Vaccine harassment

[Disneylover99]

I see your point IF the person being asked is ok with answering. The employee in this story, wasn’t. A boss/manager berating an employee for a personal medical decision is not OK.

The daughter had a heads up listening to another co-worker being asked, so she probably knew the question was coming.
Right or wrong she could have saved herself a whole lot of upset and said yes, I'm getting it. It might have diffused the situation.
Not saying the boss wasn't being a jerk or unprofessional or whatever, but as someone already mentioned, you gotta pick your battles.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

There was actually another employee that covers the desk when they aren’t otherwise busy....and she just happened to be not busy at that time. This is a salon type business. And by saying that she didn’t tell wish to discuss the vaccine, she actually thought she was avoiding a confrontation , since the other employee stated her views and there was a confrontation. He actually called her a scared little baby because he “thought” that she didn’t want the vaccine. And she never said what her feelings were one way or another.

That's the tricky part of conversation sometimes. I think she started off trying to avoid confrontation by going the more neutral stance of no comment either way (although it appears saying "doesn't have to discuss" put the franchise owner on the immediate defense). I think the misstep was the back and forth discussion that ensued. It went from a "don't want to discuss" to continuing to discuss and even if the franchise owner wasn't in the right on how he handled it it could make her look like she was a combative employee even when it never started off that way. I understand there's different sides here. It's a flashpoint right now though with the vaccine so it doesn't surprise me strong emotions with respects to it and in the end both the franchise owner and your daughter both agree with the importance of getting the vaccine at least it seems that way.

 

[TwoMisfits]

She recorded her own encounter, but was privy to the other conversation because it was right next to her (but she did not record them).

But does the law in your state allow that? There are many states that require 2 party approved recording - what she did is even criminal in some states (like WA). And while it doesn't tend to be charged as one, it still has civil penalties.

Secret recording is a BAD activity to conduct in a workplace, unless she is literally recording a crime (which she was not).

 

[DLgal]

She recorded her own encounter, but was privy to the other conversation because it was right next to her (but she did not record them).

I meant that unless she heard him using that kind of language with the other person, and expected the same treatment, she overstepped by recording her own conversation. That's a really immature thing to do. What made her decide to do that? Social media? Unless an actual law is being broken or crime is being committed, recording a conversation with a co worker, boss, etc, is a violation of privacy. She could probably be fired (or worse) just for doing that, if the owner found out. In my state, for example, it is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of up to $2,500.

Under Federal law, it is legal to record a conversation as long as one-party gives consent to the recording. ... In California, it is a misdemeanor to record a conversation without the consent of all parties to the conversation, which can lead to fines of up to $2,500 and/or imprisonment for up to a year.

Surreptitious recording
Although recordings can be useful to resolve disputed facts about a conversation, surreptitious recording in the workplace can create both legal and business risks for employers. Both employers and employees may violate state and federal wiretap laws by recording without consent.

Google the law in your state. Your daughter needs to not make a habit of this behavior.

 

[handinpocket]

Kudos to your daughter for protecting herself and RECORDING that jerk. In this political climate, I would record EVERY interaction. In my state, only 1 party has to know.

 

[Traveling on cc points]

The daughter had a heads up listening to another co-worker being asked, so she probably knew the question was coming.
Right or wrong she could have saved herself a whole lot of upset and said yes, I'm getting it. It might have diffused the situation.
Not saying the boss wasn't being a jerk or unprofessional or whatever, but as someone already mentioned, you gotta pick your battles.

The only logical reason I can come up with in my head on why most of the replies here are on the bosses side is because it’s about getting the Covid vaccine and not about any other medical decision.
We are all so desperate to get back to normal and are hoping that most people will get the vaccine so that can happen that we are crossing lines that shouldn’t be crossed.

Would you feel the same way if the bosses question was. are you planning on getting on birth control?

 

[CdnCarrie]

She is probably capable of reading opinions of doctors and microbiologists.

opinions maybe.
I work in medical research and the average person does not have the capacity to comprehend the majority of articles published in peer reviewed journals.
Watching YouTube videos and reading social media is not doing research.
Sorry this is a sore point for me after 30 years in the field of medical research!

 

[TwoMisfits]

The only logical reason I can come up with in my head on why most of the replies here are on the bosses side is because it’s about getting the Covid vaccine and not about any other medical decision.
We are all so desperate to get back to normal and are hoping that most people will get the vaccine so that can happen that we are crossing lines that shouldn’t be crossed.

Would you feel the same way if the bosses question was. are you planning on getting on birth control?

My answer is unchanged. I support those who don't get vaccinated b/c that's their right (even while I cheerlead for those who do, b/c I can support people's rights even if I don't agree with what they decide). I've posted that fact on this board multiple times.

But, you can't do what her daughter did in a workplace and expect to keep your job. I've already listed the reasons above.

PS - The military asks the question you posted. I always answered it, and not in the way the military preferred, but they wanted an answer to plan, not a discussion on whether the question should ever be asked, and I gave it.

 

[Disneylover99]

The only logical reason I can come up with in my head on why most of the replies here are on the bosses side is because it’s about getting the Covid vaccine and not about any other medical decision.
We are all so desperate to get back to normal and are hoping that most people will get the vaccine so that can happen that we are crossing lines that shouldn’t be crossed.

Would you feel the same way if the bosses question was. are you planning on getting on birth control?

Getting the vaccine helps to protect everyone. Birth control, not so much. So I'm not sure it's a fair question comparison.

But to answer your question, yes, I probably would answer that question openly and not be bothered by it, but I'm like that.

I've also had experience with a temperamental, confrontational, fly off the handle boss for many years. Best boss I've ever had. You always knew where you stood. Everything was out in the open. I can respect that. It's the happy, sunshiney bosses who will stab you in the back if necessary that you have to watch out for. lol. So that's where I'm coming from.

 

[FQLover]

"Would you feel the same way if the bosses question was. are you planning on getting on birth control?"

Really?? How does that topic affect the salon customers? It does not. However, getting, or not getting, a vaccination for a virus during a pandemic absolutely does affect the safety of the salon customers which presumably should be the boss's concern and responsibility.

 

[ashley0139]

Yeah, I really don’t understand why if she is planning on getting a vaccine and has no problem with it she didn’t just say “yeah I’m planning on getting it” instead of arguing with him for 15 minutes. Something doesn’t quite add up there just reading between the lines.

 

[NoSugarNoCream]

Yeah, I really don’t understand why if she is planning on getting a vaccine and has no problem with it she didn’t just say “yeah I’m planning on getting it” instead of arguing with him for 15 minutes. Something doesn’t quite add up there just reading between the lines.

She absolutely was on the defensive due to the owner’s interaction with the other employee. And just for the record, I never said she was planning on getting it, just that she doesn’t have an issue with the vaccine (like being an antivaxer or something). She felt that her views on getting the vaccine or not getting the vaccine should be private, since at her job, it’s not mandatory to receive it.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

The only logical reason I can come up with in my head on why most of the replies here are on the bosses side is because it’s about getting the Covid vaccine and not about any other medical decision.
We are all so desperate to get back to normal and are hoping that most people will get the vaccine so that can happen that we are crossing lines that shouldn’t be crossed.

Would you feel the same way if the bosses question was. are you planning on getting on birth control?

I don’t think that’s it. And I wouldn’t necessarily say people are “on the boss’s side”. My thoughts about the daughter were, first, her workplace reputation. Leaving early when rattled, recording conversations, going to corporate in first weeks on job - sure, they work in the moment, but don’t really work well long term, IMO&E. (Picking battles with the latter, of course.)

Personally, I respect a person’s right to become vaccinated or not. I know how I’ve felt being forced to take a vaccine (influenza). But I think there’s a better way to go about negotiating issues like these issues in today’s workplace and climate, and some of the pp’s have given good examples of how.

I do agree that employers want to be able to offer a safe environment to their customers. We still have a lot of people not vaccinated or reluctant to do things like go out for a haircut. The boss likely had good intentions, but probably went about it the wrong way. Maybe he should’ve gotten creative with incentives instead. He was wrong to argue with employees out in the open for more than 15 minutes. Maybe he feels bad about that, who knows. (What about a follow-up conversation with him about it?) But I think this is a teaching moment for your daughter. Unless she wants to take the recording to corporate and try to get him fired or something. (Which certainly is something we see a lot of today.)

 

[Kestryl]

The owner shouldn’t be discussing others’ medical history in front of (or in earshot of) others.

If someone doesn’t immediately say they have gotten or plan on getting the vaccine, I would assume that that person does not plan on getting it and they don’t want to admit it.

My employer has been asking us to self-report our vaccination status, as it changes our quarantine options if we are exposed. (Vaccinated- tested once and allowed on site if negative. Unvaccinated- tested multiple times, banned from site for at least seven days even with a negative test.) They assume that an employee is unvaccinated unless otherwise told.

 

[NotUrsula]

This is one of those situations where the letter of the law is on her side, but the cost of insisting on it would likely be very high. Time to learn a valuable lesson about picking your battles, and frankly, this time, with this particular decision, it is not worth it.

It's an infectious disease, and a job with customer contact. Vaccination is known to slow the spread and minimize the symptoms, and it is extremely likely that certain classes of employers, including this one, will be allowed to require this particular vaccine once it obtains full approval, which will not be long from now, as it is being so widely used that the data can be gathered exponentially more quickly than is usual.

So, answer is, go get a vaccine ASAP, and provide proof to her manager. The owner is unlikely to try to have her fired on these grounds because his lawyer will tell him it's a bad idea, but it's almost a sure bet that unless he's a known blowhard who always forgets confrontations like these as soon as they end, then he will come back at her with a different set of grounds that is much harder to argue with (and that she does not have an audio of.) MUCH better to get her manager on her side with proof that she's vaccinated. Besides that, in most US states the employee at will doctrine applies, and he probably really doesn't even need a reason to demand that the manager fire her.

It's all well and good to fall back on the FLSA and all of the corollaries to it, but the harsh reality is that unless the employer's behavior is demonstrably criminal, complaints like this are only likely to succeed when you are pretty high up the corporate ladder and have some reputational clout behind you. At the start of your career (or for a part-time student job) it's an insanely bad idea to take something like this up the ladder in a franchise company. As a PP noted, she has now demonstrated unreliability by getting upset and leaving early. She should either quit the job with the required notice if she thinks the place is toxic, or suck it up, get the jab, and chalk it up to a learning experience.

FWIW, my employer, while not yet requiring it, is STRONGLY ENCOURAGING covid vaccination, and asking us to send in copies of our vaccination proof to be added to the personnel file. The message is clear, and only a fool would fight it unless they had a truly valid documented medical reason to refuse.

 

[luvthatduke]

I think your DD's mistake was engaging the boss after hearing him with the other employee.
When he approached her your DD she should have said,
"If/When corporate announces the protocol,
and if the vaccine is required, I will talk to you about it then."

I also think she'd better not tell anyone else that she recorded her boss.
It's one thing if your state has penalties,
but it's another thing if corporate has rules (my DH's company has very strict rules).
She could very well lose her job, and it won't be over the vaccine.

 

[NoSugarNoCream]

I truly appreciate everyone’s responses and thank you all for your frankness and kindness. . I will relay this information to her, with hopes that everything sinks in and she can move forward in a productive way.

 

[Karin1984]

I might be an exception, but I think she did all the right things and she was very wise to record it and to talk to someone about hostile environments. As I read the first message, it wasn't the topic, it was the tone.

Hostile environments are very hard to prove and recording it was a good step. Not shout it of the rooftops or use it as blackmail with the manager at fault, but to have it as a back up if it comes up with HR.

 

[Welsh_Dragon]

All your posts, other than one, appear to be about employment law. I think that your family should join a Union.

 

[slo]

Sadly this is the new debate for people to bully others about.
It‘s sad that people can’t respect other people’s choices.

If your DD is an at-will employee, which she probably is, if she complains then the owner could terminate her employment over something trivial just to get rid of her. This is a very slippery slope for your DD - I feel bad for her. If it were my DD, I would tell her to keep working, and hope that the owner doesn’t keep berating her over the vaccine - hopefully the conversation was a one and done. i would also encourage my DD to start looking for another job in case the owner starts berating her again. She may find something she likes better - who knows. Good luck to your DD - she doesn’t deserve this stress.