Vaccine harassment

[Starport Seven-Five]

Sigh. What ever happened to HIPAA - or anything related to people's medical choices being their own private business?

HIPAA has nothing to do with you voluntarily sharing your own medical information.

 

[Heigh-Ho]

I think the daughter made an oops in reacting the way she did. The guy was obviously over the line and could have handled it much better (agree with the not out in the open talk) but walking out after only working there for a few months and over this was probably not the best move. I agree with the others who are saying this doesn't rise to workplace harrassment and hostile environment. I understand why she would feel upset but right now she should treat it like a moment in time and move on from that. If the franchise owner came in day after day and did what he did then that would probably change to what she thought it was. That does not mean that people working for the company cares, it doesn't sound like they do. It sounds like they are being realistic to how their particular company works with her telling her it would probably come back on her. Unfortunate that it may be that is how some companies are probably best she learns that now.

I'm going to go ahead and agree with the few others here about the discussion with medical information. I don't disagree that the information may need to be discussed with someone but who is the question. Covid is being treated very differently, for good reason, than other things so I find it understandable why many people shrug off the question as NBD. I doubt I would have an issue with being asked but that doesn't mean it's acceptable just because I'm okay with it so I can see where a person may be off kilter with being asked so bluntly and out in the open.

 

[mom2rtk]

Today it's a vaccine. Medical choices are personal and private.

Next thing you know they'll be closing private businesses and telling you that you can't go to the beach.

 

[AndreaA]

I’ve been retired since age 55 (now 71) and was a consultant managing people. Young people today view so many things as upsetting, intolerable and outrageous it’s almost amusing. Should the owner have bern asking about vaccination? Personally I think he has a right to know snd if he wants, to set a policy requiring a vaccination. Should he have been argumentative and demanding? Of course not. But stop with the outrage and being so offended that the poor thing couldn’t finish her day. Mature employees say to themselves, he was being an *** but I’ll give him some benefit of the doubt about his motives and move on. I have a 25 year old granddaughter who is constantly ‘outraged’. And I know other young people who believe they have a constant need to be ‘right’. I wish we had taught our kids better to roll with the punches, not take everything personally and laugh about things, rather than be constantly offended. Life is just going to get harder. I don’t think our kids are prepared for that. No one has a right to perfection in anything. You need to work for it. I’m sure I’m being preachy but I find the younger generation over entitled in so many ways. I still mentor younger people snd the first thing I say is ‘shut up, listen, give people the benefit of the doubt, and stop taking everything as a personal affront. You will be much happier in your work and personal life’

Have to 100% agree with this. Reminds me of that singer... Demi Lovato?... getting all outraged that a frozen yogurt place had sugar-free options because it was “triggering“ for her due to an eating disorder. Seriously? And then when people told her she was forgetting that people like diabetics exist, her comeback was that the things should have been labeled according to which medical disorder they were created to serve. ***? The world does not owe you an existence free from all mental/emotional strife.

 

[TheIncredibles!]

I’ve been retired since age 55 (now 71) and was a consultant managing people. Young people today view so many things as upsetting, intolerable and outrageous it’s almost amusing. Should the owner have bern asking about vaccination? Personally I think he has a right to know snd if he wants, to set a policy requiring a vaccination. Should he have been argumentative and demanding? Of course not. But stop with the outrage and being so offended that the poor thing couldn’t finish her day. Mature employees say to themselves, he was being an *** but I’ll give him some benefit of the doubt about his motives and move on. I have a 25 year old granddaughter who is constantly ‘outraged’. And I know other young people who believe they have a constant need to be ‘right’. I wish we had taught our kids better to roll with the punches, not take everything personally and laugh about things, rather than be constantly offended. Life is just going to get harder. I don’t think our kids are prepared for that. No one has a right to perfection in anything. You need to work for it. I’m sure I’m being preachy but I find the younger generation over entitled in so many ways. I still mentor younger people snd the first thing I say is ‘shut up, listen, give people the benefit of the doubt, and stop taking everything as a personal affront. You will be much happier in your work and personal life’

Things have changed drastically since you have retired if you believe owners/managers can just do whatever they want however they want and employees have to suck it up.

"Good intentions" or not, this is not an appropriate conversation to ever have within ear shot of somebody else and it is never wrong to want to be treated with respect within the workplace.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I’ve been retired since age 55 (now 71) and was a consultant managing people. Young people today view so many things as upsetting, intolerable and outrageous it’s almost amusing. Should the owner have bern asking about vaccination? Personally I think he has a right to know snd if he wants, to set a policy requiring a vaccination. Should he have been argumentative and demanding? Of course not. But stop with the outrage and being so offended that the poor thing couldn’t finish her day. Mature employees say to themselves, he was being an *** but I’ll give him some benefit of the doubt about his motives and move on. I have a 25 year old granddaughter who is constantly ‘outraged’. And I know other young people who believe they have a constant need to be ‘right’. I wish we had taught our kids better to roll with the punches, not take everything personally and laugh about things, rather than be constantly offended. Life is just going to get harder. I don’t think our kids are prepared for that. No one has a right to perfection in anything. You need to work for it. I’m sure I’m being preachy but I find the younger generation over entitled in so many ways. I still mentor younger people snd the first thing I say is ‘shut up, listen, give people the benefit of the doubt, and stop taking everything as a personal affront. You will be much happier in your work and personal life’

I knew someone would bring this viewpoint as soon as it started being discussed possibly what the daughter's age was.

When I worked at an insurance call center let me tell you for the most part the younger people (which most of us at that time were hired straight out of college) were the ambitious ones. The openness of ideas, the looking at solving a problem a different way (which at times actually saved the company $$), the willingness to learn and adjust on the fly. You know what happened to the older employees? They were often pushed out because they didn't want to change, they didn't want to listen to new ideas, they've been doing it this way for 20+ years no reason to change how they do it. Some were unfairly pushed out IMO but the company had decided for that subset of their operations they wanted to adjust to the times. I always had a soft spot for older employees who found the constant barrage of knowledge at times difficult, who came with a lot of wisdom that I could learn from but who often no longer could keep up with the way things were changing in the insurance world. Things like apps on cell phones, e-mails (you wouldn't believe how many time older agents called me asking for help on how to get into their e-mail...which was not my wheel house at all), texting, how the way insurance industry was adjusting and changing with technology, etc as well as from the call center viewpoint getting the answers quickly and efficiently. Years ago the call center was a much smaller operation. With over 30 states you may be getting calls from you needed to be quick on how to find the answer to move on to the next call. Maybe that's why I personally bristle at times when the whole "them darn young people always wanting more" comes around because of course some fit the bill but so many are just looked at in the worst light.

I tend to find that while people are quite willing to point out the perceived flaws in the youth they often are unwilling to see their own contributions and their own perceived flaws. A 1-way street doesn't often look like maturity to me.

 

[GreatLakes]

Vaccine shaming is bullying. It doesn't matter if it's done by a boss or a teacher or a family member. What happened to privacy and common decency? If YOU want to be vaccinated, then do that for YOU, and you will be protected. Please don't bully other people - they deserve their privacy and the right to protect their own health with the advice of their own medical professionals.

This is a slippery slope folks. Today it's a vaccine. Medical choices are personal and private.

We just got off a lengthy call with our counsel and have been informed we are within our rights to get vaccination status from all employees and inquire as to why anyone isn't vaccinated. Vaccination status has never really been private. Try to enroll your child in public school without sharing vaccination status and records.

I will guarantee here, right now, you will start to see companies mandating vaccination as a condition for returning to in-person work and requiring more substantial documentation than just their word if they are going to be medically exempt.

 

[DisneyTarheel]

This doesn’t matter in the situation. According to the OP, The vaccine isn’t required at her daughter’s work so berating somebody for not answering if they are getting it or not is not acceptable.

You are absolutely correct. Never said it did. I was responding to a point raised by someone other than the OP.

 

[dez1978]

I guess I'm less bothered by that part because nearly everyone I know works somewhere that vaccines are required for employment. So I don't see it the same as "personal medical information" that your employer would not be privy to. To me, vaccination records are just basic information like all your licenses/certifications that are updated annually or upon expiration. Your employer is entitled to the information and if you fail to provide it, you will not be allowed to return to work.

Yep, This. I am required to get a flu shot yearly and a TB test. And required to get a covid test at least monthly, sometimes more (I'm at 13 so far). I feel like asking about your vaccine status during a pandemic is not the same as asking you about a medical condition you might have or birth control as some one else mentioned. Now if they were asking you to specify what medical condition you have that keeps you from getting it, out in front of others, then yeah, thats crossing a line. And even if she didn't feel comfortable telling him the truth, after seeing his interaction with the other employee, she should have just said "yeah I'm getting it" even if she didn't plan to. It's not always worth it to be right or to stand your moral high ground. Definitely a lesson on picking your battles.

 

[mom2rtk]

We just got off a lengthy call with our counsel and have been informed we are within our rights to get vaccination status from all employees and inquire as to why anyone isn't vaccinated. Vaccination status has never really been private. Try to enroll your child in public school without sharing vaccination status and records.

I will guarantee here, right now, you will start to see companies mandating vaccination as a condition for returning to in-person work and requiring more substantial documentation than just their word if they are going to be medically exempt.

I think so too. The vaccine has only been available to any adult who wants it for a nanosecond. We are just getting started with this.

My son contacted me a couple years ago needing a copy of his vaccine record for his employer. And that was pre-pandemic.

 

[dez1978]

Try to enroll your child in public school without sharing vaccination status and records.

I have said this several times. No one throws a fit about having to provide vaccine records to your childs school, which has been the norm for decades, or for travel purposes to other countries. But suddenly its a personal medical issue we shouldn't have to discuss, and its no one elses business.

 

[AndreaA]

I knew someone would bring this viewpoint as soon as it started being discussed possibly what the daughter's age was.

When I worked at an insurance call center let me tell you for the most part the younger people (which most of us at that time were hired straight out of college) were the ambitious ones. The openness of ideas, the looking at solving a problem a different way (which at times actually saved the company $$), the willingness to learn and adjust on the fly. You know what happened to the older employees? They were often pushed out because they didn't want to change, they didn't want to listen to new ideas, they've been doing it this way for 20+ years no reason to change how they do it. Some were unfairly pushed out IMO but the company had decided for that subset of their operations they wanted to adjust to the times. I always had a soft spot for older employees who found the constant barrage of knowledge at times difficult, who came with a lot of wisdom that I could learn from but who often no longer could keep up with the way things were changing in the insurance world. Things like apps on cell phones, e-mails (you wouldn't believe how many time older agents called me asking for help on how to get into their e-mail...which was not my wheel house at all), texting, how the way insurance industry was adjusting and changing with technology, etc as well as from the call center viewpoint getting the answers quickly and efficiently. Years ago the call center was a much smaller operation. With over 30 states you may be getting calls from you needed to be quick on how to find the answer to move on to the next call. Maybe that's why I personally bristle at times when the whole "them darn young people always wanting more" comes around because of course some fit the bill but so many are just looked at in the worst light.

I tend to find that while people are quite willing to point out the perceived flaws in the youth they often are unwilling to see their own contributions and their own perceived flaws. A 1-way street doesn't often look like maturity to me.

None of this has anything to do with a young person feeling so upset after an admittedly unpleasant, but ultimately minor interaction that she needed to leave work. Pretty sure that’s all that the person who talked about youth vs old-timers was talking about as well. Nothing to do with “wanting more” or technology or any of that.

I mean I quickly agreed that the boss was out-of-line to even ask the question, never mind argue and belittle. However, then leaving work early? Not necessary, and really not something most “old timers” would have done.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

None of this has anything to do with a young person feeling so upset after an admittedly unpleasant, but ultimately minor interaction that she needed to leave work. Pretty sure that’s all that the person who talked about youth vs old-timers was talking about as well. Nothing to do with “wanting more” or technology or any of that.

I mean I quickly agreed that the boss was out-of-line to even ask the question, never mind argue and belittle. However, then leaving work early? Not necessary, and really not something most “old timers” would have done.

I was talking to another poster about their feelings at large and was discussing my experience with insurance world and call center. Of course technology wouldn't be applicable to a salon franchise owner...but I thought that was evident I was not speaking directly and specifically and just only about a salon franchise owner..it was about viewpoints of young employees in general. Hopefully that clears up what I was discussing and apologies if there was confusion

 

[AndreaA]

I have said this several times. No one throws a fit about having to provide vaccine records to your childs school, which has been the norm for decades, or for travel purposes to other countries. But suddenly its a personal medical issue we shouldn't have to discuss, and its no one elses business.

It’s quite different when we are talking about approved, long-term vaccines and vaccines which have emergency approval only. Not saying they won’t have full approval soon. Not even saying they aren’t worthy of full approval right now. However, legally, I think that’s thin ice.

 

[DLgal]

The only logical reason I can come up with in my head on why most of the replies here are on the bosses side is because it’s about getting the Covid vaccine and not about any other medical decision.
We are all so desperate to get back to normal and are hoping that most people will get the vaccine so that can happen that we are crossing lines that shouldn’t be crossed.

Would you feel the same way if the bosses question was. are you planning on getting on birth control?

No. This is a case where someone's "medical decision" can have a very real impact on the other employees and customers in the salon. Why is that concept so lost on people? Vaccines are not anything like birth control, for goodness sakes. They are ALLOWED to be required in many situations, so just stop with this parallel.

 

[DLgal]

It’s quite different when we are talking about approved, long-term vaccines and vaccines which have emergency approval only. Not saying they won’t have full approval soon. Not even saying they aren’t worthy of full approval right now. However, legally, I think that’s thin ice.

No, it's not different. A vaccine is a vaccine. Just because it's under EUA doesn't all of a sudden make it some sort of private medical decision that needs to be discussed in private.

 

[karen4546]

I could use some advice to give DD. She has been working as a receptionist at a franchised store for a few months now (so she started during the pandemic and after vaccines were being already administered). The franchise owner came into the store the other day and questioned employees about whether they plan to get the vaccine. DD heard him ask another employee before he got to her, and she was quite upset with the tone he was taking with the other employee.

Once he got to DD, she told him that she really didn’t want to talk with him about the vaccine. (And this isn’t because she has an issue with it, it’s because of his tone. The other employee told him that she was hesitant with the vaccine and was going to wait a little while to do more research. Then the owner started berating her, saying things like “Don’t you care about protecting other people” and “What else do you need to learn about. Millions of people got it and are fine so it’s safe”. )
Because of this behavior by the owner, DD really did not want to have a discussion with him and tried her best to stop the conversation. When she told him that she didn’t have to discuss her views on the vaccine, he told her “Yes you do”. This conversation continued for almost 15 minutes, back and forth. How do I know...she taped it! If I hadn’t heard it for myself, I would think she was exaggerating. But he was actually harassing and bullying her into saying that she would get it.

This upset her so much that she actually ended up leaving before the end of her shift. She called her immediate supervisor and spoke with her before leaving, and again the next day. She told her she would like to speak with someone in corporate about the owner making her job a hostile environment to work in. Her immediate supervisor said that speaking with corporate would only bring it back onto herself.
Any suggestions? She has enjoyed this job up until now, and is now apprehensive to return. UGH!

Employers are offering vaccines for people to PROTECT them. I personally don't understand why people get upset because an employer wants to protect his employees AND business. If people do get the virus and have to be off work then the employer suffers not to mention the person who gets the virus.

Sometimes people can come off the wrong way. If your daughter left before the end of her shift and feels like it is a hostile work environment then maybe she needs to find other employment. I don't think the OWNER should be villainized just because he wants to protect people. I would find out if recording a conversation is against the law in your state. What in the world did your daughter think she would gain by recording the OWNER stating his view on the vaccine?

I think you should tell your daughter to decide for HERSELF if she wants the vaccine and she does not have to tell anyone if she gets it or not. It is her prerogative. But she should also not be recording conversations.

 

[dez1978]

Sigh. What ever happened to HIPAA - or anything related to people's medical choices being their own private business?

I have always gotten my vaccinations; and I made sure my kids had theirs. I also have gotten a Covid vaccine, after my OWN research - so in no way are we anti-vax. But we had a case in school last week where a teacher went around the room in a high school class, asked each kid thier age - and then (if they were over 16) proceeded to ask each kid WHEN they would be getting vaccinated; and then arguing about each kid making SURE they got vaccinate right away. Multiple parents got the same stories from thier kids - so I believe it to be true.

My child, who was in this class, is very tiny (3rd percentile on weight) and not yet sixteen. My child also has 19 current diagnosed allergies - and we continue to discover the hard way (think EpiPen) new SEVERE allergies each year. We have had multiple life-threatening reactions requiring the use of an Epi-Pen - and it's awful each time. So, for multiple reasons, our family's allergist has STRONGLY advised that my child NOT be vaccinated, and that we continue to focus instead on building a strong immune system. That is our private business; and my kid certainly doesn't need to be discussing that with a teacher or a room full of classmates.

Vaccine shaming is bullying. It doesn't matter if it's done by a boss or a teacher or a family member. What happened to privacy and common decency? If YOU want to be vaccinated, then do that for YOU, and you will be protected. Please don't bully other people - they deserve their privacy and the right to protect their own health with the advice of their own medical professionals.

This is a slippery slope folks. Today it's a vaccine. Medical choices are personal and private.

But you never had a problem disclosing your child's vaccination status to their schools... Why is it so much different to disclose if you've had the covid vaccine vs an MMR vaccine? You'd have no problem providing proof of that for your kid to go to school, but the COVID vaccine, well thats a HIPPA/privacy issue? It doesn't work that way.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I have said this several times. No one throws a fit about having to provide vaccine records to your childs school, which has been the norm for decades, or for travel purposes to other countries. But suddenly its a personal medical issue we shouldn't have to discuss, and its no one elses business.

That's why I tried to make the difference. The teacher isn't going to discuss with your student the immunizations. The person who intakes student enrollment is. If you're traveling to another country your flight attendant isn't going to ask you personally if you've gotten whatever vaccine may be required for the country of destination. I honestly can't remember if customs forms ask that but that would be the customs agent who is looking at the required documentation. If you're staying on campus (the most common stipulation) for college for MMR whomever is intaking the required documentation is the one privy to that information. Usually things operate on a "need to know" basis.

I think no one throws a fit (although honestly parents are making a bigger deal about required vaccinations than in the past and exemptions were being used a lot more than in the past..we shall see if covid reverses that trend) because you don't have the same situations often as you do now. I really get both sides here, it's why I've said places need to figure this stuff out whichever way they go. I'm not saying the daughter is in the right, I'm not saying the boss is in the right. I'm saying if the policy is made and known then expectations are set up, people are at least owed that on all sides IMO at least.

 

[dez1978]

It’s quite different when we are talking about approved, long-term vaccines and vaccines which have emergency approval only. Not saying they won’t have full approval soon. Not even saying they aren’t worthy of full approval right now. However, legally, I think that’s thin ice.

I disagree. A vaccine is a vaccine. The FDA approval status doesn't make it "protected, private information" vs the MMR vaccine