Vaccine harassment

[amylevan]

She recorded her own encounter, but was privy to the other conversation because it was right next to her (but she did not record them).

It’s a actually illegal to record a conversation without the other persons knowledge in certain states.

 

[AndreaA]

Since the owner isn’t there often, hopefully this was a one-off confrontation. Encourage your daughter to just forget about it unless it becomes an issue in the future.

I’m more shocked by the responses that say this is an acceptable conversation for a boss to have with employees out in the open... or at all! Good grief, just because we’re in a pandemic and this is about a vaccine, that doesn’t mean that laws and privacy rights are suddenly “nice to have” rather than required.

Pregnancy could arguably affect the business more - needing a maternity replacement, increased healthcare costs, etc.. but if the boss was urging an employee to use birth control or get an abortion, I am pretty sure there would be outrage. Obesity is another that could affect the business on multiple levels - from health care costs to reputation, given that it is a salon situation. However I think that a boss berating someone for their weight and telling them to diet or get liposuction would be roundly condemned. Also, I usually wouldn’t “go there” but I really have to wonder if the boss would have had this conversation if his employees were all a bunch of burly men rather than women he felt he could intimidate...

 

[MamaMermaid]

Gotta be honest, she shouldn't have even discussed it. Easiest response (when she overheard another employee getting an earful from this guy) would to say "yep, already got it!" or something similar. Lessons like that come with age though and based on your post, she sounds young?

Regardless, I wouldn't quit my job over it or file anything.

 

[lorimay]

I guess it comes with age, just say what they want to hear and move on........

 

[Bianca and Bernard]

The owner shouldn’t be discussing others’ medical history in front of (or in earshot of) others.

If someone doesn’t immediately say they have gotten or plan on getting the vaccine, I would assume that that person does not plan on getting it and they don’t want to admit it.

My employer has been asking us to self-report our vaccination status, as it changes our quarantine options if we are exposed. (Vaccinated- tested once and allowed on site if negative. Unvaccinated- tested multiple times, banned from site for at least seven days even with a negative test.) They assume that an employee is unvaccinated unless otherwise told.

DH's employer has reopened their office here, and the rules are simple. You do not have to mask at your desk. If you leave your desk, for any reason, you mask up. If you are vaccinated, you can eat/drink in the breakroom or at your desk. If you are not, you cannot eat or drink at your desk or in the breakroom. You must sanitize when you come back to your desk; when you enter the offices; or as you enter/leave the breakroom. No handshakes, only elbow bumps. If you go to visit someone else at their desk/office, you have to let them know, so they can also mask up before you get there. Wipes are at each desk, and they are supposed to wipe down keyboards/mice/phones/etc in the morning when they arrive, and after lunch.

His company is not forcing vaccinations, but they did offer PTO for vaccination/recovery days (up to a week for each shot); and the office manager has said that if everyone in the office is vaccinated, they will remove the mask wearing/food/drink requirements altogether. It's not going to happen, as there are at least 3 people who are ardent anti-vax/world is flat/anti-mask (but wearing because otherwise they don't work), politician worshiping people. DH is confused on the world is flat guy....he's a geologist; he says 'did he not study his science?'

 

[sarahann77]

I probably would have felt similar to your daughter. It's none of their business what my vaccination status is. The vaccine pretty much is only protecting the person taking it. We were told initially that we could still spread even vaccinated just our symptoms would be minimized or not the serious side affects. That doesn't sound like protecting others to me; just protecting myself. I probably would have gotten fired after that type of conversation as I would have shoved it in their face with - I'm already vaccinated and over 1 month past my second dose.

Recording. As long as she wasn't expecting to share on social media etc was smart to cover herself should it come back from HR or others in the future.

 

[tzolkin]

I guess I shouldn’t be but I am a pretty shocked by some of these replies. So what if the op’s DD is fine getting the vaccine, if she doesn’t feel comfortable discussing her medical choices with her boss, that is her right!! Just wow.

I guess I'm less bothered by that part because nearly everyone I know works somewhere that vaccines are required for employment. So I don't see it the same as "personal medical information" that your employer would not be privy to. To me, vaccination records are just basic information like all your licenses/certifications that are updated annually or upon expiration. Your employer is entitled to the information and if you fail to provide it, you will not be allowed to return to work.

The only logical reason I can come up with in my head on why most of the replies here are on the bosses side is because it’s about getting the Covid vaccine and not about any other medical decision.

Reading the replies, I didn't see most people "on the boss's side". I absolutely believe that he was behaving completely inappropriately and was in the wrong. However, the OP's daughter has no control over how HE choses to act; she only has control over her own response (both at the time of the incident and where she plans to take this in the future) so that's what posters are responding to and offering advice about.

This is a good learning experience for her on dealing with confrontation and difficult people. It sounds like she was attempting to diffuse the situation by saying that she didn't want to talk about it, but obviously she has learned that was not the best tactic for this man's personality type. She had a bit of an advantage by already witnessing his hostility toward her co-worker. Being defensive or saying things like "I don't have to..." to people like this who are already agitated is definitely not the best idea. This would have been much better:

I guess it comes with age, just say what they want to hear and move on........

I don't typically advocate lying, but in this situation it would have been best for her to say as little as possible and not argue or push the "I don't have to tell you" "I don't want to talk about it" angle. "Yup, made an appointment"-- Diffuse the situation as quickly as possible, consider your options, decide on your best approach, and then go discuss it with him later.

 

[NYCgrrl]

I could use some advice to give DD. She has been working as a receptionist at a franchised store for a few months now (so she started during the pandemic and after vaccines were being already administered). The franchise owner came into the store the other day and questioned employees about whether they plan to get the vaccine. DD heard him ask another employee before he got to her, and she was quite upset with the tone he was taking with the other employee.

Once he got to DD, she told him that she really didn’t want to talk with him about the vaccine. (And this isn’t because she has an issue with it, it’s because of his tone. The other employee told him that she was hesitant with the vaccine and was going to wait a little while to do more research. Then the owner started berating her, saying things like “Don’t you care about protecting other people” and “What else do you need to learn about. Millions of people got it and are fine so it’s safe”. )
Because of this behavior by the owner, DD really did not want to have a discussion with him and tried her best to stop the conversation. When she told him that she didn’t have to discuss her views on the vaccine, he told her “Yes you do”. This conversation continued for almost 15 minutes, back and forth. How do I know...she taped it! If I hadn’t heard it for myself, I would think she was exaggerating. But he was actually harassing and bullying her into saying that she would get it.

This upset her so much that she actually ended up leaving before the end of her shift. She called her immediate supervisor and spoke with her before leaving, and again the next day. She told her she would like to speak with someone in corporate about the owner making her job a hostile environment to work in. Her immediate supervisor said that speaking with corporate would only bring it back onto herself.
Any suggestions? She has enjoyed this job up until now, and is now apprehensive to return. UGH!

OK there is a corporate headquarters as well as a franchise owner. First, check for corporate documents; often can be found on the internet if your daughter doesn’t have it. Policy statements, HR procedures, etc. is what is being sought for guidance. Read them and now informed, send an email to the pertinent correspondents explaining your concerns. This method will allow your DD to choose her words yet make her point. If no response go to the next level including the supervisor, owner AND corporate.
GL and HTH.

PS - you should be aware of what municipal, county, state regulations and laws are in play for your area. No sense in giving advice for what happens in another area.

 

[Makmak]

I think it’s telling by the responses that those with different levels of experience (age) have different opinions. We old folks have probably worked in environments where we had bosses that overstepped and treated us as “less than” because the feudal system at work was what we were taught “is normal.” Times are changing and younger people have less tolerance for inappropriate behavior and are often very shocked and upset by it (hence the leaving early). The idea of recording things is also very normalized because we all have cell phones pretty much. When I had a disagreement with a student in class there were instantly 25 phones being held up, with some students hoping to catch some drama to become YouTube famous while others felt it was their right, nay, obligation to document anything inappropriate that I may say. We have a no phones in class policy and when I went to my superior I was told that it’s basically impossible to enforce and to “just assume everything you do is recorded and shared with the world online.” And rest assured, every single student knew we are a single party consent state (because we talked about it afterwards). So for those saying recording was immature or illegal, it’s really just something that comes naturally to young people who have grown up with everything on video. I’m not defending it and I think it’s weird because I’m older but I just wanted to point out that recording is very normal as a reaction to anticipated mistreatment/drama for many young people.

 

[TheIncredibles!]

This is an HR issue and should be addressed with Corporate. If he is a franchise owner he can be held responsible for his actions.

It's concerning and puzzling that people think an owner has the right to question and/or dictate personal medical decisions.

 

[Gf77]

The worst part of this pandemic is what it has done to humanity. It has shone a light on it, and revealed all our flaws. Every day we find new ways to divide ourselves from our fellow human beings, creating imaginary lines in imaginary sand and assaulting anyone who dares question the need for the line, let alone anyone who dare cross it.

The replies in this thread are soul crushing to hear. It just goes to show that people are capable of committing unthinkable wrongs if they truly believe they are in the right.
Your daughter did nothing wrong. She needs to figure out what is worth fighting for, and if this is something she feels strongly about, fight like heck. Not all battles are worth fighting, it’s up to her to decide. I decided long ago that a career is the smallest, least important part of my life. It’s tough when you have kids, because you need to deal with things you otherwise wouldn’t for their benefit (i.e. having a steady paycheck), but if your daughter is young and childless she has all the options in the world. This is not ok, and I hope when the fog of war clears and the fear subsides in a decade and we look back, we are ashamed of what we let ourselves turn into from fear.

 

[ronandannette]

I guess I shouldn’t be but I am a pretty shocked by some of these replies. So what if the op’s DD is fine getting the vaccine, if she doesn’t feel comfortable discussing her medical choices with her boss, that is her right!! Just wow.

The only logical reason I can come up with in my head on why most of the replies here are on the bosses side is because it’s about getting the Covid vaccine and not about any other medical decision.
We are all so desperate to get back to normal and are hoping that most people will get the vaccine so that can happen that we are crossing lines that shouldn’t be crossed.

Would you feel the same way if the bosses question was. are you planning on getting on birth control?

Most of the posts you’re referring to are not exactly siding with the boss; most of us probably agree the boss was being a jerk. The larger point being made was of a practical nature. This kind of conflict can arise unexpectedly in a workplace and quite frankly, anybody with age, experience (and professional success) had advised that sucking it up and moving on is the right play here. Running this up the HR chain is quite frankly absurd and won’t end well for the receptionist, who by the way, is extremely expendable. And I’d love to be a fly on the wall of the employment lawyer’s office when she tries to mount a case for wrongful dismissal. (Hyperbole of course.)

opinions maybe.
I work in medical research and the average person does not have the capacity to comprehend the majority of articles published in peer reviewed journals.
Watching YouTube videos and reading social media is not doing research.
Sorry this is a sore point for me after 30 years in the field of medical research!

But yet a combination of these things are how most of us try to gain knowledge and understanding of complex issues outside our areas of expertise. What would you suggest instead?

 

[Karin1984]

@Kellykins1218, as you are placing laughing emojis to everyone in this thread who agrees with the daughter's actions, what are your thoughts?

 

[mjkacmom]

The worst part of this pandemic is what it has done to humanity. It has shone a light on it, and revealed all our flaws. Every day we find new ways to divide ourselves from our fellow human beings, creating imaginary lines in imaginary sand and assaulting anyone who dares question the need for the line, let alone anyone who dare cross it.

The replies in this thread are soul crushing to hear. It just goes to show that people are capable of committing unthinkable wrongs if they truly believe they are in the right.
Your daughter did nothing wrong. She needs to figure out what is worth fighting for, and if this is something she feels strongly about, fight like heck. Not all battles are worth fighting, it’s up to her to decide. I decided long ago that a career is the smallest, least important part of my life. It’s tough when you have kids, because you need to deal with things you otherwise wouldn’t for their benefit (i.e. having a steady paycheck), but if your daughter is young and childless she has all the options in the world. This is not ok, and I hope when the fog of war clears and the fear subsides in a decade and we look back, we are ashamed of what we let ourselves turn into from fear.

I don’t think anyone is defending the boss at all, he’s a jerk, what he did was wrong, what most are saying is that it’s not a hill to die on. I once had a boss throw something at me, in a white color environment. She apologized (day drinking had that effect on her). Maybe she should write down what was said and when, and it this continues, and she can show a history of similar confrontations, then she can escalate the situation.

 

[mefordis]

opinions maybe.
I work in medical research and the average person does not have the capacity to comprehend the majority of articles published in peer reviewed journals.
Watching YouTube videos and reading social media is not doing research.
Sorry this is a sore point for me after 30 years in the field of medical research!

Agreed. Most people rely on expert opinions from people who have been working in the field and have gained respect from their colleagues, have been published, and have proven accomplishments. Those are the people I trust. When those experts disagree, that is when people have to use their gut and common sense to determine what course of action is right for them.

 

[leahgoogle]

DH's employer has reopened their office here, and the rules are simple. You do not have to mask at your desk. If you leave your desk, for any reason, you mask up. If you are vaccinated, you can eat/drink in the breakroom or at your desk. If you are not, you cannot eat or drink at your desk or in the breakroom. You must sanitize when you come back to your desk; when you enter the offices; or as you enter/leave the breakroom. No handshakes, only elbow bumps. If you go to visit someone else at their desk/office, you have to let them know, so they can also mask up before you get there. Wipes are at each desk, and they are supposed to wipe down keyboards/mice/phones/etc in the morning when they arrive, and after lunch.

His company is not forcing vaccinations, but they did offer PTO for vaccination/recovery days (up to a week for each shot); and the office manager has said that if everyone in the office is vaccinated, they will remove the mask wearing/food/drink requirements altogether. It's not going to happen, as there are at least 3 people who are ardent anti-vax/world is flat/anti-mask (but wearing because otherwise they don't work), politician worshiping people. DH is confused on the world is flat guy....he's a geologist; he says 'did he not study his science?'

All that sanitizing would drive me nuts...lol. Haven’t they heard that it doesn’t spread via surfaces like first thought?

 

[SirDuff]

I don’t think anyone is defending the boss at all, he’s a jerk, what he did was wrong, what most are saying is that it’s not a hill to die on. I once had a boss throw something at me, in a white color environment. She apologized (day drinking had that effect on her). Maybe she should write down what was said and when, and it this continues, and she can show a history of similar confrontations, then she can escalate the situation.

white collar?

 

[MamaMermaid]

No one is defending the boss. He sounds like a jerk.

 

[PezRuth]

No one is defending the boss. The boss is a jerk. Honestly my concern is around the recording. I just cannot imagine recording a conversation in a work environment like that but maybe it is because I am old.

 

[mjkacmom]

white collar?

Like literal white collar, men in suits, women in suits/professional attire.