, second, he commanded us to love other people as we love ourselves.

So, I ask you. Would you want to be discriminated against? Would you want to lose your job, housing or benefits because of something over which you had no control? Better yet, would you like it if society told you that you couldn't visit your lifelong partner in the hospital or file a claim on his behalf if he were murdered?

The suffering that gay and lesbian people have endured at the hands of religion is incalculable, but they can look expectantly to the future for vindication. Scientific facts, after all, are a stubborn thing. Even our religious beliefs must finally yield to them as the church in its battle with Galileo ultimately realized. But for religion, the future might be ominous. Watching the growing conflict between medical science and religion over homosexuality is like watching a train wreck from a distance. You can see it coming for miles and sense the inevitable conclusion, but you're powerless to stop it. The more church leaders dig in their heels, the worse it's likely to be.

Oliver "Buzz" Thomas is a Baptist minister and author of an upcoming book, 10 Things Your Minister Wants to Tell You (But Can't Because He Needs the Job).
 
Well written, interesting article. :)
 
Great article but the author underestimates the church's ability to ignore the facts. After all they didn't admit that they were wrong about Galileo until 1992, they tried him in 1633.

Anyone else think that Leviticus was psychotic? He must have had some sort of serious mental illness.
 
Ahhh... it's just GOOD :goodvibes to know that there are other voices in what sometimes seems to be a religious monolith of self-righteous intolerance... I bet he's catching plenty of crap even so.
 

I have always puzzled over those who seem to believe that homosexuality is the A-number-one biggest sin of all time (think folks like Phelps). As this author points out, Jesus seemed to forget to mention the subject all together. God seems to have left it out of the 10 commandments. The bible is a huge book and the topic of homosexuality is barely mentioned and most biblical passages on the subject are in question if one bothers to look closely at what is being said.
 
Dang, how'd I miss this?
Thanks for postin' this Saxton.
I don't usually listen to preachers,
well, except Viki, she's my fave. :teeth:
 
I need to print this out for some of the ladies at work....
 
Uncle Remus said:
Dang, how'd I miss this?
Thanks for postin' this Saxton.
I don't usually listen to preachers,
well, except Viki, she's my fave. :teeth:


It is soooooo mutual darlin' :cloud9:

And, along these lines, I had an epiphany this morning (I know, I know it's only Advent, but the Spirit blows where and when it will!)

In any event, the epiphany is that over the next few years the place from which we are going to see the most momentum on LGBT acceptance is going to be from our evangelical brothers and sisters.

I know, I know, it's hard to believe. But think about it. The Mainline denominations can't get over themselves enough to be prophetic on this issue and one of the reasons they are so anxiety based is because they know they lack cache. That is, even when they make prophetic moves, the masses yawn and say, "Yeah, so, they're not really all that religious any way are they?"

But, now, change your frame of mind and think "Nixon and China," "Reagan and Gorbachav." That is, what we know from both of these examples, and many, many others, is that it's the folk with pedigree in one camp that have the most integrity when they speak in another.

So, for example, the world yawns when liberal religious get all touchy-feely about LGBTs, but when Tammy Fay Baker's son starts a group that accepts all people - and keeps its evangelical focus - the press perks up. Same thing a few years back when Tony Campolo and his wife traveled the country debating and talking sensibly on the topic (Tony is still not convinced totally, but his wife is).

I've seen other evidence over the past few years that something is afoot, mainly in my personal conversations with the evangelicals I know and respect, but somehow it all came together this morning.

I am now convinced it's our evangelical sisters and brothers who are increasinly seeing the light on this issue and as a result they'll be leading the societal transformation that takes us to a whole new level of acceptance.

It's not going to come from folk of no particular faith, America is still way too "religious" and mainline folk have put themselves on the sidelines. So, God needs to get this thing done some other way and guess who he's going to - his most fervant troops.

And, when they start seeing the light, watch the world take notice.
 
Viki said:
It is soooooo mutual darlin' :cloud9:

And, along these lines, I had an epiphany this morning (I know, I know it's only Advent, but the Spirit blows where and when it will!)

In any event, the epiphany is that over the next few years the place from which we are going to see the most momentum on LGBT acceptance is going to be from our evangelical brothers and sisters.

I know, I know, it's hard to believe. But think about it. The Mainline denominations can't get over themselves enough to be prophetic on this issue and one of the reasons they are so anxiety based is because they know they lack cache. That is, even when they make prophetic moves, the masses yawn and say, "Yeah, so, they're not really all that religious any way are they?"

But, now, change your frame of mind and think "Nixon and China," "Reagan and Gorbachav." That is, what we know from both of these examples, and many, many others, is that it's the folk with pedigree in one camp that have the most integrity when they speak in another.

So, for example, the world yawns when liberal religious get all touchy-feely about LGBTs, but when Tammy Fay Baker's son starts a group that accepts all people - and keeps its evangelical focus - the press perks up. Same thing a few years back when Tony Campolo and his wife traveled the country debating and talking sensibly on the topic (Tony is still not convinced totally, but his wife is).

I've seen other evidence over the past few years that something is afoot, mainly in my personal conversations with the evangelicals I know and respect, but somehow it all came together this morning.

I am now convinced it's our evangelical sisters and brothers who are increasinly seeing the light on this issue and as a result they'll be leading the societal transformation that takes us to a whole new level of acceptance.

It's not going to come from folk of no particular faith, America is still way too "religious" and mainline folk have put themselves on the sidelines. So, God needs to get this thing done some other way and guess who he's going to - his most fervant troops.

And, when they start seeing the light, watch the world take notice.

Can I get an amen!
 
Rence said:
I have always puzzled over those who seem to believe that homosexuality is the A-number-one biggest sin of all time (think folks like Phelps). As this author points out, Jesus seemed to forget to mention the subject all together. God seems to have left it out of the 10 commandments. The bible is a huge book and the topic of homosexuality is barely mentioned and most biblical passages on the subject are in question if one bothers to look closely at what is being said.
There should be no puzzlement. It's the same game Shrub has been playing for six years--put fear into people about terrorists, and they'll do anything. The religious right does the same to keep its power base--"Since we've lost focus of what God truly means to people, let's scare the beejeebers out of them and bring up homosexuals as a threat to their very salvation and existence." Sadly, it works too often.
 
Uncle Remus said:
Spirit Filled: party:

What kind of spirit are we talking here -
151, Bombay, Thunderbird, Boone's Farm - What?
:rolleyes:
 
wallyb said:
What kind of spirit are we talking here -
151, Bombay, Thunderbird, Boone's Farm - What?
:rolleyes:
:lmao:
Why midtown manhattans, of course!
Then again, you're free to choose too ;)
 
Interesting article, but the logic of "if an orientation is present from birth, it may not be condemned" seems to fail. Some studies suggest pedophilia begins from birth or at a very early age, but even if it were established as scientific fact that pedophiles can't help but be drawn sexually to children, can we no longer morally condemn the behavior? I'd suggest no; orientation does not equate to action, and actions may still be condemned as immoral.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to equate homosexuality to pedophilia on a moral scale; don't read too much into the example. I'm stating no position on the morality of homosexuality. I'm merely questioning one of the author's underlying premises. I just find no logical link between the morality of any particular behavior and one's in-born tendencies toward the same behavior. I can be short-tempered at times and maybe I was born that way, but I'm still not justified in punching someone in the nose if they tick me off.
 












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