Was DVC required to close its resorts?

[dismedvc]

I am sincerely asking this because I honestly do not know. Hotels seem to be classified as essential services, so they do not have to close.

Looking at Hilton Head hotel closures, I came across an article that said Disney "voluntarily" closed its Hilton Head Island resort. Other time shares (for example Marriott's Grande Ocean resort, where my in-laws own) are still open, although members checking in there will be subject to social distancing guidelines.

Does Disney voluntarily closing its Hilton Head resort impact the potential compensation for members who will lose points because Disney closed their Hilton Head resort even though it appears they were not required to do that?

Is that the same case in Florida? I know Disney had to close the parks, but did they have to close the hotels/DVC resorts?

Again I do not know, but would like to hear from members of this board who have expertise in this area.

P.S. For Dis board members who have read my previous posts, sorry for violating my two week "time out"

 

[cm8]

I am sincerely asking this because I honestly do not know. Hotels seem to be classified as essential services, so they do not have to close.

Looking at Hilton Head hotel closures, I came across an article that said Disney "voluntarily" closed its Hilton Head Island" resort. Other time shares (for example Marriott's Grand Ocean resort, where my in-laws own) are still open, although members checking in there will be subject to social distancing guidelines.

How does Disney's voluntarily closing its Hilton Head resort impact the potential compensation for members who will lose points because Disney closed their Hilton Head resort even though it appears they were not legally required to do that?

Is that the same case in Florida? I know Disney had to close the parks, but did they have to close the hotels/DVC resorts?

Again I do not know, but would like to hear from members of this board who have expertise in this area.

P.S. For Dis board members who have read my previous posts, sorry for violating my two week "time out"

This has been a hotly contested issue here in SC. Some hotels/ resorts have remained open but they were not allowed(supposed)to receive anyone who was not already “previously booked”. I’ve known several people who were able to book and check into resorts that were not supposed to allow new bookings. Rules are merely suggestions to some.....$$$$$

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I think we have to accept there is a difference between a resort and a hotel. That Motel 6 provides a crash pad and shower for an OTR trucker. The Poly is a resort, and not just that, but one where people were openly speculating (still are) that they would have entertainment just like during hurricanes and it would be so fun. A resort that draws from a multi state area, meaning specific travel vectors that don't apply in something like our OTR trucker example, or a couple driving over two states to move their elderly parents out of a care facility closing down.

We can get mired in "legal" and neglect what is right.

 

[Sandisw]

I’ve posted this a lot so I will summarize. The POS gives them emergency powers to close, once the state of emergency was declared by DeSantis in Florida, This came before the shut down, it didn’t order them to close, but did provide them with something that seems to have applied via contract,

My emails with DVC confirmed that this section, and elements of the Property Management agreement with Disney, which gives them power over the operations of the resort, played a role in making the decision to shut down DVC resorts legal.

 

[dismedvc]

I think we have to accept there is a difference between a resort and a hotel. That Motel 6 provides a crash pad and shower for an OTR trucker. The Poly is a resort, and not just that, but one where people were openly speculating (still are) that they would have entertainment just like during hurricanes and it would be so fun. A resort that draws from a multi state area, meaning specific travel vectors that don't apply in something like our OTR trucker example, or a couple driving over two states to move their elderly parents out of a care facility closing down.

We can get mired in "legal" and neglect what is right.

The Marriott Grande Ocean on Hilton Head Island is also a resort that draws from a multi state area.
The rooms can be occupied and you can walk the beach, but all activities (pools, hot tubs, tennis, food service, etc.) are shut down.

FYI: As far as cancelations, Marriot's policy is we are open all rules apply. Cancellations made less than 60 days from arrival can only be deposited into Interval International, and can only be used to book an exchange 60 days or less before arrival.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The Marriott Grande Ocean on Hilton Head Island is also a resort that draws from a multi state area.
The rooms can be occupied and you can walk the beach, but all activities (pools, hot tubs, tennis, food service, etc.) are shut down.

FYI: As far as cancelations, Marriot's policy is we are open all rules apply. Cancellations made less than 60 days from arrival can only be deposited into Interval International, and can only be used to book an exchange 60 days or less before arrival.

I repeat:
Just because something is legal does not make it right.

 

[tjm236]

While shutting down may have been allowed by the contract due to the state of emergency, DVCM also has the responsibility to do what's best for the members. You could argue that by shutting down, they're making things worse for all members in the future, especially when you consider the unborrowing (as I've posted on other threads, I think the long term impact of unborrowing is worse than the short term impact of not allowing unborrowing).

I'm not saying they should have stayed open. I just don't think it's clear if it was in the best interest of DVC members (purely from the points system and booking perspective).

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

DVC is in a no win situation either way. If the DVC resorts WERE open we'd be hearing complaints about people who didn't end up traveling and are outraged DVC wouldn't close during this. They'd be mad they couldn't un-borrow their points and send them back to the original use year. People who did travel would want a partial credit of points as no pools, restaurants, or other amenities would likely be open.

As to

DVCM also has the responsibility to do what's best for the members

I think people's health will always take precedence over any potential financial ramifications. I would have to believe any member(s) who decided to proceed with legal action against DVC/DISNEY for breach of fiduciary duty would have a tough time swaying most judges that erring on the side of caution in this situation was the wrong move. Now, how they officially handle things WHEN they reopen will be when I think the legal side of things will be examined more closely.

 

[dismedvc]

I repeat:
Just because something is legal does not make it right.

I never said or even implied I thought it was right.

I knew Disney was required to close the parks. I thought (obviously incorrectly) they were also required to close the resorts until the order from the Florida Governor was lifted.

Although no one directly answered the question I asked in the title of this thread and in bold in my initial post, the question was indirectly answered.

ETA: I chose poorly in the wording of the title of this thread. I have edited the title and removed the word legally. That word seemed to cause a lot of the reactions.

 

[Sandisw]

While shutting down may have been allowed by the contract due to the state of emergency, DVCM also has the responsibility to do what's best for the members. You could argue that by shutting down, they're making things worse for all members in the future, especially when you consider the unborrowing (as I've posted on other threads, I think the long term impact of unborrowing is worse than the short term impact of not allowing unborrowing).

I'm not saying they should have stayed open. I just don't think it's clear if it was in the best interest of DVC members (purely from the points system and booking perspective).

That section does say decisions are based to protect the health and safety of all people involved, including those legally entitled to be there...ie. Owners,

You are right in that we may not all agree that the shutting down and losing points was better than protecting the health and safety of not only owners, but those that work there.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I think when you talk fiduciary duty, you also have to keep in mind issues like work comp (CMs getting coronavirus due to staying open), general liability insurance (guest attempts to sue if they get virus during stay). It's matrix algebra, not a simple equation when you start dealing with actuarial issues.

 

[MickeyMouse3!]

Disney lawyers (some refer to them as "risk management") probably said shut them down so they don't have extra work when someone files a claim later. Call them a resort, hotel or motel, they are still bringing people together in close proximity to each other.

 

[Chuck S]

Another way to look at it. Suppose the resorts were open, when other resorts, like Universal resorts, are closed. Then someone gets the virus and sues Disney/DVC for being open. It goes to court, and maybe a jury, who thinks DIsney has deep pockets. Who do you think would pay for that type of lawsuit at a DVC resort. DIsney? Nope. DVC Management? Nope. Disney Vacation Development? Nope. The members, through dues increases, as we are legally the owners of the resort.

 

[karen4546]

Another way to look at it. Suppose the resorts were open, when other resorts, like Universal resorts, are closed. Then someone gets the virus and sues Disney/DVC for being open. It goes to court, and maybe a jury, who thinks DIsney has deep pockets. Who do you think would pay for that type of lawsuit at a DVC resort. DIsney? Nope. DVC Management? Nope. Disney Vacation Development? Nope. The members, through dues increases, as we are legally the owners of the resort.

How in the world could ANYONE definitely say that "Disney" gave them a virus? And where in the DVC contract does it say that litigation is the responsibility of the DVC owner? So, if someone jumped from Top of the World Lounge then that person's family members could file a lawsuit against DVC?

Please know that I am not being retaliatory or anything- I am just trying to understand how DVC dues could increase because of someone getting CV-19. We have 2 small direct purchase contracts at AKV 100+25 and an increase is minimal to us but there are some who have thousands of points.

As to the OP, I never really thought about how it was determined that DVC closed due to CV-19. But, if they did not have to close due per the government order then they clearly should make accommodation for those who had banked 2018 points for their resort stay that they could not use. I have a resort stay booked for May 24-29. There is a small chance it could happen and I am holding out hope.

 

[Chuck S]

People can sue for anything. If they say DVC/Disney was following unsafe practices by being open, and not following CDC recommendations (even if it were technically legal for them to be open), some lawyer would take the lawsuit. ANd in civil litigation, it only has to be more likely than not by a preponderance of evidence, not anywhere near beyond a reasonable doubt. DVC Resorts are, legally, owned by DVC Owners, and managed by contract by Disney Resorts. I am a landlord, I have Century 21 as a rental agent. They collect the rent, take a percentage, and deposit the remainder it into my account. If there is a problem with the property, like found to be dangerous, repairs not done, and so forth...it is legally MY responsibility, not Century 21s. The same with DVC, if DVC management gets sued, those costs are passed to the owners through dues and special assessments, just like if a Resort is deemed salvageable and rebuildable after a hurricane, and insurance doesn't cover the costs.

In other words, no one has to definitely say, or prove beyond a reasonable doubt, you caught the virus at Disney...it only as to be deemed more likely than not, and that DVC/DIsney was negligent in even some minor way.

 

[lovin'fl]

My DS is a front desk manager at a hotel in NC. It is an extended stay hotel so they remain open as it's more a residence for many folks. He is an essential employee so he has to stay at the hotel (live there) and work the front desk. There are 4 of them who are essential, living there and running the whole shebang. Not sure why I added this but it's interesting.

As far as HHI. I have seen on a FB page that the locals are not too happy with resort/rental guests still coming to the island. They had kept their COVID numbers down and wanted to keep it off the island yet folks were still coming on and off and could bring the virus with them. Hawaii has had the same feelings. I get it. As a HHI owner who had a May HHI trip booked, I am sad to not be going. But I get it. If I were a resident there I'd feel the same way.

So while they may not have been required to close...I get why they did. Just hope they don't stay closed too long. I have June WDW trip booked now. Used June and Aug UY points. Will lose 46 if that trip gets cancelled. Then will have another bunch to use my May 31, 2021 which could be tough to do with all the other folks needing to also use points from cancelled trips on top of regular demand. The longer they remain closed the more of a bumble mess they have.

 

[Sandisw]

How in the world could ANYONE definitely say that "Disney" gave them a virus? And where in the DVC contract does it say that litigation is the responsibility of the DVC owner? So, if someone jumped from Top of the World Lounge then that person's family members could file a lawsuit against DVC?

Please know that I am not being retaliatory or anything- I am just trying to understand how DVC dues could increase because of someone getting CV-19. We have 2 small direct purchase contracts at AKV 100+25 and an increase is minimal to us but there are some who have thousands of points.

As to the OP, I never really thought about how it was determined that DVC closed due to CV-19. But, if they did not have to close due per the government order then they clearly should make accommodation for those who had banked 2018 points for their resort stay that they could not use. I have a resort stay booked for May 24-29. There is a small chance it could happen and I am holding out hope.

Actually, the contract does say that neither DVD or TWDC are liable for injuries etc, on the property of the DVC resort.

That is not to say a lawsuit would not include them, but we, as owners, would be responsible for it, as well.

 

[lawboy2001]

Another way to look at it. Suppose the resorts were open, when other resorts, like Universal resorts, are closed. Then someone gets the virus and sues Disney/DVC for being open. It goes to court, and maybe a jury, who thinks DIsney has deep pockets. Who do you think would pay for that type of lawsuit at a DVC resort. DIsney? Nope. DVC Management? Nope. Disney Vacation Development? Nope. The members, through dues increases, as we are legally the owners of the resort.

This would be circumvented by requiring guests to sign a waiver, that there is a pandemic....rules are in place to minimize risk but Disney has no ability to enforce/police all actions by other guests etc.

People sue for stupid stuff all the time. I know of cases in which people sued governments after they got the West Nile virus for not doing enough mitigation. Umm...Nature gave you the virus, not the government.

Corporations have to risk manage that but I don't think the mere possibility of a law suit should lead to extreme decisions.

 

[lawboy2001]

People can sue for anything. If they say DVC/Disney was following unsafe practices by being open, and not following CDC recommendations (even if it were technically legal for them to be open), some lawyer would take the lawsuit. ANd in civil litigation, it only has to be more likely than not by a preponderance of evidence, not anywhere near beyond a reasonable doubt. DVC Resorts are, legally, owned by DVC Owners, and managed by contract by Disney Resorts. I am a landlord, I have Century 21 as a rental agent. They collect the rent, take a percentage, and deposit the remainder it into my account. If there is a problem with the property, like found to be dangerous, repairs not done, and so forth...it is legally MY responsibility, not Century 21s. The same with DVC, if DVC management gets sued, those costs are passed to the owners through dues and special assessments, just like if a Resort is deemed salvageable and rebuildable after a hurricane, and insurance doesn't cover the costs.

In other words, no one has to definitely say, or prove beyond a reasonable doubt, you caught the virus at Disney...it only as to be deemed more likely than not, and that DVC/DIsney was negligent in even some minor way.

Whatever the cost of such an unlikely lawsuit, it would not come close to the amount lost by owners by not being able to access any of the DVC property for....four weeks and counting.

 

[Sandisw]

Whatever the cost of such an unlikely lawsuit, it would not come close to the amount lost by owners by not being able to access any of the DVC property for....four weeks and counting.

The other aspect is that the property management agreement is with Disney, who provides the workers.

If Disney made the decision to close their resorts for the safety of their employees, it would be difficult for DVC resorts to remain open.