Vaccine harassment

[SirDuff]

Like literal white collar, men in suits, women in suits/professional attire.

You wrote white COLOR, so I was asking for clarity.

 

[DisneyTarheel]

I probably would have felt similar to your daughter. It's none of their business what my vaccination status is. The vaccine pretty much is only protecting the person taking it. We were told initially that we could still spread even vaccinated just our symptoms would be minimized or not the serious side affects. That doesn't sound like protecting others to me; just protecting myself. I probably would have gotten fired after that type of conversation as I would have shoved it in their face with - I'm already vaccinated and over 1 month past my second dose.

Recording. As long as she wasn't expecting to share on social media etc was smart to cover herself should it come back from HR or others in the future.

While herd immunity reduces/stops the spread, it also reduces the opportunity for the virus to mutate into something even more dangerous. The greater the population that skips the vaccine, the greater the chance of this happening. So, there is a societal impact, not just a personal impact, from those electing to forgo the vaccine. The same fallacy is often used by folks refusing to wear masks.

 

[Gf77]

Stop saying no one is defending the boss. That’s verifiably untrue if you read the thread, but it’s worse than that. Even the people criticizing the bosses delivery are defending his intentions and admonishing her for recording the encounter. There is some pretty serious gaslighting going on here.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I guess I'm less bothered by that part because nearly everyone I know works somewhere that vaccines are required for employment. So I don't see it the same as "personal medical information" that your employer would not be privy to. To me, vaccination records are just basic information like all your licenses/certifications that are updated annually or upon expiration. Your employer is entitled to the information and if you fail to provide it, you will not be allowed to return to work.

To many it's no big deal. I mean it certainly isn't to me to say to the rooftops that I got the vaccine.

In general many occupations do not nor will not discuss immunizations just like they won't discuss birth control. I know that was brought up in a way different context but the one I was thinking of was when health care plans now covered it for free, I was thinking for instance how Hobby Lobby reacted. Even things for college requirements your RA in the dorm isn't going to come knocking at your door asking if you got your MMR vaccine.

It is your personal medical information regardless of how comfortable or not comfortable you are discussing it. But that's why I wrote what I wrote. What I'm more saying is there's usually a chain of command in who is privy to what if it's a condition for employment which includes licenses, includes citizenships, includes medical information. Places need to figure that out real quick how they want to handle it. For my husband's company (a global construction and engineering company), that information is kept confidential with HR (this was the case too when it came to covid cases) if an employee opts to share although P.E. licenses are public information (because...well it's a state license..you can easily look that up) and are only discussed as in "make sure you keep up with the courses". The renewals are paid by the company. With my mom's retail place she is working at, they haven't figured it out yet. They don't even know how mask mandates will be as in will it be a company policy to continue to require guests and employees to wear masks or in places that no longer have mandates will the store manager get to choose, will the district manager choose, etc. Regardless time is ticking on this, better figure it out one way or another.

 

[Colleen27]

The only logical reason I can come up with in my head on why most of the replies here are on the bosses side is because it’s about getting the Covid vaccine and not about any other medical decision.
We are all so desperate to get back to normal and are hoping that most people will get the vaccine so that can happen that we are crossing lines that shouldn’t be crossed.

Would you feel the same way if the bosses question was. are you planning on getting on birth control?

Apples to oranges. The boss wasn't asking about a private health matter that has no bearing on his business. I don't know about the OP's area, but around me, we're in this weird phase of the pandemic where between staffing shortages and positive cases and subsequent quarantines, it is very hard for businesses to operate even semi-normally to the extent allowed by capacity limits and other restrictions. I can totally understand why an employer would feel like he had a vested interest in knowing whether one employee testing positive would be a minor inconvenience (one employee out sick) or a catastrophe (all/most of the healthy staff having to quarantine because they're not vaccinated). So yes, my feeling that the boss is justified in asking his employees this one specific question about their healthcare choices is absolutely because that question is about the covid vaccine in the middle of a pandemic rather than about birth control or a measles vaccine or any other medical issue.

 

[AndreaA]

Apples to oranges. The boss wasn't asking about a private health matter that has no bearing on his business. I don't know about the OP's area, but around me, we're in this weird phase of the pandemic where between staffing shortages and positive cases and subsequent quarantines, it is very hard for businesses to operate even semi-normally to the extent allowed by capacity limits and other restrictions. I can totally understand why an employer would feel like he had a vested interest in knowing whether one employee testing positive would be a minor inconvenience (one employee out sick) or a catastrophe (all/most of the healthy staff having to quarantine because they're not vaccinated). So yes, my feeling that the boss is justified in asking his employees this one specific question about their healthcare choices is absolutely because that question is about the covid vaccine in the middle of a pandemic rather than about birth control or a measles vaccine or any other medical issue.

Asking may be understandable (although doing so in front of others is still absolutely unwarranted) but then arguing and berating someone for their answer is both unprofessional borderline abusive. Again I’ll say that I seriously doubt he’d have done the same for male employees.

 

[mjkacmom]

You wrote white COLOR, so I was asking for clarity.

Sorry, haven’t had coffee yet!

 

[Alicefan]

The only logical reason I can come up with in my head on why most of the replies here are on the bosses side is because it’s about getting the Covid vaccine and not about any other medical decision.
We are all so desperate to get back to normal and are hoping that most people will get the vaccine so that can happen that we are crossing lines that shouldn’t be crossed.

Would you feel the same way if the bosses question was. are you planning on getting on birth control?

Hear hear! The subject should've been dropped the minute she said she didn't want to discuss it. He was in the wrong for going further. And you are right about the whys here.

On the other hand, as for the story. I've worked in salons for 30 years and I have to take a step back here because in a salon it is typically a MUCH more laid back atmosphere and we still tend to talk very openly amongst ourselves because the salon environment is just more relaxed. We are all more like family than coworkers and that's just the way this business is. so the minute I saw "salon" I shifted gears a little.
This is not the boss sitting in the big office smoking a cigar with a bunch of people in cubicles, but a much more relaxed and casual kind of job where coworkers will tell you every BIT of their business, so in my mind, it was probably a bit more like having a conversation while out for drinks...if I know my business as well as I think I do. Possibly the daughter is not used to this kind of candidness in the work place? Ladies, you know what it's like in your salon. A bunch of laughing and story telling etc...It's all about context here. If my "boss" were to yell out that I was being a baby about the vaccine (which is something she would do), in front of customers. I would just tell her to shut her pie hole or something. OR I could record her and be all offended so....this may be a generational thing. We're living in a time where everyone is looking for something to be all up in arms about and can't handle zilch. So I'm at a stalemate not being able to know the atmosphere of her workplace as to just how malicious this was or was it just a heated or passionate debate? Either way, quitting her job would be unprofessional too. You have to learn to roll with the punches and that things in the workplace aren't always sunshine and roses. Suck it up and move on. Now if it's a reoccurring event and a hostile work environment not solely based on this one day...yeah, there are a million salon jobs out there.

 

[LovesTimone]

First off your daughter should not have recorded the conversation with franchise owner, there is all kinds of legal issues here... as she did not inform him she was recording the conversation... and I will bet that she can be let go for something like this...

As the Franchise Owner, he is the boss.... her boss and its his business and while there is a cooperate office they are pretty much there to support the owner, and safe guard the brand... In the franchise the owner makes the rules as its his business...just like with people that start a business from scratch... we have friends that own a very large business, with over 100+ employees... and they have decided to require everyone to have a vaccine, with exceptions of course if someone can not take the vaccine for medical reasons... most of the staff had already gotten it and were pushing for them to require it, and are very happy that they are taking all the employees health as well as their families health into account going forward... the bottom line is that they are the owners and its their business.... so their rules... is another way to look at it...

Another thought is If everyone has had their vaccine in the office, getting back to normal and the cash flow to run the business improves which is how he pays the staff, and the bills not only for the business as well he provides for his family this way...... he most likely is worried about the business itself... He most likely is like alot of other people worried about the future... he has a huge investment so if the business was to be shutter, he is left holding the bag... if the business closes, your DD can move on to another job...

He should have not went about it the way he did... I totally agree with that..He might or maybe should be having a open meeting and discussion, would have been a better way to handle things. As well if there is a policy change and they are requiring the vaccine - especially if you work directly with the public he can site this "due to public health safety" he is deciding to require it, then everyone would be on the same page..and you can as an employee decide if you want to continue to work there... or like my hair dresser she said she hasn't decided yet and her clients are asking her... I said you should just tell them you haven't have had time to get an appointment...which gives her time to decide whats right for her... and she asked me if I will still see her if she decides not to... I was like of course, I already had my vaccines, and its not my place to tell you want to do...

I'm not understanding why your daughter felt it was okay to leave her job, there were other co-workers, and customers that depended on her... she left them high and dry, which is not professional at all... in most place's walking off the job is grounds for dismissal... If she returns to work, my suggestion would be not to bring it up, and stay away from the discussion about it... Because someone will tell the boss everything that gets said... trust me on this one... and if someone ask her at work what she is going to do... i would go with I haven't had time to make an appointment... and leave it at that...

Learning to deal with difficult people whether they are co-workers, supervisor's, or customers, is a very important life lesson for everyone to learn when they first start out... the world is tough, and harsh place... and right now there is no curve or guideline to be able to go by...

 

[mom2rtk]

The idea of recording things is also very normalized because we all have cell phones pretty much.

That has nothing to do with the legality of it.

 

[tzolkin]

Follow up question to the private medical information discussion-- If you tested positive for COVID throughout this pandemic, was your employer notified? I believe that has been the case, but perhaps that has varied by state? If your employer has the "right" to know if you have a positive test result, would that right also extend to immunization status?

Asking may be understandable (although doing so in front of others is still absolutely unwarranted) but then arguing and berating someone for their answer is both unprofessional borderline abusive. Again I’ll say that I seriously doubt he’d have done the same for male employees.

Absolutely agree. I think everyone in this entire thread acknowledges that the boss was an inappropriate jerk. No one has excused the manner in which he spoke to his employees or said he was justified for yelling/insulting/intimidating them. I think we all agree that was wrong.

 

[Alicefan]

Getting the vaccine helps to protect everyone. Birth control, not so much. So I'm not sure it's a fair question comparison.

They are both medical and no one has to answer any medical questions regardless of what the benefits are lol. I'm not sure I wouldn't be taken a back if my boss yelled out, "Hey! have you gotten a polio vaccine?" The thing to me is this, every person that walks in the door of my salon is talking about this and yes it does get uncomfortable trying to explain why I haven't gotten mine yet. It's as bad as people asking who I was voting for. It's controversial and starts heated debates. Yes, people are shaming those of us who haven't had it yet or who aren't sure they want it. It's a thing. Again, I'm on the fence a bit with this one because I know the tone of salons and the younger people these days would find 99% of what is said in a salon offensive so...??

 

[leahgoogle]

While herd immunity reduces/stops the spread, it also reduces the opportunity for the virus to mutate into something even more dangerous. The greater the population that skips the vaccine, the greater the chance of this happening. So, there is a societal impact, not just a personal impact, from those electing to forgo the vaccine. The same fallacy is often used by folks refusing to wear masks.

This doesn’t matter in the situation. According to the OP, The vaccine isn’t required at her daughter’s work so berating somebody for not answering if they are getting it or not is not acceptable.

 

[KittyKitty]

Considering he's the owner I doubt there is much corporate would do. I would update my resume and start searching elsewhere.

In the work place, we all run into managers/owners who don't fit our acceptable work atmosphere. Have her keep the recording, update her resume, show up for work on time, smile, and start looking for a new job.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Follow up question to the private medical information discussion-- If you tested positive for COVID throughout this pandemic, was your employer notified? I believe that has been the case, but perhaps that has varied by state? If your employer has the "right" to know if you have a positive test result, would that right also extend to immunization status?

Employer is the company you work for. Employer isn't necessarily the manager on duty, the supervisor, project boss, the store manager, the franchise owner, or the district manager. Over the threads people have discussed that they needed to notify their company. That did not mean they called up their boss to let them know, it could, but it didn't by default.

Employer may need medical information, if they require it. That does not mean the same thing by default as what is being discussed in this thread with a franchise owner.

 

[amylevan]

Here’s the uncomfortable truth - if he’s the franchise owner, there isn’t going to be much recourse unless he broke a law. He might be a jerk, but I don’t see any laws violated. (And again, depending on the state, the daughter might be the one who broke a law). Therefore, she needs decide if this is someone she wants to work for. If she likes the job, rarely sees him, and wants to stay she’s going to need to suck it up (and hope she doesn’t get in trouble for leaving early...). If she’d rather not work for him, start looking for another job.

 

[cedricandsophie]

I’ve been retired since age 55 (now 71) and was a consultant managing people. Young people today view so many things as upsetting, intolerable and outrageous it’s almost amusing. Should the owner have bern asking about vaccination? Personally I think he has a right to know snd if he wants, to set a policy requiring a vaccination. Should he have been argumentative and demanding? Of course not. But stop with the outrage and being so offended that the poor thing couldn’t finish her day. Mature employees say to themselves, he was being an *** but I’ll give him some benefit of the doubt about his motives and move on. I have a 25 year old granddaughter who is constantly ‘outraged’. And I know other young people who believe they have a constant need to be ‘right’. I wish we had taught our kids better to roll with the punches, not take everything personally and laugh about things, rather than be constantly offended. Life is just going to get harder. I don’t think our kids are prepared for that. No one has a right to perfection in anything. You need to work for it. I’m sure I’m being preachy but I find the younger generation over entitled in so many ways. I still mentor younger people snd the first thing I say is ‘shut up, listen, give people the benefit of the doubt, and stop taking everything as a personal affront. You will be much happier in your work and personal life’

 

[Makmak]

That has nothing to do with the legality of it.

Read slightly above, where I say it’s a single party consent state. You don’t have to like it (I don’t like it, I find it weird), but it’s legal here and people know it and have decided it’s their right and some feel it’s a civic duty.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

They are both medical and no one has to answer any medical questions regardless of what the benefits are lol.

While this is true, they also don't have to employ you. A drug screening is medical information that pretty much all of us have shared with our employers at some point so these things are more gray area than written in stone.

I’ve been retired since age 55 (now 71) and was a consultant managing people. Young people today view so many things as upsetting, intolerable and outrageous it’s almost amusing. Should the owner have bern asking about vaccination? Personally I think he has a right to know snd if he wants, to set a policy requiring a vaccination. Should he have been argumentative and demanding? Of course not. But stop with the outrage and being so offended that the poor thing couldn’t finish her day. Mature employees say to themselves, he was being an *** but I’ll give him some benefit of the doubt about his motives and move on. I have a 25 year old granddaughter who is constantly ‘outraged’. And I know other young people who believe they have a constant need to be ‘right’. I wish we had taught our kids better to roll with the punches, not take everything personally and laugh about things, rather than be constantly offended. Life is just going to get harder. I don’t think our kids are prepared for that. No one has a right to perfection in anything. You need to work for it. I’m sure I’m being preachy but I find the younger generation over entitled in so many ways. I still mentor younger people snd the first thing I say is ‘shut up, listen, give people the benefit of the doubt, and stop taking everything as a personal affront. You will be much happier in your work and personal life’

Eh, I respect the younger generation on this because so many employers abuse their employees and take them for granted. The shifting power dynamic is a welcome change.

 

[notatallmagic]

Sigh. What ever happened to HIPAA - or anything related to people's medical choices being their own private business?

I have always gotten my vaccinations; and I made sure my kids had theirs. I also have gotten a Covid vaccine, after my OWN research - so in no way are we anti-vax. But we had a case in school last week where a teacher went around the room in a high school class, asked each kid thier age - and then (if they were over 16) proceeded to ask each kid WHEN they would be getting vaccinated; and then arguing about each kid making SURE they got vaccinate right away. Multiple parents got the same stories from thier kids - so I believe it to be true.

My child, who was in this class, is very tiny (3rd percentile on weight) and not yet sixteen. My child also has 19 current diagnosed allergies - and we continue to discover the hard way (think EpiPen) new SEVERE allergies each year. We have had multiple life-threatening reactions requiring the use of an Epi-Pen - and it's awful each time. So, for multiple reasons, our family's allergist has STRONGLY advised that my child NOT be vaccinated, and that we continue to focus instead on building a strong immune system. That is our private business; and my kid certainly doesn't need to be discussing that with a teacher or a room full of classmates.

Vaccine shaming is bullying. It doesn't matter if it's done by a boss or a teacher or a family member. What happened to privacy and common decency? If YOU want to be vaccinated, then do that for YOU, and you will be protected. Please don't bully other people - they deserve their privacy and the right to protect their own health with the advice of their own medical professionals.

This is a slippery slope folks. Today it's a vaccine. Medical choices are personal and private.