Was this handled correctly?

[Hannathy]

I have had them require everyone to hold their own passes many times for years, they were doing this when my kids were very little, and my DD just started college yesterday. I have heard them announce this many times and make people hold them.

I think the biggest thing that started everything going down hill was you not staying with your DD while your DH and other child pre-boarded. If she was calmer to start with holding her pass wouldn't have been as big of a deal.

So I think both sides of the equation didn't handle things as well as they could have but it is over.

 

[MAYNARDS99]

Next time reserve the "Business Select" fare.

You would then be guaranteed priority boarding for each person, Group A, 1 through 15. This allows you to all board at the same time, and use the first class security line.

 

[clanmcculloch]

Thank you everybody!!! You've been extremely helpful. I do feel as though I now better understand the actual rules as well as the whole grey area around them or at least the grey in how the rules are applied. I do know exactly what I could have done differently and have learned from that if we're in this situation again. We only fly a few times a year so there's a lot I don't know. I've definitely learned a lot from all of you more experienced travellers.

I wasn't aware that the blue sleeve is just a formality. I wasn't sure if I had to inform the GA ahead of time of DD12's autism in order to be covered by disability rules. We never use it because we've always been fine with boarding in our regular boarding positions.

I do like the idea of a brief email to SWA because consistency in applying their policies would help not only us but I'm sure others as well. Doing things the same at every airport would REALLY help prevent a lot of confusion for many people and maybe could be taken into consideration for training purposes.

Thank you again!!

 

[pooch]

for a VERY civil and clear discussion of a problem and possible solutions. First one I think I've ever seen here!!!

 

[goofy4tink]

for a VERY civil and clear discussion of a problem and possible solutions. First one I think I've ever seen here!!!

Due in large part to the OP's not ranting and raving about how SW treated her badly and now should give her free flights for the next 10 years!!!
I think most people will post in a positive manner if the OP isn't being 'nutty'.
But, thanks everyone for being so nice. I love my Transportation posters.

 

[maxiesmom]

But how? The three of us stand there, Robert hands it GA takes and scans it, I hand it GA takes and scans it, Eamon hands it GA takes it and scans it, we all go down the ramp.

vs The three of us stand there, I hand three to them, they scan the top, scan the middle, scan the bottom. Made even faster b/c I usually fan them out so that they can beep beep beep super-fast, then we all go down.

My only guess is that way the GA didn't have to count heads to match the tickets. That is the only thing I can come up with. But they were very vocal about it.

That was my first time flying Air Tran, and it was like flying with strict parents. They were telling us to ake sure we each had our own boarding pass, and that it was out and available. Then once on the plane we were told to get to our seat, quickly store our luggage, and get seated. Move, move, move. March march march.

 

[SueM in MN]

No SW violated the FAA FARs in this case. Getting a blue card if a formality that SW has in place to help things move smoothly but as soon as you idnentified your child as having a disability and needing to prebopard they must accomidate your child at the gate.

Please call SW and ask to file a "Informational complaint", the disabilites trainers really appriciate this so they can improve their programs and target areas where compliance has been an issue.

bookwormde

Here is a link to the Disability Information page from the Aviation Consumer Protection site with links to different documents about rights of people with disabilities in air travel.

This is a link to the Aviation Consumer Protection page with information about filing complaints with the Department of Transportation.


You can file a formal complaint or an informal complaint.
This is the address listed by the Aviation Consumer site as the contact for Southwest for consumer complaints of any type:

SOUTHWEST AIRLINES

Mr. Jim Ruppel
VP, Customer Relations/Rapid Rewards
P.O. Box 36647
Dallas, TX 75235-1647
(214) 792-4223
www.southwest.com

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

OP, looks like you answered your own question. For the record, I have seen very few SWA gate agents behave that way. Technically the FARs were not violated as the boarding process (which includes preboarders) had begun before the disability was identified. Splitting hairs, perhaps, but have you ever tried to manage 137 people who all wanted to be first on board? Animals, I tell you... and those are the adults!!

 

[bookwormde]

If main boarding had started and it was not practical then no it would not be a violation, but since this was during the preboard it is. The only limitation to the accomadation is that it has to be practical.

I think SW would appriciate it if you contacted them directly rather than a formal FAA route.

bookwormde

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

The FARs do not distinguish between boarders and pre-boarders, nor do they direct a carrier as to the order they are to board pax who self-identify as needing assistance. I won't argue the point with you but those seeking accommodation are required to do so BEFORE the entire process has begun to reasonably be accommodated. Pax who self-identify and end up at the gate after the process has begun (whether a late connection or just plain late) are typically not accommodated until general boarding has ended. Many pax who self-identify forego their status and simply board along with the group designated on their boarding pass. Surely you can understand the gate agent who remains skeptical when a disability is claimed only after the entire party is not allowed to board first, rather than identified at the same time the first disability is. No violation occurred whatsoever.

If main boarding had started and it was not practical then no it would not be a violation, but since this was during the preboard it is. The only limitation to the accomadation is that it has to be practical.

I think SW would appriciate it if you contacted them directly rather than a formal FAA route.

bookwormde

 

[bookwormde]

Your correct no sense in arguing since everyone can read the FARs themselves.
Here is one of the discussion items from the regulation development documentation

"Passengers who want to ensure that they can pre-board should ask gate personnel for the opportunity. "
The general standard that is used is that if the "isle" is full then plaining/deplaning by those with disabilities is not practical.

While this quote is related to movement trough the airport the broader discussion clearly demonstrates intent that requiring any pre-notification would not be consistent with the regulations unless the airline is required to supply special supports like oxygen.
"Department does not believe that allowing carriers to require – as distinct from recommending – advance notice would be consistent with the nondiscrimination objectives of the ACAA"
Basically if you walk up before main boarding starts, then you must be accommodated, once the Isle is full then no it is not practical.

§382.93 Must carriers offer preboarding to passengers with a disability?
As a carrier, you must offer preboarding to passengers with a disability who self-identify at the gate as needing additional time or assistance to board, stow accessibility equipment, or be seated.

Here is a link to the actual FARs
http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/14cfr_part382.pdf

 

[MomofSixinSC]

OP, I think you handled the situationn well and I think it is sad that the GA took their bad day out on a kid.

This is off the main topic, but I just wondered if you had looked into the Feingold Program - http://www.feingold.org/

Very briefly stated, the Feingold Program removes petroleum from the diet.. Petroleum has been shown to cause neurological changes, more in some people than others. It leads to a loss of self control, similar to how alcohol lowers inhibitions.

Many parents who have tried The Feingold Program for their autistic children report their children have fewer and less severe meltdowns.

Please feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

SHORT AND SWEET!

This is a simple case of training program where the employees are told the rules (which today are important) but were not told to use their own common sense!

AKK

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

This is only your interpretation, not any part of the wording of the regulation. It's important to note that these were designed primarily for those who have serious mobility issues and have been abused by those without any real disability other than impatience and entitlement. Not speaking about the OP at all, but the fact regulations put in place to afford access to those with physical impairments are abused by the selfish.

Basically if you walk up before main boarding starts, then you must be accommodated, once the Isle is full then no it is not practical.

 

[bookwormde]

Yes there is always those who will abuse but is a long standing practice that this abuse should not limit the application of the remedy in discrimination law.

Part 382 does cover the same range and definitions of disabilities as ADA so it involves a lot more than physical needs.

I have consulted with Airline part 382 senior trainers on this general area so that is where I get my sense of the interpretations, beyond my experience with gaining interpretation to federal regulations on behalf of individuals with non physical disabilities.

bookwormde

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

And I get to deal with the application of the day to day practice. I often wonder how boarding first equates to accommodation for someone who claims emotional disabilities. Is it really discrimination if we allow them the same access as an abled person who purchased a ticket in the same fare category? I am thrilled to have preboarding for those with mobility issues. They need the time and the assistance without a line of impatient travelers behind them to get themselves situated. That is practical application.

Unfortunately, some people don't seem to want what the abled have, they want more. Truly. I can't begin to count the number of comments I get from people who complain their hidden impairment wasn't accommodated to their satisfaction (board first, better seat, beverage during the boarding process, you name it) and they refuse to fly again unless they are given some free passes. These are the people who give the truly disabled a bad name and prompt weary gate agents to shake their heads in disbelief. It gets old very quickly and it's never the ones with obvious impairments.

I am all for access as warranted.

Yes there is always those who will abuse but is a long standing practice that this abuse should not limit the application of the remedy in discrimination law.

Part 382 does cover the same range and definitions of disabilities as ADA so it involves a lot more than physical needs.

I have consulted with Airline part 382 senior trainers on this general area so that is where I get my sense of the interpretations, beyond my experience with gaining interpretation to federal regulations on behalf of individuals with non physical disabilities.

bookwormde

 

[SueM in MN]

And I get to deal with the application of the day to day practice. I often wonder how boarding first equates to accommodation for someone who claims emotional disabilities. Is it really discrimination if we allow them the same access as an abled person who purchased a ticket in the same fare category? I am thrilled to have preboarding for those with mobility issues. They need the time and the assistance without a line of impatient travelers behind them to get themselves situated. That is practical application.

Unfortunately, some people don't seem to want what the abled have, they want more. Truly. I can't begin to count the number of comments I get from people who complain their hidden impairment wasn't accommodated to their satisfaction (board first, better seat, beverage during the boarding process, you name it) and they refuse to fly again unless they are given some free passes. These are the people who give the truly disabled a bad name and prompt weary gate agents to shake their heads in disbelief. It gets old very quickly and it's never the ones with obvious impairments.

I am all for access as warranted.

I am not in any way saying that those with non-physical disabilities should not be accommodated, but I do want to thank you for understanding that preboarding guests with physical disabilities usually makes it easier for everyone. We need to bring DD's wheelchair right to the door of the plane. If our seats are very close to the front and if DD is having a good day, DH can walk/carry her into the plane while I get her wheelchair ready for transport. If our seats are farther back and/or she is not having a good day, we need to use an aisle chair for her.
It is much easier for everyone if we preboard because we do tie up the aisle - there is no way around it. We move as fast as we can, but it is harder for all of us if people are standing around watching us.

Even though we always ask for a note about needing an aisle chair at least 48 hours before our flight and make sure the gate agent knows we need to preboard, about 1/3 of the time they forget and start boarding other passengers before us. When that happens, boarding has to stop while we board with the aisle chair.

On one recent trip, they forgot to get an aisle chair and, as a result, said they would need to board us last, after every other passenger had boarded. We chose to carry DD on because boarding just before the doors shut would not have allowed enough time to get her settled and she would not have liked the whole plane watch her get wheeled on in the aisle chair.

 

[bookwormde]

Expirateshopgirl

"They need the time and the assistance without a line of impatient travelers behind them to get themselves situated. That is practical application."

This and having a little more time to get settled is exactly what people with social,sensory and cognitive disabilites need also. What is often expressed is the emotional dibilitaing impact, but the accomidation is for the core disability, which is where I think there might be some confusion.

Non physical disabilities are just a "real" as physical ones. It is all about equal access. I work mostly in the area of Autism, so for many families without pre-boarding the likelihood of being able to successfully make a trip (and keep anxieties and other manifestation to minimum and make your and everyone's on the airplanes' trip uneventful) would be greatly decreased or impossible. The last thing the flight crew wants is a person (child) who has had their ability to cope significantly diminished because they were not afforded their legal rights.

It is an area where your airline should have given you a lot a training, and if they have not I would call the Part 382 senior trainers and ask for a copy or an opportunity for a refresher seminar focused on non physical disabilities. If there is anything I can do to help you better understand please feel free to ask. It is a far more complex subject than physical disabilities so taking the extra effort to understand as fully as possible is appreciated.

And yes there are people who "cheat" both fainting physical and non physical disabilities, but it is actually quite rare. If you are regularly having people validly complain then there is a significant training issue.

bookwormde

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

First up; OP, a big for not causing a huge scene when in the situation you were in and having an open mind in this topic. As said before; refreshing.

Even though we always ask for a note about needing an aisle chair at least 48 hours before our flight and make sure the gate agent knows we need to preboard, about 1/3 of the time they forget and start boarding other passengers before us. When that happens, boarding has to stop while we board with the aisle chair.

Wow Sue, thankfully never ran into that one. I actually have a totally different 'score', so to say. Where ever I fly, but esp. in the US, everybody is SO on top of things when it comes to preboarding, aislechair and that stuff. Some other accomodations are another thing with certain idiotic airlines, but that's a different subject. I always seem to have everybody on the look out for me, starting at the check in. I do fly solo a lot, but also fly nonsolo regularly and same experience for those flights. As a result of that, I only recheck everything is in the system and known at time of check in and am done with it. Only thing I can think of that gives me the 100% rate is that I always use airport assistance for at least the boarding part. But than again, your family probably also does. Don't see a way to use the aislechair to board without assistance.

On one recent trip, they forgot to get an aisle chair and, as a result, said they would need to board us last, after every other passenger had boarded. We chose to carry DD on because boarding just before the doors shut would not have allowed enough time to get her settled and she would not have liked the whole plane watch her get wheeled on in the aisle chair.

Hmm, I'm different when it comes to such a situation. Sometimes it isn't possible to preboard. Whether it is because a connecting flight is in "later" and boarding of flight 2 already started, because the extra security check took a bit longer, something else needs to be taked over, so many things can happen. Forgetting is the same thing for me, it's not like the GA's conciously made the decission "let's forget the aislechair and cause a problem". It's human to error sometimes and when no ill intentions are the motivating factor; oh well. I've had it happen that I didn't preboard because of some things not going as planned/hoped. I personally have no problem with that. Only ground I stand is that no carry on will be gatechecked in case of 'lack of overhead space', refusing to hand them over my medical stuff. Never been a problem, space was made on the one time it was needed. If the flight gets delayed in it's take of because it takes me time to get settled in? I'm thick skinned; NOT my responsibility. I book my flights in such a way I leave hours for a connecting flight, am at the airport very early, have my needs known, so nothing more I can do. I mean, they've held up flights on "my behalf" because they started loading my powerchair unbelievably late. Not my responsibility, just like anybody else that just makes a tight connection after a delay that might case a delay on that second flight.

Don't want to be seen? I know there are enough folks out there with that sentiment, but honestly? I'm hard, I kinda have the sentiment that folks need to get over that. Preboarding can not always be accomodated, so be it. Aislechairs are a bit more uncomfortable and will draw some attention, but so will being in a wheelchair to begin with. So will preboarding. If folks look; not my problem. Can't blame them, I would've given it a second glare if I weren't using a wheelchair myself. Not something you see on every flight. Heck, I want to go to the bathroom if needed, so that'll be the show in and of itself. Some folks apparently feel so strongly about "hide it, do not want others to see" that they'ld rather crawl to the bathroom than use the aislechair/onboard chair. Now call me stupid and insensitive, but to me that is calling a lot more attention to yourself than using an aislechair.



Expirateshopgirl; I get where you are coming from. Might have to do with my background, but I'm not always 'getting' it either. I can understand having to do a whipe down in case of certain not too bad peanut allergies and preboarding can speed up boarding for all in such a situation. I can understand some kids with autism problems on certain issues needing a 100% being sure a parent is with them and on an airline as SW that does no seat assignment thus needing preboarding with a parent. But I have seen things in my day that did make me go "must be me, but I have no clue what would require a preboard for that". I realise very much I don't always know or see all and just go back to that combined with "not my business" and 'must be me', but sometimes it does intruege me. Never really given it much thinking until this topic, but now that I have I do find it rather noticable that when preboarding would be done on the flights I'm on, they devide those having preboarding. I always get on first and solo and/or with the person I'm travelling with. Not until I'm settled, they start preboarding the rest. Whether needs are acutely noticable (read; physical need that you can see from the way somebody moves) or not; always had the same thing happen. Hmm.

That and of course many a times frequent flyers being peed off that they don't get to preboard until I'm done. Always amusing.

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

I see. So taking advantage of a 2 minute accommodation out of an entire stressful travel day will make or break the travel experience for someone with a hidden impairment? Out of every other challenge this person or child must navigate where accommodation cannot be made throughout the course of the day? Truly? Perhaps waiting until after boarding is finished is better. Pax are seated and are no longer anxiously waiting behind you. It's not as if the cabin doors close the minute the last passenger is on board. Plenty of time. Different impairments, different accommodations. You seem to ignore the role in providing comfort and guidance that a parent or companion provides. Isn't that more important in avoiding a meltdown than boarding with one's assigned boarding group? And, for the record, people feign dsiability quite regularly. Typically adults with entitlement issues... unless that's now a 'disability'

Expirateshopgirl

"They need the time and the assistance without a line of impatient travelers behind them to get themselves situated. That is practical application."

This and having a little more time to get settled is exactly what people with social,sensory and cognitive disabilites need also. What is often expressed is the emotional dibilitaing impact, but the accomidation is for the core disability, which is where I think there might be some confusion.

Non physical disabilities are just a "real" as physical ones. It is all about equal access. I work mostly in the area of Autism, so for many families without pre-boarding the likelihood of being able to successfully make a trip (and keep anxieties and other manifestation to minimum and make your and everyone's on the airplanes' trip uneventful) would be greatly decreased or impossible. The last thing the flight crew wants is a person (child) who has had their ability to cope significantly diminished because they were not afforded their legal rights.

It is an area where your airline should have given you a lot a training, and if they have not I would call the Part 382 senior trainers and ask for a copy or an opportunity for a refresher seminar focused on non physical disabilities. If there is anything I can do to help you better understand please feel free to ask. It is a far more complex subject than physical disabilities so taking the extra effort to understand as fully as possible is appreciated.

And yes there are people who "cheat" both fainting physical and non physical disabilities, but it is actually quite rare. If you are regularly having people validly complain then there is a significant training issue.

bookwormde