WDW Should Not Open in July. Discuss.

[RamblingMad]

Plus 91 "non residents"

So they’re back to almost doubling every two weeks.

 

[mckennarose]

July 2nd: "The state emergency operations center said it’s taking about six days to return test results. Pino said anything over five days makes the results irrelevant." So are they or aren't they bothering to trace? If they're not, we don't know what caused the spike - Universal, NASA launch, or ?

Take it from someone who lived in a hot zone in the beginning.... you get to a point where you realize that with rising cases, anyone anywhere near you has the potential to have the virus and spread it to you. Our city in particular had 1 out of 25 people having the virus at one point. It definitely changes the way you look at everything and everyone around you at any given time. You don't wait for instruction from the "powers that be" or point out who is doing what wrong, you take the initiative and do what you can to protect yourself and your family.

We had a massive delay in testing and a severe lack of tests up here in March and April to the point of our overwhelmed hospital system would not test people with symptoms unless they 1. were over 65 with symptoms, or 2. had a pre existing medical condition with symptoms. Everyone else with symptoms was not able to get tests and only sent home or instructed to stay home and treat the symptoms and call 911 if they got short of breath. I know several people who we *think* had it but couldn't get a test. The actual number of positives didn't matter anymore, what mattered was the wide spread and what that meant to us personally. I do believe and have seen the majority of cases do turn out ok, but there are some that don't and that's not a chance I'm willing to take to risk exposure.

I think it's safe to assume that any gathering, park and restaurant opening, protests, NASA launch... anything.... has the potential to spread it. That picture of the CM's in front of 7DMT is exactly what will happen anywhere that is open until people take their own personal responsibility to 1. recognize that they can catch it, 2. take the precautions to NOT catch it and 3. not spread it

I am a believer in viral load just from what I've seen up here personally. My hubby for example, was around a positive coworker (didn't know it at the time) and he wore a mask (when it wasn't mandatory, the coworker didn't wear one) and stayed a distance from her. He didn't get it, but the lady she drove into work with on a 10 minute car ride did get it. We can't assume that just because people wear masks that they'll be fine. Not all masks are created equal and not all fit properly. Not to mention those who wear them below their nose or on their chin. If you're bunched up in a line like those CM's or people sitting at a protest, or an outdoor baseball game or concert for more than a few minutes.... you have the potential to get it. IMO, Big viral load sitting or standing stationary for more than a few minutes = potential of passing it to someone. Big viral load in walking past someone for 2 seconds = probably not passing it to someone.

She said it's because: (1) of the local shut down of medical facilities for awhile to all but emergency treatment & COVID-19 cases; and (2) people since then afraid to go for regular PCP check ups and cancer screenings.

For us, they condensed specialist offices for a while but never closed them entirely. And I can vouch for people being afraid to go to the ER or Urgent care for an emergency that wasn't related to covid. But regular pcp check ups did still happen here. A lot were phone visits, like mine in April. People are still going to the doctors up here but everything is very different in regard to protocol.

At some point people also have to taken personal action. Disney cant be responsible for 100% of peoples behaviors. Everyone bunched up liked that are absolute fools. I would have been standing back by the Pooh gift shop waiting for social distancing to occur.

It's always been about personal responsibility. Disney, the national, state or local government, the hospitals, restaurants, bars, stores, etc...... can all have their ideas and opinions on if something is "safe" or not, protocol for masks and distance, but it's up to each of us to take personal responsibility. People don't, or wait for the "powers that be" to instruct them, then complain about it when they do, or complain if they don't. If you know to stand 6 feet from someone, then do it. If you know you should wear a mask to protect yourself and others, then do it. If you know you should avoid large gatherings, then do it. If you know to wash your hands frequently, then do it.

People also don't have the same experience in other areas of the country.... yet. I remember posting on DIS in April about our city having to impose a daily curfew, limits on people in cars, gatherings of more than 4 non family members, etc. and people thought it was crazy. I thought they were crazy because they couldn't understand why we did the things we did. Simple answer.... they didn't experience it the same.

Part of the reasons why our city had to put those ordinances in place was because people didn't take their responsibility; they still gathered together in large groups, still traveled daily to NYC- a hot zone, and back, still tried to shop in Walmart for non-essential things, when non-essential businesses were closed. (our walmart had to block aisles in the store with pallets except for grocery and pharmacy and people actually climbed over them) We were also in the first wave of cases beginning in March so there were a lot of unknowns then on spread, but there's so much information out now that you would have to live under a rock to not see what you should or shouldn't do.

Now people here understand more and people are walking around with masks everywhere, even just walking down the street, because they are trying to keep themselves safe. Even though we finally went green two weeks ago, we're still taking precautions. And I'm glad that our governor has required people coming into our state from a hot state to quarantine for 14 days. But look on the threads here about it and you'll see people looking for ways around the mandatory 14 day quarantine, either going into Fl or coming from Fl. Personal responsibility?

The bottom line for me is that based on what I've seen and experienced here firsthand, I don't think it's safe to visit Disney or anywhere else with rising cases or to gather in large groups anywhere. I know people won't take their responsibility seriously and still gather in large groups, wear masks on their chin, go places while sick, etc. So I will take my personal responsibility to do what's right for me and my family in regard to staying safe and healthy during this pandemic. I don't care to debate people wearing masks, not wearing masks, closing things, not closing things, arguing about everything everyone else does. It boils down to your responsibility and choice as an individual.

We have a friend that was in the middle of chemo, and radiation for cancer...when this started, all of sudden it was considered non-essential for her treatments...She was in between rounds when this started, so she has not been able to have any treatment since, I think the middle to end of February... she went back to her doctor last week... and unfortunately it has spread...

I'm sorry that happened. We didn't have the same experience up here, and one of our friends is on dialysis 3 times a week and had no issues getting treatment. A lot of specialist offices condensed for a time, but are now reopening. I haven't heard of anyone having to go without treatment.

 

[musika]

Here is the case Jamie mentioned, I believe.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/n...er-rules-after-student-tests-positive-470037/
The amount of vitriol and vigilantism towards Americans on reddit by Canadians is to me quite shocking. (And the same holds true for Australians talking about Asian countries) It goes way beyond what I see here ie not just smug, but really ugly. It seems like this has allowed people to become racist towards Asians, and ugly towards Americans.

There have been a number of reports of 'Americans' crossing the border for leisure, but people forget that Canada is open to many, including citizens, dual citizens, foreign students, essential travel, family members, etc. And many of those 'foreign' license plates are people working in the US (like in CA for example in the tech industry) who chose to return to Canada to ride out the pandemic and work remotely. The recent events in HK may result in many more going to Canada legitimately in the near future. Many of us around the world are 'commuters' for work and cross borders regularly with legitimate reason.

I think that the hostility towards groups of citizens is another sad side outcome of the pandemic, and has been legitimized in the name of 'safety'.

I hope what I have to say wasn't viewed as containing vitriol or hostility. This case is actually in my province. This person chose to not quarantine, and as a result there were 3 new cases in PEI for the first time in months. One of those infected worked at a nursing home, which led to additional testing for ALL residents and staff of that home to ensure no infection. To me, that's the reason to keep our borders more closed - because people can't follow the freaking rules. It wouldn't matter to me if he was from another country, principle still applies.

I am sad for those of you who reported cancer treatments halting. It's my understanding that oncology treatment continued here, but that was only possible because we were able to keep our own Covid case load low.

 

[RamblingMad]

Let’s stop talking about personal responsibility. This is a virus, where it’s easier to protect yourself from giving the virus to others than it is to protect yourself. Unless something has changed, the only ways I know to protect myself is to stay home, maintain social distancing, and wearing a N95 mask, which I can’t obtain right now. I can wear a mask to protect others. But I have little faith in others wearing a mask to protect me.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

They can remain close for as long as they want. It boils down to their perception of how we’re dealing with COVID, which isn’t all that good.

The border can’t stay closed as long as they want, if that want is long term. The economic consequences of that will be further reaching and longer lasting than this virus.

And before you quote me with something about how I’m putting money above lives, I’m not. Be very clear about that. And be very clear that I have said multiple times it is the right answer for now. But also understand you cannot ignore the economic consequences of it either and doing so means you aren’t looking at the full picture.

 

[sam_gordon]

This isn’t my thought too. Most TV news field reporters are wearing them when they are talking. But I’ve noticed that speech givers seem to feel they need to take them off. Makes no sense to me. Just keep the mask on.

You don't know what the situation is off camera for those reporters. Are they in an area where someone can easily approach them and violate their social distance space? Are they wearing the masks just because of the "optics".

I would say most speech givers are at least 10' (probably closer to 20 or more) from anyone in front of them. Masks are superfluous at that point.

 

[Jrb1979]

The border can’t stay closed as long as they want, if that want is long term. The economic consequences of that will be further reaching and longer lasting than this virus.

And before you quote me with something about how I’m putting money above lives, I’m not. Be very clear about that. And be very clear that I have said multiple times it is the right answer for now. But also understand you cannot ignore the economic consequences of it either and doing so means you aren’t looking at the full picture.

I agree long term its not good. What I see happening is the border opens by the end of the year but the mandatory quarantine rules will still be in place.

 

[RamblingMad]

The border can’t stay closed as long as they want, if that want is long term. The economic consequences of that will be further reaching and longer lasting than this virus.

And before you quote me with something about how I’m putting money above lives, I’m not. Be very clear about that. And be very clear that I have said multiple times it is the right answer for now. But also understand you cannot ignore the economic consequences of it either and doing so means you aren’t looking at the full picture.

Canada has a pretty good social safety net compared to the US. And trade is still being conducted between Canada and other countries. The border being closed is really only having an economic effect on travel and leisure.

 

[bavaria]

I hope what I have to say wasn't viewed as containing vitriol or hostility. This case is actually in my province. This person chose to not quarantine, and as a result there were 3 new cases in PEI for the first time in months. One of those infected worked at a nursing home, which led to additional testing for ALL residents and staff of that home to ensure no infection. To me, that's the reason to keep our borders more closed - because people can't follow the freaking rules. It wouldn't matter to me if he was from another country, principle still applies.

I am sad for those of you who reported cancer treatments halting. It's my understanding that oncology treatment continued here, but that was only possible because we were able to keep our own Covid case load low.

I don't see that as vitriolic or hostile. Go to several subreddits and you will see the really open anger. I understand being angry, and scared, but it is like suddenly it is fine to be 'anti-American' and release the years of pent up hostility. There tends to be a focus on 'anti-Asian' hostility right now (which became a bit silly already back in February as the virus spread, and looking at where countries have been successful. The same holds true for the Australian posts I have read - there is a high level of anti-foreigner (mostly anti-Asian, anti-poor country) hostility.

In the example I quoted, it was first reported that the person was an American, and there was a lot of hate directed at them. Now the media has corrected it to say I believe that he was a Canadian who came from the US and failed to quarantine as is mandatory. But the perception was already created that another 'ugly American' came to spread disease in a place with very low cases.

I think that when discussing cancer 'treatment', the one area overlooked is surgery. That has been stopped or delayed in many, many countries. In some cases of cancer, surgery is the intervention and sometimes luckily the only one required. This absolutely happened in Canada too.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/whitecoat/...llateral-damage-because-of-covid-19-1.5541895
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/cancer-covid19-1.5512599https://globalnews.ca/news/6750377/coronavirus-canada-essential-health-care/
I am torn on this as it sounds like in parts of the US they would benefit to stop surgeries if they have not done so (and there is so much conflicting information) But I also don't want people to have delays as I know what that can mean.

Again, no easy answer...

 

[bavaria]

Canada has a pretty good social safety net compared to the US. And trade is still being conducted between Canada and other countries. The border being closed is really only having an economic effect on travel and leisure.

Canada has a high percentage of revenue (and therefore taxes) coming from tourism. Now they have a few issues
- huge drop in external tourism
- job loss in the sector until well into 2021 means those people are not going to be spending (includes airline employees, hotel employees, restaurant employees, tourism based business employees, etc)
- domestic tourism cannot make up the shortfalls, nor will domestic tourists be willing to pay the prices that international tourists pay in some of the city centres for hotel rooms and attractions
- minimal income from high value business travel

So it is not 'just' travel and leisure that is being impacted. In many countries, like Canada, the travel sector is a significant part of the economy. I heard from a friend yesterday in Canada that she expects her company to make more cuts next week, and that is one of the largest globally in her tourism-related industry. I know other people who didn't even bother to open for the 2020 season as it ends in September, and there is no travel from their key markets so no point to open (one is a tourist related company which targets high value Dutch travel)

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Canada has a pretty good social safety net compared to the US. And trade is still being conducted between Canada and other countries. The border being closed is really only having an economic effect on travel and leisure.

Right now. @bavaria has already explained the issues with reciprocity. Unfortunately politics will begin to play a part in it, if it goes on too long.

 

[mckennarose]

Let’s stop talking about personal responsibility. This is a virus, where it’s easier to protect yourself from giving the virus to others than it is to protect yourself. Unless something has changed, the only ways I know to protect myself is to stay home, maintain social distancing, and wearing a N95 mask, which I can’t obtain right now. I can wear a mask to protect others. But I have little faith in others wearing a mask to protect me.

There are ways to protect yourself other than only staying home and wearing an 95 mask. Like not gathering in large groups in close proximity for more than a few minutes for starters. Not going into a known hot zone with rising cases for something non essential like a theme park. Not bunching up in lines like the picture if you do have to be or choose to be out. Not wearing your mask below your nose. It's not as cut and dry as only staying home and wearing an N95. All those are personal choices based on how you view them as your responsibility to yourself or others. If we're not responsible for our own choices and actions, then who is?

 

[Jrb1979]

Right now. @bavaria has already explained the issues with reciprocity. Unfortunately politics will begin to play a part in it, if it goes on too long.

Yes it will eventually become an issue. I don't know what the answer is right now. I hope by next year things will be closer to normal and we won't have to worry about this. People can fly into Canada just they have to quarantine for 14 days first.

 

[RamblingMad]

Right now. @bavaria has already explained the issues with reciprocity. Unfortunately politics will begin to play a part in it, if it goes on too long.

I’m not touching politics. It’s a deadly virus that exponentially spreads.

 

[RamblingMad]

There are ways to protect yourself other than only staying home and wearing an 95 mask. Like not gathering in large groups in close proximity for more than a few minutes for starters. Not going into a known hot zone with rising cases for something non essential like a theme park. Not bunching up in lines like the picture if you do have to be or choose to be out. Not wearing your mask below your nose. It's not as cut and dry as only staying home and wearing an N95. All those are personal choices based on how you view them as your responsibility to yourself or others. If we're not responsible for our own choices and actions, then who is?

If other people encroach your space in a line, there isn’t much you can do about it. If other people refuse to wear masks and gather, there is nothing you can do about it. To combat COVID people have to stop being selfish.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

I’m not touching politics. It’s a deadly virus that exponentially spreads.

You can ignore it all you want. The truth is it will play a part. It already has. I’m not saying it’s ok that it happens, just that we can’t pretend it hasn’t and won’t.

So back to your previous post, yes, Canada can keep their border closed forever if they want. As long as they’re prepared to become a self-sustaining nation. Do I think that’s going to happen? No. I think they’ll eventually open it up and take their chances and hopefully have something in place to deal with the rise in cases - that will come from both people coming there and their citizens traveling away and back. But it’s naive to pretend that they can just stay closed off forever.

It’s not just Canada though. It’s Australia & NZ. This plan works now. It is a good idea. But they need to be planning for when they have to open their borders back up. And they will have to do that.

 

[musika]

This is interesting:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/grenier-covid-canada-us-1.5640734
I mean, it's an opinion survey so take it for what you will, but I'm not alone in my fear that's for sure.

I'm really curious to see how the re-opening goes. I really do think that it's too soon especially given the current positives in Florida but 2 weeks from now will be the true picture of how it went if we start seeing spikes. I would be surprised if many folks are actually travelling very far for this vacation though. I *might* have considered attending if I was a local, but no way would I stake my $10K vacation on it.

 

[Searc]

Let's be clear ~ the Canada border is only closed to those who have no reason to be in Canada, ie tourists.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/h...poll/507-6781f4ca-1ecd-4773-b403-0126006a178e
From the article in the above link

Americans who are returning to the U.S. and Canadians who are returning to Canada are exempted from the border closure. Immediate family members of Canadians are also allowed entry into Canada, but must quarantine for 14 days.

And essential cross-border workers like healthcare professionals, airline crews and truck drivers are still permitted to cross. Truck drivers are critical as they move food and medical goods in both directions. Much of Canada’s food supply comes from or via the U.S.

 

[bavaria]

It’s not just Canada though. It’s Australia & NZ. This plan works now. It is a good idea. But they need to be planning for when they have to open their borders back up. And they will have to do that.

And countries like Thailand, which relies heavily on tourists, but still staying closed. The most successful I think will be Vietnam by all reports, They have a huge domestic tourism market, with international tourism only a small part of their overall revenues. (The only place where Americans could travel visa-free was Phu Quoc, so even if they do open to a few 'safe' places they won't miss that much in the short term)

All of this does tie back to the thread topic.

Opening local business is not that difficult a decision, but opening up businesses which encourage travel across (state or national) boundaries is more challenging. Now we see the US starting to implement state travel restrictions (like Canada had/has in place) and the impact that will have, even if WDW does open as scheduled.

If WDW stays closed, the transmission risk declines. If WDW opens, the economic impact on the employees and the state decreases. There is no model for this, except perhaps Universal Orlando, as all other major theme parks which opened on the scale of Disney are in places with low cases.

 

[bavaria]

Let's be clear ~ the Canada border is only closed to those who have no reason to be in Canada, ie tourists.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/h...poll/507-6781f4ca-1ecd-4773-b403-0126006a178e
From the article in the above link

Yes, that seems to be overlooked here. International students, citizens, dual citizens, immediate family, essential workers, foreign farm workers, etc are all flying/crossing daily. There are flights that have been going on around the world since March, and airlines have significantly ramped up routes/capacity for July and even more so for August. Nor are they flying empty.