VGF2 or RIV direct

[sethschroeder]

I’m sorry, maybe I don’t understand your points, but I never mentioned anything about AKV Value or Club level. All I’m saying is that new VGF2 buyers will be told that one main advantage to buying direct is the ability to book at new Disney resorts, the only one currently being Riviera, at 7 months. My experience is that it’s almost impossible to do. I’ve been successful, however, booking other Epcot resorts at 7 months, but that doesn’t apply to my post.

Sorry you replied to my response which was about the 11 month window.

No clue about 7 months and personally don't care too much since I own at Riviera and BWV. Likely will be harder just like all Epcot Resorts in general vs MK resorts.

It's about future resorts over 40-50 years as well not Riviera only like 13 months open in at this point (not counting time closed).

2042 is the big date.

 

[Littlelulu01]

Ummm no

It's a whole resort not some small subsection.

In addition the resort is extremely well balanced for room selection types.

Plus slightly on high side in points will have some looking to jump to a cheaper resort at 7 months.

It's going to take 20-30 years for likely just 20% of the points to be locked in at Riviera.

Good to know. I could not get my desired room at 11 months. waitlisted first week of December at 8:00 am 11 months to the day - a standard view studio. It has yet to fill. I purchased a standard studio fixed week knowing the categories are not well balanced. I’ll get my fixed week starting in 2023.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Sorry you replied to my response which was about the 11 month window.

No clue about 7 months and personally don't care too much since I own at Riviera and BWV. Likely will be harder just like all Epcot Resorts in general vs MK resorts.

It's about future resorts over 40-50 years as well not Riviera only like 13 months open in at this point (not counting time closed).

2042 is the big date.

Yes, 2042 is the big date. But two points. 1) Since the Riviera is the only new DVC2 resort VGF2 owners can take advantage of booking at the 7 month window for at least 3-5 years, I think the fact that it’s impossible to book is an issue. 2) Its not just that all the Epcot resorts are busy. Of course they are, but I’ve been able to book them at 7 months. Never Riviera.

 

[sethschroeder]

Of course they are, but I’ve been able to book them at 7 months. Never Riviera.

Comes down to it being a brand new resort and basically still its "first year" because its actual first year was lost to COVID19 and shutdowns.

I would also be interested if you got lucky or not when booking. I wouldn't expect much variation between BWV/RIV but I would expect BCV to remain the hardest to get out of the 3 long term once we get past this first couple years of RIV opening.

1) Since the Riviera is the only new DVC2 resort VGF2 owners can take advantage of booking at the 7 month window for at least 3-5 years, I think the fact that it’s impossible to book is an issue.

DLT is opening in 2023 which is a year after VGF will be opening and I would expect that to be locked down as well. It will be another tough one but again you don't buy direct points based on the next 5 years you are buying it based on AP savings and long term access to all future resorts over a 40-50 year contract.

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, 2042 is the big date. But two points. 1) Since the Riviera is the only new DVC2 resort VGF2 owners can take advantage of booking at the 7 month window for at least 3-5 years, I think the fact that it’s impossible to book is an issue. 2) Its not just that all the Epcot resorts are busy. Of course they are, but I’ve been able to book them at 7 months. Never Riviera.

Even though I own, I have been lucky so are to get RIV during the winter months at 7 months using my SSR points, canceling what I had booked during home resort, and was able to bank the points. It took stalking, and wait listing but I did get both SV and PV studios. I was also able to get 1 bedrooms for June and July this year using my SSR points for a few nights each trip as well.

So, it is possible, just not easy.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I've seen RIV and would have been able to book it many times at various times of the year including now that things have gotten tighter in booking. Most usually PV, I think I've only seen standard view once but waitlists do work. It's not impossible by any means to book a room there. Easiest of course is 1 & 2BR's but I have even seen a Tower room and assume that was someone just switching somewhere else.

They system is still out of whack and I don't think there's anyway to declare it impossible to get and we're a couple of years before settling into a better idea of what it will be like. However, I don't see any reason to believe it will be different than anywhere else and non Riviera owners will book be able to book it at 7 months at times. Much like BWV with pool/garden view it will be Preferred view and larger villas that are much easier.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Even though I own, I have been lucky so are to get RIV during the winter months at 7 months using my SSR points, canceling what I had booked during home resort, and was able to bank the points. It took stalking, and wait listing but I did get both SV and PV studios. I was also able to get 1 bedrooms for June and July this year using my SSR points for a few nights each trip as well.

So, it is possible, just not easy.

I guess its possible for a night or two here and there at the Riviera, but I'm thinking more in the area of a one week stay. Not sure thats even possible. But maybe when things settle down in a year or two!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I guess its possible for a night or two here and there at the Riviera, but I'm thinking more in the area of a one week stay. Not sure thats even possible. But maybe when things settle down in a year or two!

Nope. A week. If it's just a day or two most definitely.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Nope. A week. If it's just a day or two most definitely.

Nope. A week. If it's just a day or two most definitely.

You know, one other deciding factor between VGF2 and Riviera Direct which no one has yet brought up is the dining. We love both resorts, but we're not wild about the Riviera dining choices. For us, Topolino's was over priced and so-so (maybe we got them on a bad mid pandemic night last Sept), and the quick service Primo Piatto not to our liking either. We did love Le Petit Cafe, but thats not a place to have a full meal. We wound up walking down to Caribbean Beach for their quick service, which was marginally better, or taking the bus to Disney Springs.

VGF is brimming with many more choices and far better dining, in my opinion. And I love that new walkway to MK! Skyliner, of course is great, but I think its a bit of a stretch to call Riviera an Epcot Resort. Its more like a Caribbean Beach resort with nothing really around it, with relatively easy accessibility to Epcot by a fun ride on the Skyliner. That said, the rooms are beautiful!

 

[havoc315]

You've played this "I'm an attorney" card several times now and I don't know what sort of law you practice; you may be an amazeballs lawyer in your field; but you seem to struggle at reading/take gross liberties at interpreting the POS

Actually... you're taking gross liberties with my past statements, twisting them out of context.... For Example:

and the terms we agreed to when we bought in. From suggesting Disney can add points to a point chart to account for refurbishment purposes (https://www.disboards.com/threads/dvc-point-balancing-2022-vs-2021.3820183/post-62559598),

They DO add more points than they sell -- The sold point total is based on all lock-offs as 2 BRs. When you break them up, it's more points than they sell. So even if every sold point is in use at the resort, as long as some of those lock-offs are broken up, it gives Disney available rooms: Which they can use for refurbishment, maintenance, or breakage.
And yes.... Disney can add small amounts of unsold points just as I suggest -- As proven by what they did with the 2022 point charts, which indeed have slightly more points than the 2021 chart, due to how they managed the seasons.

to suggesting adding a pool is grounds to increase point costs (https://www.disboards.com/threads/dvc-point-balancing-2022-vs-2021.3820183/post-62561661), you repeatedly miss the mark on understanding the timeshare you bought, or the terms under which you bought it.

***? you are confusing different paragraphs about different things. What I said that in a hypothetical vacation club (where ownership is not sold in individual units), ripping down a unit to build a pool would not be dilution of ownership. Building a pool had NOTHING to do with points.
Now, timeshares, including DVC -- sell ownership in individual units. So they can't rip down a unit that is actually sold. But they totally could take undeclared/unsold rooms at Riviera, transform them into a game room -- And it would NOT dilute ownership. Because the ownership of your unit remains fully intact. You don't have a say over units that are undeclared and not part of the condo association upon your purchase.

At one point, you compared the devaluation of ownership people were upset about (via the new shifting Easter 7-season point chart) to the loss of ownership percentage due to the lock-off premium in defense of Disney's changes that violated the POS.

As to the former, artificially creating additional points to book a resort (by way of shifting different weeks into different seasons depending on a shifting holiday) without offset, is not. Is this case, Disney is redefining what "holiday" meant when they originally drafted the POS.

As it pertains to the what Disney can and can't do, you seem to give little credence in the explicit terms of the Agreement we all signed when we bought in; in this instance, dismissing terms in the POS that clearly outline the duties of the Association when representing the owners and entering into the exchange, somehow concluding that is permitted because “new contracts” are drafted.

You are making no sense at all.
YOU made a purchase in 2017 (or whenever), you signed a contract in 2017. That CANNOT be changed. You have all the rights included in that contract. Use rights, re-sale rights, etc.

But for example -- Maybe your 2017 contract sold you points at $180 per point. That does NOT mean every future contract also much be $180 per point.
In 2022... they can change the price of the points. They can also change other terms of the contract -- For purchasers MOVING FORWARD.
They can't change YOUR rights --- That's why we see "grandfathering" of rights.

I hired a Florida-based attorney who specializes in Florida timeshare law to go over the exact terms of the POS with me prior to my conversations with DVCMC around a tax issues and again around the 2022 point chart. Those extensive, POS-specific conversations informed the points I presented to Disney. After Disney took time to "look into" it, in both cases they found cause to change course. Per the point charts, like in 2019, Disney Legal conceded nothing, but like in 2019 Disney's plan is to correct for the additional points created by the new seasons.

I'm not sure how many times Disney needs to back pedal on policy before you start to read the POS the way other members do. But as much as you, and the guy who charged me to do it, would like us to believe, reading and understanding the terms in the POS is not something lawyers have a monopoly on.

To my knowledge, Disney still has not changed that 2022 point chart "back." So you think me and Disney are wrong about what Disney can do. That's fine. Go win a lawsuit against Disney.

 

[havoc315]

You know, one other deciding factor between VGF2 and Riviera Direct which no one has yet brought up is the dining. We love both resorts, but we're not wild about the Riviera dining choices. For us, Topolino's was over priced and so-so (maybe we got them on a bad mid pandemic night last Sept), and the quick service Primo Piatto not to our liking either. We did love Le Petit Cafe, but thats not a place to have a full meal. We wound up walking down to Caribbean Beach for their quick service, which was marginally better, or taking the bus to Disney Springs.

VGF is brimming with many more choices and far better dining, in my opinion. And I love that new walkway to MK! Skyliner, of course is great, but I think its a bit of a stretch to call Riviera an Epcot Resort. Its more like a Caribbean Beach resort with nothing really around it, with relatively easy accessibility to Epcot by a fun ride on the Skyliner. That said, the rooms are beautiful!

It's a significant advantage of VGF, even if you love Toppolino's and Primo Piatto:
Simple fact that Grand Floridian is a much bigger deluxe resort, about three to four times the size of Riviera, and therefore has far more dining options. Riviera has great options for such a relatively small resort -- but it is a small resort. It lacks a non-signature table service restaurant, has no sit-down lunch restaurant. Easy walk to CBR dining -- actually pretty similar to the walk from the GF Villa building to the GF dining options. But those are "moderate" resort dining options, not deluxe.
Though to the credit of each:
VGF sits on the monorail, giving easy access to all the dining at Contemporary and Poly.
Riviera sits on the skyliner, giving easy access to the dining at Boardwalk/Beach Club/Yacht Club. And a nice little bonus -- easy access via skyliner to the Epcot World showcase dining.

 

[sethschroeder]

we're not wild about the Riviera dining choices.

VGF is brimming with many more choices and far better dining, in my opinion.

Except like many I personally think you under estimate the Epcot area. Its great that IMO the best quick service is at RIV but its really about the connection to Epcot. With now basically 350 days of the year being festivals not only do you have the park with all the best dining options you also have a wide range of booths that change every trip you go.

Easy walk to CBR dining -- actually pretty similar to the walk from the GF Villa building to the GF dining options. But those are "moderate" resort dining options, not deluxe.

Thing is if I am walking from VGF to Poly or GF main building I can just jump on the Skyliner and grab lunch or dinner in Epcot, BWV, BC/YC, S/D. Last trip every single dinner we had (except what we made in the room) was in Epcot and we were staying at BWV in the vary last Boardwalk View room.

 

[havoc315]

Thing is if I am walking from VGF to Poly or GF main building I can just jump on the Skyliner and grab lunch or dinner in Epcot, BWV, BC/YC, S/D. Last trip every single dinner we had (except what we made in the room) was in Epcot and we were staying at BWV in the vary last Boardwalk View room.

In my full quote -- I made the same point about the skyliner access. And that's a pro.
But it's not quite the same convenience as choices within a 5 minute walk. While the skyliner is better than a bus, there can be a wait, sometimes substantial. Hours may be limited -- if Epcot closed at 9pm, Skyliner may close at 10pm, cutting your transportation off from your late dinner.
It can do down in bad weather. Have a reservation for dinner at the Yacht Club, coming from Riviera?
15-20 minutes should be plenty of time, to grab a skyliner, walk over to Yacht Club.... But thunderstorm hits, Skyliner shut down for an hour or two. You're now stranded.. no good Disney transportation that will get you directly from Riviera to Yacht Club. Would have to either uber, or take the bus to DHS and then walk from there.
And all those Epcot options are only opened up if you have a park hopper, or on your Epcot days.

So yes, the skyliner is a big pro. But it's not the same as what you have within a 5-10 minute walk.

 

[sethschroeder]

I made the same point about the skyliner access. And that's a pro.

Oh I know I am just saying if I am walking from VGF to POLY then Skyliner isn't really that different for me especially from the new building which is little further away. (Cpt. Cooks is my 2nd favorite QS at resorts behind Primo).

Skyliner shut down for an hour or two. You're now stranded.. no good Disney transportation that will get you directly from Riviera to Yacht Club. Would have to either uber, or take the bus to DHS and then walk from there.

Disney transportation you have options:
BWV -> bus to RIV
RIV -> bus to HS -> boat to YC

On my way back though I personally would simply duck in to Epcot, grab a ride or two, and then hit the skyliner up once the skies cleared up. Flip side if I needed to get the kids to bed I would just call a quick Lyft/Uber.

Also with being at RIV I think you keep a side eye on the radar or have an alert set for lightning. That way you can adjust slightly and possibly leave a little earlier or later. I am hopeful that sometime in the future Disney removes the strict guidelines they have on running the skyliner in thunderstorms though.

 

[havoc315]

Disney transportation you have options:
BWV -> bus to RIV
RIV -> bus to HS -> boat to YC

There is a bus directly between BWV and Riviera? That's news to me. Point is, Riviera bus to HS -- Door to door, at least 20-30 minutes. Boat from DHS to YC, door to door, at least another 20-30 minutes. Minimum of 40-60 minutes, could easily become 90 minutes.

On my way back though I personally would simply duck in to Epcot, grab a ride or two, and then hit the skyliner up once the skies cleared up. Flip side if I needed to get the kids to bed I would just call a quick Lyft/Uber.

If it's 9:30 pm and thunderstorming, what makes you think it's going to clear up in time to re-start the sky liner that night? And going through World Showcase to grab a couple rides at Epcot in the midst of a thunderstorm isn't very fun.

Can grab an Uber from any resort to any resort. So yes, you can do that to get back from YC to Riviera. You can also do that to get between GF and Animal Kingdom Lodge. So that's not exactly a unique advantage of Riviera.

 

[sethschroeder]

There is a bus directly between BWV and Riviera?

Only when the skyliner is down. I think originally it was BCV/RIV but then moved like last February to BWV/RIV. So don't plan on it except when the skyliner goes down to weather. I am not sure if its running when skyliner is planned to be down like end of next January.

Point is, Riviera bus to HS

Which as outlined I just plan around looking at the weather for the day. Leave a little sooner, plan to eat a little later, or switch up dinner plans.

Boat from DHS to YC, door to door, at least another 20-30 minutes.

I would say the boat is more like 10-15 mins (6-10 mins on the actual boat) but you are correct it does add up if the skyliner is down. Also I am not sure what the turn around is on busses to HS for RIV as never been there during it and not much reporting on it.

If it's 9:30 pm and thunderstorming

I mean I wouldn't be there then? I would have left sooner in the night. Flip side I just treat that as the risk and get a Lyft/Uber back. Only time its thunder stormed that late was during Dorian when I was at WDW. I think it rained a little one night but skyliner never went down to my knowledge.

You can also do that to get between GF and Animal Kingdom Lodge. So that's not exactly a unique advantage of Riviera.

Okay? But the Skyliner is not going down every single time Uber/Lyft is a fall back. Taking the uber is not the advantage its taking the Skyliner. You brought up the downside to the Skyliner and I was simply outlining you can deal with that if it happens.

Just for me like I said originally only BWV, BCV, RIV, SSR, OKW have enough food options easily accessible that get me through a full week. I mark BWV, BCV, RIV at the top because of the festivals at Epcot while SSR, OKW are good based on Disney Springs access.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Except like many I personally think you under estimate the Epcot area. Its great that IMO the best quick service is at RIV but its really about the connection to Epcot. With now basically 350 days of the year being festivals not only do you have the park with all the best dining options you also have a wide range of booths that change every trip you go.




Thing is if I am walking from VGF to Poly or GF main building I can just jump on the Skyliner and grab lunch or dinner in Epcot, BWV, BC/YC, S/D. Last trip every single dinner we had (except what we made in the room) was in Epcot and we were staying at BWV in the vary last Boardwalk View room.

Good point about Riviera's connection to Epcot. But here's my issue. When I'm at Riviera I don't feel like I'm in the Epcot area at all. I kind of feel like I'm in the middle of nowhere. I feel like I'm in a nice hotel...in the middle of nowhere. I can get over to Epcot relatively easily, true. But I just don't feel the Epcot magic when I'm looking out over the Caribbean Beach. I don't really feel any magic at all. Its all personal and subjective, but thats why I like VGF better.

 

[Nabas]

Good point about Riviera's connection to Epcot. But here's my issue. When I'm at Riviera I don't feel like I'm in the Epcot area at all. I kind of feel like I'm in the middle of nowhere. I feel like I'm in a nice hotel...in the middle of nowhere. I can get over to Epcot relatively easily, true. But I just don't feel the Epcot magic when I'm looking out over the Caribbean Beach. I don't really feel any magic at all. Its all personal and subjective, but thats why I like VGF better.

Exactly.

Similarly, when I’m at BWV, I don’t feel like I’m at a “Disney’s Hollywood Studios Resort”, even though it’s a 10-minute walk.

When I’m at BWV, I’m at an Epcot Resort.

Someone at PVB could easily walk over to TTC and take a Monorail to Epcot, but I don’t think anyone thinks of PVB as an Epcot Resort.

It's more than transportation. It's a feeling.

 

[sethschroeder]

Good point about Riviera's connection to Epcot. But here's my issue. When I'm at Riviera I don't feel like I'm in the Epcot area at all. I kind of feel like I'm in the middle of nowhere. I feel like I'm in a nice hotel...in the middle of nowhere. I can get over to Epcot relatively easily, true. But I just don't feel the Epcot magic when I'm looking out over the Caribbean Beach. I don't really feel any magic at all. Its all personal and subjective, but thats why I like VGF better.

I mean you really dont have the "Epcot Magic" when you are at BWV either really. Sure you see spaceship earth but I can see that and Tower of Terror from RIV as well.

But I just don't feel the Epcot magic when I'm looking out over the Caribbean Beach.

Also don't feel Magic Kingdom magic when I am looking at the Poly.... Plus the 200 new studios will have pretty much no view of Magic Kingdom and all the pool areas don't overlook Magic Kingdom either if I remember right but never payed that close of attention.

When I’m at BWV, I’m at an Epcot Resort.

See I don't personally see that at all and BWV was my favorite resort, pretty much the only on site resort we have stayed at, and its where we first bought DVC. When I am at BWV I am at the Boardwalk not Epcot.

Someone at PVB could easily walk over to TTC and take a Monorail to Epcot, but I don’t think anyone thinks of PVB as an Epcot Resort.

I know some people view it that way. I personally think its more similar to RIV to Hollywood Studios. When the skyliner is running you are talking about jumping on the skyliner (which is at the resort itself) and then 7 mins to Epcot where as the Monorail once it comes is about 15 mins.

 

[Bing Showei]

But for example -- Maybe your 2017 contract sold you points at $180 per point. That does NOT mean every future contract also much be $180 per point.
In 2022... they can change the price of the points. They can also change other terms of the contract -- For purchasers MOVING FORWARD.
They can't change YOUR rights --- That's why we see "grandfathering" of rights.

Thats not how grandfathering works or why it happens.

When you say things like this, it just underscores my point that you don’t seem to understand the POS, the nature of protections we are afforded therein (in this instance, what is not at all protected), or why Disney does not have carte blanche to do all of the things you keep insisting they do.

All of which would be fine; most owners have never even seen the POS to the timeshare they own; the problem is you swing the “attorney” thing around, claiming to have pored over the POS, while saying nonsense like how owners are grandfathered member benefits because somehow we have “rights” protected by some contract, and stating wrong information from a place of authority. And you get comments like this:

it just seems cleaner and more logical that Disney will figure out a way to keep those restrictions in place, since as an earlier informative post noted it’s more a contract than a condo association issue anyway.

All of this at the cost of degrading the concept of ownership rights by perpetuating the false narrative that unless proven by virtue of a lawsuit, Disney is acting within its rights based on your professional reading, which you repeatedly prove to be questionable at best.

To their credit, Disney has been responsive when members have raised concerns around questionable policy positions. If you’re going to undermine that, at least put in the effort to understand terms of our agreement.