What do you think about picking teams in gym class?

[ADisneyQueen]

I'm the OP and I was talking about PE classes, not organized teams.

 

[FergieTCat]

Respectfully, though - academic/review type games arent't the normal classroom activity. Physical activity - frequently involving team games - IS the norm for physical education classes.

For those of you who indicate that some kids aren't good at reading, or at public speaking, or at math, or science - true. But in those cases, the teachers work with the students to improve skills. How frequently - and be completely truthful - does that happen in a gym class?

To the best of my recollection, never; so I'll concede to rarely. Instead, the SAME period-by-period 'team'-selecting procedure has been in existence for YEARS. It's been that long since I've been out of school. There's extra help available for reading or math - but for gym? Nope. You just get to spend your entire school life being picked last.

From my own personal life experience, as an adult, it's been more important for me to be able to read and do math than it has been to catch a ball.

Also, even though my contributions as a team-player were undervalued in elementary school, I can still hold my own in a department meeting.

I'm sorry a child's feelings were hurt. I know elementary school can be rough. But you will do more harm than good if you micromanage his or her life.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Honors forms came home with every 6th student, they had to write an essay and my dd's teacher picked the top 5 essays and hung them up outside of her door. Kids are picked based on their ability for pretty much everything, and its not really a secret to the kids to see who excells at what and who does not

Respectfully, unless there are just six students in the class (or participating, which doesn't sound like the case here), it's not comparable to being one of the last two or three people picked by classmates in PE - plus, the judging of the honors essays seems as if it was done by the teacher... not classmates?

Is it sad when a little girl feels awful because she didn't get picked first, sure. Should you tell her to suck it up, yes, maybe not that way but she definitely needs to hear that sometimes we don't get picked first

It doesn't sound, from luvsJack's reports, that the girl was upset about not getting picked first; it sounds as if she was upset about not getting picked AT ALL. Now, this could have been literal, or she could have just been the 'left over, stuck on a team by the PE teacher' student - but the girl's issue was definitely NOT over simply not getting picked first.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Okay, somebody needs to clarify this thread for me; not only am I a known nonathletic klutz, it's starting to look more and more as if I'm not as intelligent as I always thought I was.

Are we talking about TEAMS and the like - organized competive or performing groups, where aspirants' abilities are generally expected to meet or exceed certain standards and whose long-term (school year, season, etc.) participation is determined by tryouts and judged by - ideally - qualified adults?

Or are we talking about physical education CLASSES - during which, up to three times a week, the so-called teachers absolve themselves of their duties by choosing several (generally the most talented) students to then choose their own teams, often leaving the SAME few students standing in embarrassed silence while the team 'captains' argue over who gets stuck with the poor players, klutzes, etc?

Yes, there's a HUGE difference.

The thread is about being picked for a TEAM during CLASS. You know, one group plays another in an athletic game of some sort.

Being picked last for whatever TEAM in whatever CLASS is a rite of passage. Perhaps instead of worrying about the kids being damaged by being picked last, we should worry about why they're so dang fragile.

I am currently dealing with the consequences of the new, touchy-feely-everybody-wins brand of educating and raising children. As a result, I have a nice pile of twenty-somethings who interpret any critique of their work as a deeply cutting personal attack.

I don't want to design an education system geared at humiliation and intimidation, but I'm ready to say that we can't eliminate adversity from the process.

 

[gina2000]

What you all are not understanding is that doing things this way is all fine and good when you have well rounded kids that are going to get picked for other things; but there are kids that don't get picked for anything. Why can't this one little bit of embarrassment be removed? Its not like its going to change PE class.

I think this is the heartbreak of every parent. Most kids can hang their hats and their self esteem on something they do reasonably well. Some cannot. And those are the kids we need to try so hard to help because they will never develop any sort of self esteem if they see themselves as failures at everything.

 

[NotUrsula]

I really don't think that eliminating this ONE tradition is going to turn kids into self-indulgent wimps.

I'm all for criticism and competition, but I think that the judging should be done by those in charge -- yes, the way it is in the "real" working world. The guy who sits in the next cubicle doesn't get to decide what project you're not going to work on; your boss does. About the only career field that I can think of where open competition that comes along with verbal praise and verbal humiliation deliberately delivered in front of a group of peers is sales. I don't work in sales; never have, and never will. Getting trash-talked about every day in gym did nothing to prepare me for the working world. (Dodgeball DID leave me with two unset broken wrists, though. That's a lasting legacy.)

My feeling about the whole PE-pick tradition is that it is bad because it encourages children to publicly unleash their baser instincts, something that we normally tell them that they should not do. In the working world we normally don't get to choose who we work with; our supervisors do that. In my working world, grownups also learn to keep their personal opinions of same-level coworkers to themselves, and when we critique work within a group, we do it politely.

So yes, critique students' work, even let them critique in groups so long as everyone gets to voice an opinion. Let them compete, let them win and lose. Just don't regularly deliberately give them opportunities to publicly humiliate one another -- save that privilege for yourself.

 

[angelmav]

Apparently alot of the parents are special snowflakes themselves.

Unless they are broadcasting team picking on the local news or posting the results in the paper there is no public humiliation at work here. Sometimes it is not even anything to do with ability, but kids picking whom they like. If its a game day that's what their doing, playing a game, getting some exercise and burning off some energy.

Really, this is worth wasting a guidance couselors/teachers/administrators time over? How about spend that same amount of time playing ball with your kid if it that big a deal to them?

 

[kaytieeldr]

The thread is about being picked for a TEAM during CLASS. You know, one group plays another in an athletic game of some sort.

Right, I've got that now.

But your typical competitive team, be it sports or academic, goes through a once-a-year tryout period with all judging by (again, ideally qualified) adults.

The PE class teams, on the other hand, offer the potential for repeated, year-long, embarrassment to the students always chosen last.

As an academic teacher - not a college professor - if your classroom procedure was similar, in that students picked 'teams' almost every class, and you realized the same students were always getting chosen last, due, apparently, to their lack of ability in the field... what action would you take? Would your attitude be, "Oh well, everybody can't be good at everything, they'll find their respective niches, and in the meantime, being picked last or not at all will toughen them up?" Or would you think, "That student needs help, and as the teacher it's my responsibility to help her/him learn"?

If the latter, why is it not reasonable, then, if the PE teacher won't devise a more equitable method of determining teams, that the teacher instead help - i.e. teach - the struggling students to improve their abilities?

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

Right, I've got that now.

But your typical competitive team, be it sports or academic, goes through a once-a-year tryout period with all judging by (again, ideally qualified) adults.

The PE class teams, on the other hand, offer the potential for repeated, year-long, embarrassment to the students always chosen last.

As an academic teacher - not a college professor - if your classroom procedure was similar, in that students picked 'teams' almost every class, and you realized the same students were always getting chosen last, due, apparently, to their lack of ability in the field... what action would you take? Would your attitude be, "Oh well, everybody can't be good at everything, they'll find their respective niches, and in the meantime, being picked last or not at all will toughen them up?" Or would you think, "That student needs help, and as the teacher it's my responsibility to help her/him learn"?

If the latter, why is it not reasonable, then, if the PE teacher won't devise a more equitable method of determining teams, that the teacher instead help - i.e. teach - the struggling students to improve their abilities?

I don't have a problem with the teacher helping the struggling student in any class: academic or otherwise. I also wouldn't accept any taunting, arguing, or bullying from "captains" in the selection process. There's no need for it. Want to taunt and argue? Enjoy your calisthenic workout and run laps instead of playing floor hockey.

What I am saying is that if the mere fact of being selected last is that damaging to a child's psyche, there are way deeper issues that need to be addressed. Our kids need some adversity to help them grow.

 

[cheermom1]

Here is the thing it doesn;t matter how you do it someone is going to be last!

 

[sewer]

The good kids have always been picked first and they will continue to do so in life. It may seem unfair to the nonathletic kids but life isn't fair. When grades are given out the smarter kids will have the advantage. When it comes time to date the better looking kids will have an advantage. It all even out in the end.

I don't like the 'everything has to be equal' mentality that seems to be prevalent all of a sudden. It is like awarding all the teams a trophy or not keeping score. There are winners and losers in life, that is how it is. There are people who are better at other things then others, that is how it is.

I have no problem with the better kids getting picked first whether it is more athletic kids for the sports teams or smarter kids for the academic teams. In the real world everything isn't equal. You succeed or fail on your merits and it is never too early to start learning that lesson.

Well stated, thank you!

 

[mefordis]

See I wouldn't say that. I stunk up the gym something fierce so I deserved to be picked last.

When I got to high school I joined the track team and found out I was good-so good I set records.

So the statement bolded above isn't completely accurate.

Yeah, in Phys Ed I went from being last when we ran in Jr. High, to beating most of the guys in 9th grade. The gym teacher was surprised. See, I was always sucky in sports but then in 8th grade, I decided to get really good at running and ran a lot. Then I went out for track in H.S. Running is available to anyone and anyone can get good at it -- they just have to do it often.

 

[mefordis]

Here is the thing it doesn;t matter how you do it someone is going to be last!

And it's most often the kids the captains like the least, not necessarily the worst ones at the sport. After the first few picks, it comes down to who they like.

 

[shortbun]

My son says his PE teacher lets the kids who are picked last be the team leaders now and do the picking. Pretty smart if you ask me!

 

[mefordis]

My son says his PE teacher lets the kids who are picked last be the team leaders now and do the picking. Pretty smart if you ask me!

So the teacher goes through the whole picking process then allows those who are picked to pick AGAIN? I guess I don't understand.

 

[luvsJack]

Here is the thing it doesn;t matter how you do it someone is going to be last!

but if the teacher does it last is for a different reason

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So the teacher goes through the whole picking process then allows those who are picked to pick AGAIN? I guess I don't understand.

I'm guessing the next class/game when it is time to pick teams.

I think that is smart--and it will consistently rotate the team captains. Unless the kids catch on and then try to save Miss or Mr Popular for last.

As for picking teams--it is still done in many places throughout life.

I don't have a problem with it--but would not have a clue if the school system still does it or not here. I don't see why they shouldn't.

And I royally stank at most team sports--especially if it involved hitting a ball thrown at you or sending a ball into any target. It wasn't pretty.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I don't have a problem with the teacher helping the struggling student in any class: academic or otherwise. I also wouldn't accept any taunting, arguing, or bullying from "captains" in the selection process. There's no need for it. Want to taunt and argue? Enjoy your calisthenic workout and run laps instead of playing floor hockey.

But the math teacher is going to help the 'always picked last' student (although, generally, academic classes aren't run like PE classes; but if they were...) As for taunting and arguing? No, it's way more subtle than that - those loudly-whispered discussions: "Ugh, he stinks, he trips over his own feet, you gotta take him"; "No way, we were stuck with him last time, it's your turn!"; "Hey, why don't we ignore him and just start playing, maybe he'll just go sit over on the bench by himself and if the teacher says anything, we can say we forgot".

What I am saying is that if the mere fact of being selected last is that damaging to a child's psyche, there are way deeper issues that need to be addressed. Our kids need some adversity to help them grow.

Once? Twice? A half dozen times? Okay. Two or three times a week, for eight months? Over a period of years? Eh, not so fine.

 

[bouldertcr]

I just wanted to chime in to this discussion. I teach health & PE to students K-6th grade. I value what I do and more importantly love what I teach. My students look forward to PE class with excitement and energy. I do not just roll out the ball and let my students play while I am sitting in my office (although yes there are some who do in my profession).
I plan lessons for students to improve and develop skills, increase their conditioning level, learn cooperation, team work and sportsmanship and most importantly to have fun. I have seen countless times how students improve their skills by being taught properly, given constructive or positive feedback and time to practice in a physically and emotionally safe area. I don't have my students pick their teams. I divide students into teams a variety of different ways. For example, counting off is one way, grouping them by squad numbers (they are in squads for warm up exercises), picking up cards that have colors on and then teams are formed by all students having the card with the same color, I pick their teams, etc). I don't have students pick teams.

Also, my students learn fitness principals and concepts, lifelong physical activity skills, communication skills, self-control, motivation, work effort, sound nutritional principals, ways to reduce stress, etc. I focus on preparing students for the realities of life as they get older. When students become frustrated with themselves or with others, I teach them how to work through their frustration and how to deal with others in a positive, respectful manner. I teach students how to win with dignity and pride and to lose with grace and resiliency. Most importantly though, I allow them an opportunity to have fun!

Do I think Physical Education is important in schools? Oh yeah, I really do! Just ask your K-6th grade child. They would agree.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Here is the thing it doesn;t matter how you do it someone is going to be last!

But does it really have to be the SAME somebody(s) every time?

is available to anyone and anyone can get good at it

Respectfully, no, "anyone" can't.