Walking “fix” implemented? Problems booking a high value Villa.

[mistysue]

To add, the hard to get rooms that show up on rental sites, have been booked by owners not using bots…we know that based on posts here.

So, I said ealrier, if bots are being used, they are not being used every day for all hard to get rooms, or, they have indeed been beat…

So what number do you think is fair?
Does it not matter until it's the room you want, or is there some point when you would care even though it's not affecting your room?

If 5-10% of a room type is taken by bots? 40%? Is it not a problem until it's 75%?
What line would it cross before you would care?

 

[CarolMN]

If you believe bots are grabbing up popular dates & villas for rentals, the easiest way to minimize that is to update the waitlist software so that waitlists are checked before cancellations are returned to inventory, and then make each change of lead guest a cancel & rebook.

MS could make exceptions to the above if the lead guest change was between owners or if an owner was staying in another villa at same time (to help with multi-family trips).

 

[Sandisw]

So what number do you think is fair?
Does it not matter until it's the room you want, or is there some point when you would care even though it's not affecting your room?

If 5-10% of a room type is taken by bots? 40%? Is it not a problem until it's 75%?
What line would it cross before you would care?

Honestly, I would care when I couldn’t book a room at my home resort at 11 months for any time in the year. As long as I can book something…even if it’s not the room size I want…then the system works.

Because we are talking home resort, that’s never going to happen because there are only so many points in the system and there is a 1:1 match against use,

That to me is the nature of FCFS. So far, in my 15 years and of monitoring DVC booking, there has never been a day where I would have been shut out of my home resort,

Now, I did have to be flexible with dates to get SV instead of PV, and sometimes have had to go to a larger room, but again, that’s how I view a point based system.

I recognize that there are certain times of the year that will always be hard, bots or not, and I accept that. It also doesn’t bother me that another owner rents because they spent money, just like I did, and pay dues, just like I do, so entitled to let whomever they want stay in their room,

Now, someone posted language that the use of bots may violate TWDC go.com terms and conditions..if that is the case, and it applies to DVC, then that makes them a violation and why Disney should be stepping in because it’s a company policy.

But, if that rule doesn’t apply to DVC, and there is nothing in the contract or home resort rules and regulations that expressly prohibits them, then I am okay with it because I think there are tons of things currently that can be done to give one owner a slight advantage over another when trying to get those hard to book, or any room for that matter.

However, if, something changes and it is put into the rules, then yes, DVc should enforce.

The problem is that sometimes what we think DVC should do to solve a problem may not be what they do…ie: any name change is a cancel and rebook…so I am always careful with what I wish for….the situation can get worse.

 

[Tatebeck]

I found the actual terms that were alluded to earlier. The Disney terms of use linked from the DVC homepage definitely say that bots/scripts cannot be used at all on their websites. Even if anyone feels the other DVC rules weren't clear enough. The link leads here directly from the DVC page (so it definitely applies to the DVC website). https://disneytermsofuse.com/

and it says

"B. Restrictions on Your Use of Disney’s Products. You agree that you will not nor permit another person to do any of the following without our express written permission, and that these restrictions are a condition to your license:

i. circumvent or disable any content protection system or digital rights management technology used in connection with the Disney Product;

ii. copy the Disney Product (except as expressly permitted by us);

iii. rebroadcast, transmit or perform the Disney Product;

iv. create derivative works of the Disney Product or any part thereof, except as and only to the extent that any foregoing restriction is prohibited by applicable law;

v. move, decompile, reverse-engineer, disassemble, or otherwise reduce to human-readable form the Disney Products and/or the video player(s), underlying technology, any digital rights management mechanism, device, or other content protection or access control measure incorporated into the video player(s);

vi. modify the Disney Products, including, but not limited to, by removing identification, copyright or other proprietary notices from the Disney Products, or by framing, mirroring, or utilizing similar techniques;

vii. access or use the Disney Products in a manner that suggests an association with our products, services or brands;

viii. use the Disney Products for any commercial or business-related use or build a business utilizing the Disney Products, or engage in any activity to enable third parties to engage in any of the foregoing activities, in each case whether or not for profit;

ix. bypass, modify, defeat, tamper with or circumvent any of the functions or protections of the Disney Products;

x. access, monitor, copy or extract the Disney Products using a robot, spider, script, or other automated means, including, for the avoidance of doubt, for the purposes of creating or developing any AI Tool, data mining or web scraping or otherwise compiling, building, creating or contributing to any collection of data, data set or database (other than for a public search engine’s use of spiders for creating search indices to the extent not disallowed by Disney, including through the applicable robots.txt files or NOINDEX or NOFOLLOW meta-tags);

xi. damage, disable, overburden or impair the Disney Products; or

xii. use the Disney Products in any unlawful manner, for any unlawful purpose, or in any manner inconsistent with this Agreement;"

 

[Sandisw]

I found the actual terms that were alluded to earlier. The Disney terms of use linked from the DVC homepage definitely say that bots/scripts cannot be used at all on their websites. Even if anyone feels the other DVC rules weren't clear enough. The link leads here directly from the DVC page (so it definitely applies to the DVC website). https://disneytermsofuse.com/

and it says

"B. Restrictions on Your Use of Disney’s Products. You agree that you will not nor permit another person to do any of the following without our express written permission, and that these restrictions are a condition to your license:

i. circumvent or disable any content protection system or digital rights management technology used in connection with the Disney Product;

ii. copy the Disney Product (except as expressly permitted by us);

iii. rebroadcast, transmit or perform the Disney Product;

iv. create derivative works of the Disney Product or any part thereof, except as and only to the extent that any foregoing restriction is prohibited by applicable law;

v. move, decompile, reverse-engineer, disassemble, or otherwise reduce to human-readable form the Disney Products and/or the video player(s), underlying technology, any digital rights management mechanism, device, or other content protection or access control measure incorporated into the video player(s);

vi. modify the Disney Products, including, but not limited to, by removing identification, copyright or other proprietary notices from the Disney Products, or by framing, mirroring, or utilizing similar techniques;

vii. access or use the Disney Products in a manner that suggests an association with our products, services or brands;

viii. use the Disney Products for any commercial or business-related use or build a business utilizing the Disney Products, or engage in any activity to enable third parties to engage in any of the foregoing activities, in each case whether or not for profit;

ix. bypass, modify, defeat, tamper with or circumvent any of the functions or protections of the Disney Products;

x. access, monitor, copy or extract the Disney Products using a robot, spider, script, or other automated means, including, for the avoidance of doubt, for the purposes of creating or developing any AI Tool, data mining or web scraping or otherwise compiling, building, creating or contributing to any collection of data, data set or database (other than for a public search engine’s use of spiders for creating search indices to the extent not disallowed by Disney, including through the applicable robots.txt files or NOINDEX or NOFOLLOW meta-tags);

xi. damage, disable, overburden or impair the Disney Products; or

xii. use the Disney Products in any unlawful manner, for any unlawful purpose, or in any manner inconsistent with this Agreement;"

Then that is the legal reason and proof one would need when contacting DVC to say that you believe they are being used within DVC and need to be investigated.

And, if you are contacting DVC, I’d also contact other people within Disney at the corporate level because it’s a term and condition for all their products.

 

[davidhr]

I think bots shouldn't be allowed. I don't think they're an issue now like many believe, but might be in the future.

But, that bolded part about "robots" is very specific about scrapping and data collection. Like the tools that were used to pull availability and publish it to a site.

 

[crvetter]

I found the actual terms that were alluded to earlier. The Disney terms of use linked from the DVC homepage definitely say that bots/scripts cannot be used at all on their websites. Even if anyone feels the other DVC rules weren't clear enough. The link leads here directly from the DVC page (so it definitely applies to the DVC website). https://disneytermsofuse.com/

and it says

"B. Restrictions on Your Use of Disney’s Products. You agree that you will not nor permit another person to do any of the following without our express written permission, and that these restrictions are a condition to your license:

i. circumvent or disable any content protection system or digital rights management technology used in connection with the Disney Product;

ii. copy the Disney Product (except as expressly permitted by us);

iii. rebroadcast, transmit or perform the Disney Product;

iv. create derivative works of the Disney Product or any part thereof, except as and only to the extent that any foregoing restriction is prohibited by applicable law;

v. move, decompile, reverse-engineer, disassemble, or otherwise reduce to human-readable form the Disney Products and/or the video player(s), underlying technology, any digital rights management mechanism, device, or other content protection or access control measure incorporated into the video player(s);

vi. modify the Disney Products, including, but not limited to, by removing identification, copyright or other proprietary notices from the Disney Products, or by framing, mirroring, or utilizing similar techniques;

vii. access or use the Disney Products in a manner that suggests an association with our products, services or brands;

viii. use the Disney Products for any commercial or business-related use or build a business utilizing the Disney Products, or engage in any activity to enable third parties to engage in any of the foregoing activities, in each case whether or not for profit;

ix. bypass, modify, defeat, tamper with or circumvent any of the functions or protections of the Disney Products;

x. access, monitor, copy or extract the Disney Products using a robot, spider, script, or other automated means, including, for the avoidance of doubt, for the purposes of creating or developing any AI Tool, data mining or web scraping or otherwise compiling, building, creating or contributing to any collection of data, data set or database (other than for a public search engine’s use of spiders for creating search indices to the extent not disallowed by Disney, including through the applicable robots.txt files or NOINDEX or NOFOLLOW meta-tags);

xi. damage, disable, overburden or impair the Disney Products; or

xii. use the Disney Products in any unlawful manner, for any unlawful purpose, or in any manner inconsistent with this Agreement;"

Thanks for digging that up. I knew it wasn’t allowed and found it before. And DVC has definitely used this on some members that I know of so far. So they aren’t sleeping on it 100%. Also Mousedinning.com was essentially nerfed by Disney too. So again they do things, and MouseDinning.com really didn’t harm them monetarily in any way.

It’s actually why I would never use a service like StandbySkipper.com because they book via a bot. And it’s a matter of time before they start banning people.

Edit: Bullet XI would be applicable too. That why things like MouseDinning.com was nerfed because the constant scrapping burdens the system. So that could be used as an argument that bots (which if used, but non convinced they are) would certainly be searching continuously and booking as soon as things pop up. It’s why DVC needs to automate the waitlist matching better.

 

[Tatebeck]

Thanks for digging that up. I knew it wasn’t allowed and found it before. And DVC has definitely used this on some members that I know of so far. So they aren’t sleeping on it 100%. Also Mousedinning.com was essentially nerfed by Disney too. So again they do things, and MouseDinning.com really didn’t harm them monetarily in any way.

It’s actually why I would never use a service like StandbySkipper.com because they book via a bot. And it’s a matter of time before they start banning people.

Edit: Bullet XI would be applicable too. That why things like MouseDinning.com was nerfed because the constant scrapping burdens the system. So that could be used as an argument that bots (which if used, but non convinced they are) would certainly be searching continuously and booking as soon as things pop up. It’s why DVC needs to automate the waitlist matching better.

Yeah as soon as I heard someone mention standby skipper, my first thought was "I wonder how long until it's banned" lol

Thanks for the heads up that it was in the multi-website/software terms! I knew there was no way it was allowed but I was looking at the DVC specific stuff which was originally from before bots really existed. Even from those I think it wouldn't be allowed, but now it makes sense that they would 100% specifically ban it in the newer terms and conditions from their software and websites that were made once computers and websites had advanced enough to use bots and scripts

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

viii. use the Disney Products for any commercial or business-related use or build a business utilizing the Disney Products, or engage in any activity to enable third parties to engage in any of the foregoing activities, in each case whether or not for profit;

The most interesting term here (to me) is viii (quoted above)— it expressly prohibits using the DVC website for “business-related use” OR helping commercial brokers with their business related use. Disney could ask us all to confirm we aren’t making a reservation for profit each time we logon to book and direct people to book by phone if it isn’t being used by a member (or non-paying guest), and/or then cancel any guaranteed reservations that pop up on a 3rd party broker site.

 

[muppets3d]

To be fair, if you’re there trying to book at 8:00AM without a bot, what makes you believe there aren’t dozens of owners doing the same without bots?

Not saying bots aren’t a problem, but that logic just says “because I didn’t have luck, it means the others are cheating”.

Do you own at AKL? Try booking a value studio one morning and tell me if you think a human could have booked it that quickly.

 

[Sandisw]

The most interesting term here (to me) is viii (quoted above)— it expressly prohibits using the DVC website for “business-related use” OR helping commercial brokers with their business related use. Disney could ask us all to confirm we aren’t making a reservation for profit each time we logon to book and direct people to book by phone if it isn’t being used by a member (or non-paying guest), and/or then cancel any guaranteed reservations that pop up on a 3rd party broker site.

I should have answers soon if DVC prohibits an owner to use brokers.

If we are allowed, it’s possible that this isn’t a violation of the use of Disney because we are renting something we own, even though it is associated with DVC?

Every rental is for profit, isn’t it?

 

[Sandisw]

Do you own at AKL? Try booking a value studio one morning and tell me if you think a human could have booked it that quickly.

I don’t own, but that happens to a lot of rooms on popular days.

When you have only 10 rooms, and we know people not using bots are getting them, then humans are definitely able to secure one.

 

[Noodlez]

Do you own at AKL? Try booking a value studio one morning and tell me if you think a human could have booked it that quickly.

I recently bought an AKV contract that had a few banked points I wasn't going to be able to use and wanted to rent. I know that value rooms tend to go for the most per point so I looked for any available in the 7-11 month window and was surprised at how many there were, including 2 or 3 days together. I'm sure if I had put my booking on a rental site people would assume that I was either booking using a bot, part of a large rental enterprise, or walking at 11 months. In reality, I was just seeing what would sell easily, which I'm sure most other owners are doing too!

It would be very hard to find exactly how many humans are booking them at 11 months, because for every one person that says they've managed it there will be thousands saying it's impossible. That's not due to bots, that's just how few value rooms there actually are compared to how many of us would like one! If we were able to poll the entire AKV membership we may get a true idea of whether there are any bots actually getting the rooms, but without being able to do this it will always appear value rooms can't be booked at 11 months because this is true for the vast majority of people.

I found the original post/discussion on this thread very interesting as it does seem that something unusual is going on at 8:00 am, but I don't think this is the reason I won't get a value studio at 11 months!

(Edited to add: My recent contract purchase was a few months ago! I am not discussing current availability for value rooms)

 

[davidhr]

Do you own at AKL? Try booking a value studio one morning and tell me if you think a human could have booked it that quickly.

Maybe I’m a robot and I’m not aware of it!

 

[JackosinDIS]

Maybe I’m a robot and I’m not aware of it!

Can you get through a Captcha? If not you are definitely a robot.

 

[Chuck S]

Can you get through a Captcha? If not you are definitely a robot.

Uh Oh!

 

[davidhr]

Can you get through a Captcha? If not you are definitely a robot.

Now that you mention it. I sometimes struggle with the old ones with the letters if they’re overlapping

 

[Noodlez]

Now that you mention it. I sometimes struggle with the old ones with the letters if they’re overlapping

I can't do the ones with pictures! I spend far too long debating if a small tip of a handle bar is really considered part of a motorbike or if the blurry stripe in the background could be a staircase. Research has shown that bots are faster and more accurate at them anyway. For distorted text, humans are accurate roughly 50-84% of the time and take 9-15 seconds, but bots can get over 99% accuracy in less than a second. (from https://uk.pcmag.com/first-looks/14...t-solving-captchas-than-humans-research-shows)

 

[Tatebeck]

Everyone really needs to stop using that type if they have trained the bots so well on them at this point. Change to a different type, maybe develop new ones, and keep testing them to make sure they stay ahead. Otherwise... why have them?

 

[davidhr]

I can't do the ones with pictures! I spend far too long debating if a small tip of a handle bar is really considered part of a motorbike or if the blurry stripe in the background could be a staircase. Research has shown that bots are faster and more accurate at them anyway. For distorted text, humans are accurate roughly 50-84% of the time and take 9-15 seconds, but bots can get over 99% accuracy in less than a second. (from https://uk.pcmag.com/first-looks/14...t-solving-captchas-than-humans-research-shows)

So… a captcha would actually help bots lol