*** Updated to add spring break Data*** New Data, FP+ impacting wait times, discuss

[Angel Ariel]

If you could go back to FP-, but all guests were to start using it as much as you did -- would you be happy with that?

yes.

 

[FlipHipster]

Wait, what? People have an opinion of FP+ and they haven't even tried it?

haha. FWIW, (not accusing Disney of this) but there are companies you can hire that will flood the net with positive "reviews" of your goods and services.

Finally finished reading the Feb. Earnings results. Sounds like MM+ is goose that laid the golden egg for Parks and Resorts.

Didn't listen today , waiting for the transcripts much easier to read that stuff than listen to it...

 

[MrInfinity]

If you could go back to FP-, but all guests were to start using it as much as you did -- would you be happy with that?

yes.

Alright, so if this was the case. Say Soarin handles 17,000 riders. And a typical day at Epcot sees 38,000 visitors. (http://crooksinwdw.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/theoreticaloperational-hourly-ride-capacity-at-wdw/) If all visitors used FP-, you would get no more out of it than you do FP+! Here's why:

Think of it like this: You would show up. You would have the choice to rope drop Soarin or get in line for a FP-. If you grab a FP before you ride, it will be for an early morning slot. Then you could go ride standby. If you ride standby, you could probly grab a FP after you're done, but it'll be for afternoon.

By the time the afternoon slot rolls around, all FPs for TT will have been taken (because there are only 13,000 possible ridings of TT in a day, and all 38,000 guests have arrived and attempted to pull a FP for TT or Soarin).

Now before you say "that's not true, most guests don't tour that way!" That's my whole point! FP- was so awesome for you because most guests did not use it. But if they did, 38,000 guests pulling FP- for Soarin (which only handles 17,000 riders) and TT (13,000 riders) would consume all the FP- tickets, and you would only get to pull one of them. You would be able to get a MS, or a Nemo, but not both Soarin and TT.

Thus -- FP- in which everyone used it is exactly FP+ only, with FP+ having a few extra benefits like picking your ticket from home.

It is not the change from FP- to FP+ that is causing you to get on fewer rides... it is the change from a FP system that most ppl did not use and which left a few guests getting all the benefit and riding multiple times, to a similar system that now all guests are using. Since all guests are using it, there is only 1 headliner for each guest.

Do the math:
* 38,000 visitors.
* 17,000 can ride Soarin
* 13,000 can ride TT

Clearly there is not enough ridings for everyone to get one, even combining TT and Soarin into a single pool.

So my point is rather than claim FP+ is so bad -- what the real gripe should be is that Disney made a system that is so much more useable that everyone is now using it. Your gripe is really with the fact that more people are getting the Fast Passes that you used to get more exclusively for yourself.

 

[xie]

--snip--
Do the math:
* 38,000 visitors.
* 17,000 can ride Soarin
* 13,000 can ride TT

Clearly there is not enough ridings for everyone to get one, even combining TT and Soarin into a single pool.

So my point is rather than claim FP+ is so bad -- what the real gripe should be is that Disney made a system that is so much more useable that everyone is now using it. Your gripe is really with the fact that more people are getting the Fast Passes that you used to get more exclusively for yourself.

Actually, I think the true gripe is that Disney hasn't kept up with parks development. They will happily let as many people in the door as want to enter (provided the fire marshal approves, I guess), regardless of whether they can truly accommodate them all, or not.

As in, making the Castle forecourt area larger is nice, I guess, but they would be providing far better long-term service to customers if they simply added more e-ticket rides. They could have built a lot of rides for the billion dollars that MM+ cost alone.

 

[Davey Jones II]

You know, this whole 3<6 therefore FP+ is worse than FP- argument keeps being made... yet it's totally flawed. Let me ask you this:

If you could go back to FP-, but all guests were to start using it as much as you did -- would you be happy with that?

Definitely. That would still be a lot better than FP+. We also wouldn't have to put up with slow moving fast pass lines, frequently slowed down by the clunky process of holding the MB just so until the Mickey scanner lights up green.

 

[mom2rtk]

Definitely. That would still be a lot better than FP+. We also wouldn't have to put up with slow moving fast pass lines, frequently slowed down by the clunky process of holding the MB just so to make the Mickey head light up green.

Yep. Definitely sign me up. It would still be better.

 

[KatieCharlotte]

Alright, so if this was the case. Say Soarin handles 17,000 riders. And a typical day at Epcot sees 38,000 visitors. (http://crooksinwdw.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/theoreticaloperational-hourly-ride-capacity-at-wdw/) If all visitors used FP-, you would get no more out of it than you do FP+! Here's why:

Think of it like this: You would show up. You would have the choice to rope drop Soarin or get in line for a FP-. If you grab a FP before you ride, it will be for an early morning slot. Then you could go ride standby. If you ride standby, you could probly grab a FP after you're done, but it'll be for afternoon.

By the time the afternoon slot rolls around, all FPs for TT will have been taken (because there are only 13,000 possible ridings of TT in a day, and all 38,000 guests have arrived and attempted to pull a FP for TT or Soarin).

Now before you say "that's not true, most guests don't tour that way!" That's my whole point! FP- was so awesome for you because most guests did not use it. But if they did, 38,000 guests pulling FP- for Soarin (which only handles 17,000 riders) and TT (13,000 riders) would consume all the FP- tickets, and you would only get to pull one of them. You would be able to get a MS, or a Nemo, but not both Soarin and TT.

Thus -- FP- in which everyone used it is exactly FP+ only, with FP+ having a few extra benefits like picking your ticket from home.

It is not the change from FP- to FP+ that is causing you to get on fewer rides... it is the change from a FP system that most ppl did not use and which left a few guests getting all the benefit and riding multiple times, to a similar system that now all guests are using. Since all guests are using it, there is only 1 headliner for each guest.

Do the math:
* 38,000 visitors.
* 17,000 can ride Soarin
* 13,000 can ride TT

Clearly there is not enough ridings for everyone to get one, even combining TT and Soarin into a single pool.

So my point is rather than claim FP+ is so bad -- what the real gripe should be is that Disney made a system that is so much more useable that everyone is now using it. Your gripe is really with the fact that more people are getting the Fast Passes that you used to get more exclusively for yourself.

No, my gripe is that Disney made FP+ instead of making more rides at Epcot and DHS to divert interest from Soarin', TT, and TSMM and make all guests happier. If Disney thought that demand would still remain too high for TSMM and Soarin', both rides could easily be doubled and the problem would be solved. Even people who never used legacy FP are frustrated with the tiers, which are necessary because Disney did not actually solve the capacity < demand problem.

My gripe is also that there is currently little flexibility. I can't get a FP for Maelstrom and Soarin'. I can't get two FP for Buzz even if my DS can't ride the mountains and wants to beat his high score. I can't use zero FP on one MK day because I'm coming for the parades and Wishes, and then six the next day when I want to ride for fourteen hours straight. My kids can't just say, "Hey, mom, I feel like I can ride BTMRR today. Let's grab FP." I can't count on family favorites like HM, IASW, and PotC being quick lines all day. It's about so much more than being "super-riders," which we are not.

I won't pick apart your example, but as a quick correction, I didn't have to wait until my afternoon slot to get another FP because I only had to wait two hours or when my FP time started, whichever came first.

 

[2Tiggies]

Clearly there is not enough ridings for everyone to get one, even combining TT and Soarin into a single pool.

So my point is rather than claim FP+ is so bad -- what the real gripe should be is that Disney made a system that is so much more useable that everyone is now using it. Your gripe is really with the fact that more people are getting the Fast Passes that you used to get more exclusively for yourself.

Ok, so not all guests tour this way as you pointed out, but in addition to that, not all guests want to ride Soarin or TT and the big thing for me is that FP+ has generated this urgency that you have to use FP+ now, unlike with FP- where many people knew about it and chose not to use it. I am not saying that everyone does have to use FP to be able to enjoy a park day, but there is definitely an increased feeling of needing to plan and less assurance in just turning up and taking a chance.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Actually, I think the true gripe is that Disney hasn't kept up with parks development. They will happily let as many people in the door as want to enter (provided the fire marshal approves, I guess), regardless of whether they can truly accommodate them all, or not.

As in, making the Castle forecourt area larger is nice, I guess, but they would be providing far better long-term service to customers if they simply added more e-ticket rides. They could have built a lot of rides for the billion dollars that MM+ cost alone.

So true, and we keep coming back to this point because it continues to be the elephant in the room.

Funny how Universal didn't bother with this kind of RFID crap, and instead simply announced that they would invest $500,000,000 per year on new rides. That's what it's all about, folks. Sometimes I actually find myself wondering if the Disney parks division truly understands the business they're in. Why get caught up with tech bells and whistles when the parks simply don't have the ride capacity to handle the crowds?

 

[Angel Ariel]

Alright, so if this was the case. Say Soarin handles 17,000 riders. And a typical day at Epcot sees 38,000 visitors. (http://crooksinwdw.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/theoreticaloperational-hourly-ride-capacity-at-wdw/) If all visitors used FP-, you would get no more out of it than you do FP+! Here's why:

Think of it like this: You would show up. You would have the choice to rope drop Soarin or get in line for a FP-. If you grab a FP before you ride, it will be for an early morning slot. Then you could go ride standby. If you ride standby, you could probly grab a FP after you're done, but it'll be for afternoon.

By the time the afternoon slot rolls around, all FPs for TT will have been taken (because there are only 13,000 possible ridings of TT in a day, and all 38,000 guests have arrived and attempted to pull a FP for TT or Soarin).

Now before you say "that's not true, most guests don't tour that way!" That's my whole point! FP- was so awesome for you because most guests did not use it. But if they did, 38,000 guests pulling FP- for Soarin (which only handles 17,000 riders) and TT (13,000 riders) would consume all the FP- tickets, and you would only get to pull one of them. You would be able to get a MS, or a Nemo, but not both Soarin and TT.

Thus -- FP- in which everyone used it is exactly FP+ only, with FP+ having a few extra benefits like picking your ticket from home.

It is not the change from FP- to FP+ that is causing you to get on fewer rides... it is the change from a FP system that most ppl did not use and which left a few guests getting all the benefit and riding multiple times, to a similar system that now all guests are using. Since all guests are using it, there is only 1 headliner for each guest.

Do the math:
* 38,000 visitors.
* 17,000 can ride Soarin
* 13,000 can ride TT

Clearly there is not enough ridings for everyone to get one, even combining TT and Soarin into a single pool.

So my point is rather than claim FP+ is so bad -- what the real gripe should be is that Disney made a system that is so much more useable that everyone is now using it. Your gripe is really with the fact that more people are getting the Fast Passes that you used to get more exclusively for yourself.

You know what is really irksome? When you disagree with someone and they respond as though you don't understand what they're saying. There really isn't anything more condescending than that.

Your conclusion (bolded) is faulty. You're assuming that my main gripe with FP+ is the limit of 3. Far more of an issue for me is the lack of flexibility, the inability to park hop, and the artificial limitations.

I don't have an issue with FPs running out because so many more people are using them. If I did, I wouldn't have spent time on every vacation talking to/encouraging people about how to use FPs in the first place. There's a difference between not being able to get FPs because they're just all gone for the day and not being able to get FPs that are still remaining because Disney has said you've reached your limit for the day.

My issues with FP+ also aren't related to the 3 main attractions that were issues with FP- (TT, Soarin', TSMM). If I rode each once on a trip, I was happy. I actually missed TT once, and I didn't care . TSMM/Soarin'/TT just aren't more important to me than the rest of the experience in the park. My issue with FP+ is that DH and I can't both get FPs for Space and Thunder (or say, Space and the Mine Train), and then ALSO get FPs for Buzz & Ariel (rides which rarely ran out of FP-, due to the high capacity nature of omnimovers), or Pooh, Dumbo, etc which we can ride with our daughter.

When i say it's the artificial limitation I don't like, I say it because, under FP+, these rides could potentially have unused FP slots throughout the day and it doesn't matter, there is no more than 3 allowed. Yes, yes, I get that SB should then move faster, but a 0-5 min wait (w/FP) is still faster than a 20 min SB one (and aside from early in the day or during a parade, you don't generally see most of those rides with less than 20 min SB waits). Most of those rides did not run out of FP-, even towards the end of the night. And if they did? I'd feel the same way as I do about TSMM or Soarin' running out - if they're out, they're out...no big deal.

Not being able to get a FP because they're all gone and not being able to get one because Disney says you can't are different things, IMO.

 

[tj4disney]

Not being able to get a FP because they're all gone and not being able to get one because Disney says you can't are different things, IMO.

Agreed. I've discussed ad nauseum with my co-worker, and at it's core our beef is that Disney removing options/freedom for park goers.

Under FP-, anybody could tour the way I did. Many did not. Under FP+, nobody has that choice anymore...it's a removal of options.

To the question of what would happen if everybody used FP- the way I did...sure, while it would stink, the options are still all there for everybody. So I would have been ok with that...at least it would have happened within free market principles, rather than trying to be forced. In fact, my co-worker and I have often wondered why Disney just didn't do an all out blitz on FP-. Seems as though they are investing alot of manpower to educate on FP+...why not do that with FP-, and let the market fall where it may? I think the answer goes to other threads about the ultimate goal of FP+, which as near as I can figure is to try to ensure everybody has an "average" experience.

 

[OtherScott]

You know what is really irksome? When you disagree with someone and they respond as though you don't understand what they're saying. There really isn't anything more condescending than that. Your conclusion (bolded) is faulty. You're assuming that my main gripe with FP+ is the limit of 3. Far more of an issue for me is the lack of flexibility, the inability to park hop, and the artificial limitations. I don't have an issue with FPs running out because so many more people are using them. If I did, I wouldn't have spent time on every vacation talking to/encouraging people about how to use FPs in the first place. There's a difference between not being able to get FPs because they're just all gone for the day and not being able to get FPs that are still remaining because Disney has said you've reached your limit for the day. My issues with FP+ also aren't related to the 3 main attractions that were issues with FP- (TT, Soarin', TSMM). If I rode each once on a trip, I was happy. I actually missed TT once, and I didn't care . TSMM/Soarin'/TT just aren't more important to me than the rest of the experience in the park. My issue with FP+ is that DH and I can't both get FPs for Space and Thunder (or say, Space and the Mine Train), and then ALSO get FPs for Buzz & Ariel (rides which rarely ran out of FP-, due to the high capacity nature of omnimovers), or Pooh, Dumbo, etc which we can ride with our daughter. When i say it's the artificial limitation I don't like, I say it because, under FP+, these rides could potentially have unused FP slots throughout the day and it doesn't matter, there is no more than 3 allowed. Yes, yes, I get that SB should then move faster, but a 0-5 min wait (w/FP) is still faster than a 20 min SB one (and aside from early in the day or during a parade, you don't generally see most of those rides with less than 20 min SB waits). Most of those rides did not run out of FP-, even towards the end of the night. And if they did? I'd feel the same way as I do about TSMM or Soarin' running out - if they're out, they're out...no big deal. Not being able to get a FP because they're all gone and not being able to get one because Disney says you can't are different things, IMO.

You've hit on what is now a bug - artificial limitation. It's intentional and for now, necessary. I believe it is a also temporary.

Disney has to build this on static models. If you think they're taking a PR hit now, imagine what would happen if they had to dial it back!

Once they are able use hard numbers on use, timing and follow-thru to build dynamic models, I believe more FPs will be freed up for same day at least, and probably for prebook based on some other qualifier. Yes, we'll probably be disappointed when that qualifier turns out to financial.

None of this helps anyone deal with disappointment today, but I see the potential for something better than foot races of the past. We shall see.

 

[Angel Ariel]

You've hit on what is now a bug - artificial limitation. It's intentional and for now, necessary. I believe it is a also temporary.

Disney has to build this on static models. If you think they're taking a PR hit now, imagine what would happen if they had to dial it back!

Once they are able use hard numbers on use, timing and follow-thru to build dynamic models, I believe more FPs will be freed up for same day at least, and probably for prebook based on some other qualifier. Yes, we'll probably be disappointed when that qualifier turns out to financial.

None of this helps anyone deal with disappointment today, but I see the potential for something better than foot races of the past. We shall see.

It's essential...for prebooking. They could have just taken the same rules that existed for FP- and applied them to FP+ with one key change - the allowing of booking all FPs from any kiosk. FPs don't become available until you're in a park, you get one FP+ at a time and can book another either after your window opens, or 2 hrs passes- whichever comes first. You could still utilize MDE for booking FP+ (app could require the GPS showing you're in a park before allowing access to the FP+ system), and you still change the kiosks so that any FP+ ride could be booked from any kiosk.

However, doing that would not allow them to "lock guests in" to their Disney days, which they've stated is the reason for prebooking. Prebooking and FP+ isn't at all about ride satisfaction. as others have pointed out, they could have accomplished that with a similar information blitz that they're doing for FP+.

 

[Shaden]

You know, this whole 3<6 therefore FP+ is worse than FP- argument keeps being made... yet it's totally flawed. Let me ask you this:

If you could go back to FP-, but all guests were to start using it as much as you did -- would you be happy with that?

Yes. I want flexibility and fairness. Of course, I would still end up with more FP than people who were not arriving at RD and spending fourteen+ hours in the parks.

Absolutely agree, yes I would go back to it in an instant.

I could go to the park I wanted, when I wanted, pull FPs as I wanted and as they were NEEDED.

 

[flicx]

So true, and we keep coming back to this point because it continues to be the elephant in the room.

Funny how Universal didn't bother with this kind of RFID crap, and instead simply announced that they would invest $500,000,000 per year on new rides. That's what it's all about, folks. Sometimes I actually find myself wondering if the Disney parks division truly understands the business they're in. Why get caught up with tech bells and whistles when the parks simply don't have the ride capacity to handle the crowds?

I totally concur. It is so simple yet we get this MM system instead of three straight years of 500 million dollar rides! I really think universal is gonna close the gap the next few years on Disney. I'll also bet their number of guests will increase far more than Disney Worlds!

 

[WillAustin]

Absolutely agree, yes I would go back to it in an instant.

I could go to the park I wanted, when I wanted, pull FPs as I wanted and as they were NEEDED.

I agree. I'd go back to the old way even if it meant all FPs were gone by noon.

 

[JimmyV]

Alright, so if this was the case. Say Soarin handles 17,000 riders. And a typical day at Epcot sees 38,000 visitors. (http://crooksinwdw.wordpress.com/2013/12/14/theoreticaloperational-hourly-ride-capacity-at-wdw/) If all visitors used FP-, you would get no more out of it than you do FP+! Here's why:

Think of it like this: You would show up. You would have the choice to rope drop Soarin or get in line for a FP-. If you grab a FP before you ride, it will be for an early morning slot. Then you could go ride standby. If you ride standby, you could probly grab a FP after you're done, but it'll be for afternoon.

By the time the afternoon slot rolls around, all FPs for TT will have been taken (because there are only 13,000 possible ridings of TT in a day, and all 38,000 guests have arrived and attempted to pull a FP for TT or Soarin).

This simply isn't right. Your entire premise is that one cannot get a FP for both Soarin' and TT. But it's easy. You are forgetting an important feature of FP-. When you pulled a FP, your next one was available either 2 hours after that or immediately after your FP return time. In your example, you suggest that a person had a choice of either pulling a Soarin' FP (which would get them an early return time), or ride first, then pull a FP and get an afternoon return time. The person who pulled a FP first would be eligible for their TT Fast Pass very early in the day. There is no way that all of the TT Fast Passes would have been disseminated by the time your Soarin' return time kicked in. So the person who pulls the early FP could easily get a TT Fast Pass. If you assume a return time of around 10:00-10:30, FPs for TT would still be available then. Net result: a RD ride on Soarin', a FP ride on Soarin' and a FP ride on TT.

And the person who rode Soarin' first and then pulled a FP would get a return time that wasn't too far out in time. You suggest it would be in the afternoon, but that wasn't the case. You seem to think that if everyone used FP-, then more passes would be issued earlier. But this isn't true. The machines could only spit out passes so fast, and the old system was pretty much maxed out. So a person pulling a FP at 9:30 under the old system would get the same return time as a person pulling one under a system used by all 38,000 people. Remember that not all 38,000 people are in the park fighting for FPs at 9:30. Under either approach, the machines would be spitting them out at the same rate with the same return time. Or close to it. When you pulled a FP for Soarin' at 9:30, at worst your window for the TT Fast Pass would be 11:30 and one would be available. Remember that everyone in the park is in your same boat. Every person who pulled a FP for Soarin' has to wait just like you. It's not like they are all running over to TT using up all those FPs. And there simply wouldn't be enough people in the park at 9:00-10:00 to burn through all the FPs for both rides by 10:30 even if half went straight to Soarin' and the other half went straight to TT.

The only difference between a system with half the people using FP- and one with everyone using it is that the people who arrive latest to the park would get shut out. Early arrivers would get FPs for both headliners. The crowd on this board is heavily weighted toward those who would arrive early and get both FPs.

 

[Mad Hattered]

yes.

I concur. I'm not trying to sound fancy and all, either. And Angel's follow up response hits home as well. Just picture two adults with no children who can live without Soarin', TSMM or "Peter Pan" (to take your place at TT).

My favorite part was "what if Disney forced every visitor to use FP-". Can you imagine the backlash if THAT were the case??

 

[Planogirl]

You know, this whole 3<6 therefore FP+ is worse than FP- argument keeps being made... yet it's totally flawed. Let me ask you this:

If you could go back to FP-, but all guests were to start using it as much as you did -- would you be happy with that?

Without going past your post, my answer is yes!

I don't want to preplan - we don't even always know what park we're going to in the mornings. I want to wander where we wish and gets fastpasses for whatever we're in the mood for at the moment. I don't want to fool with smartphones and Disney's fussy app any more than we have to! Even if we only have access to 3 fastpasses, I want the old flexibility back.

 

[Planogirl]

I will just add that I'd like to be able to ride certain things more than once. If the parks are busy, I'd like to ride Star Tours more than once to see different scenarios and maybe Buzz more than once to better our scores. I'd gladly skip the top rides to get fastpasses for those rides more than once but Disney won't let us.