*** Updated to add spring break Data*** New Data, FP+ impacting wait times, discuss

Not just "not all guests tour this way"... but seriously MOST guest do not tour this way. Think about it... If you used to pull 3 FP to TT in one day... How many people do you feel did that? 2000? If even that? If 2000 people pull 3 each, that is 6000 FP. TT only gives out a total of 9000 in a day! So if 2000 ppl pull 3, 1000 pull 2, and 1000 pull 1, that is all 9000 FPs taken by approximately 4000 people. That means the other 34,000 people visiting Epcot that day did not use FP for TT at all! It was extremely disproportionately unused.



It's not creating a sense of urgency. That is only the perception out here among the tiny subset of society that is disboards. The other rest of the world is using the app just fine. Simple fact is most people did want to ride Soarin or Test Track. They just never used FP-. Now, from the comfort of their home they are playing with their Mickey App as easily as they would play Candy Crush or Angry Birds and they're queuing up rides. It is so awesome in just how easy Disney made it to pick rides that everyone is doing it not out of obligation or having to schedule, but simply because it is really cool.

Because FP+ is so good, and so easy to use by everyone makes it so much less useful to you (and me) as individuals who used to essentially monopolize FP-.

It's not because Disney has ruined it -- it's that they've removed the inconvenience, difficulty, and general disinterest in using it that existed before, and now it's used by everyone.

I found it easier to walk to FP machines to collect my FP's than to try and co ordinate a trip months out where I have to decide what park I am going to be at, what I am going to ride, what time I have to stay there until to get those rides and trying to pick times and attractions on some days when meeting friends from offsite so that they have a chance to get them because we are going for formerly less popular attractions and hoping we chose less convenient times.

Disney is not dictating it. Other guests are. Other guests are taking the FastPasses now, so there is only 1 available for you to ride Soarin or Test Track.

38,000 guests.
17,000 Soarin rides.
13,000 TT rides.

Clearly there is not enough for you and others to get multiples, except at the expense of others getting none.

You were fine with others getting none in FP-. You didn't care about the "others". Now those "others" are using FastPass so you have fewer options. Disney is not limiting you. The other guests are.

Other guests are now planning because they are being told to. Not all of them want to. Even people who didn't care about the headliners are now feeling they need to select FP's for the day just in case.

Limits aside, having to preschedule is not my idea of vacation. It's fine if others like it but I don't. It feels restrictive and too much like work to me.

::yes:: And this is what it comes down to in the pre-trip stage. Planning is great. I want to sit with my daughter and look forward to what we are going to do on the upcoming trip, not decide when, what day and what time.
 
I am truly happy that fp+ works better for your personal touring style.

That said, I would seriously appreciate if the rude stereotyping of how those who don't like fp+ tour would stop. The bolded is not how we toured. Not even remotely.

Rude? No its very honest when looking at how many people here tour/toured. So how did you tour that makes FP not ok for your family?

You dont have to plan everything in one shot. You can plan when you get there . It allows that. I don't see the "problems" people claim they are having as real problems OTHER than the amount. I agree more than three should be given to people or three lower tier 2 upper. heck give onsite 10, everyone else 5!
 
But the bottom line of those complaints, is that they don't want to wait. Not really anything more. Yes the system is buggy so were smartphones when they first started now most run seamlessly. People need something to complain about because change is hard.

Every single statement you make in this post is 100% wrong except the part about the system being buggy.
 
I love how it's always, "Well you just don't want to wait! So get over it!" Yeah, sorry but no. I am a very patient person and know theme parks come with line waits. However, I don't want my theme park experience to come with a schedule more structured than my high school days.

It's not about the fact I might have to wait in some lines that I don't like FP+, it's the whole "locked in", pre-plan, fill in the graph scheduling aspect. It's a theme park, I shouldn't need a chart or an app.

I get why some people love it, and awesome for them, but for me, it doesn't work. I love Disney, but not in this way.
 

Sorry, but you are the one who is missing the point (and the math) here. The reason that my explanation looks like the way it was is because even if everyone used FP-, there would be no visible change over the way it used to be in the early morning hours of the park. It is your math that needs re-tooling. You seem to believe that all 38,000 people would teleport themselves into the park at exactly the same time, and all people would be in all places at the same time. But people would trickle in, and the early arrivers would get the same experience under either the "half use it" or the "all use it" scenario.

If you arrived at RD and pulled a FP for Soarin' at 9:05, your return time would be around 10:00 and at that time you would get a FP for TT. This wouldn't change irrespective of the intent of the other 37,999 people. It doesn't matter if 20,000 people or 38,000 people want to use FP-. In order for them to impede my process, they have to be ahead of me. The people who make RD will get early FPs for Attraction A, and will be first in line to get their second Fast Pass at Attraction B. The only way that their plan can be foiled is if enough people forego a FP at Attraction A and go straight to Attraction B to get a FP there, draining that system dry. And here is where your math fails you. There simply cannot be enough people arriving at the park early in the day to go to Attraction B to drain that system dry. Remember that I am ahead of all (or most of) the people who pulled a FP for Attraction A. Thus, my window for my second FP opens before theirs so they cannot leap frog me. Assuming that I get to the second FP machine 2 or 3 minutes before that window opens up, few of the people who also pulled a FP for Attraction A can beat me to the punch. So the only people who can stop me from getting the second FP at around 10:00-10:30 are people who go straight to Attraction B to get a FP there. The machines simply could not spit out 13,000 FP in an hour, even assuming that 13,000 people lined up to get them. And that would never happen. Sure, 38,000 people might go to Epcot on the day in question. But how many will be in the park by 10:30? 20,000 tops? There is simply no way that 20,000 people can drain two major attractions dry in an hour, even if every person intends to use FP-.

Your "math" presupposes an the system's unlimited ability to dispense FPs. But there are physical limitations which prevent the well from running dry in half an hour. It is very much like the "American Idol" voting phenomenon. No matter how disparate the two finalists are in talent, when the voting was done solely by phone, the vote was always 49.5% to 50.5% or thereabouts. Why? Because of the physical limitation of the phone system. 10,000,000 people might have been in "phone queue A" to vote for contestant "A", and 7,000,000 people were in the "phone queue B" to vote for contestant "B". But if each line of the phone system could only process 1,000 calls an hour, at the end of 100 hours of voting, contestant A would have 100,000 votes and contestant B would have 100,000 votes. A virtual tie. But that does not reveal the true nature of how people wanted to vote. So too with Fast Pass. It doesn't matter if 38,000 people wanted to use FP- or 20,000 people wanted to use it. In the early hours of the park's operation, the same number of Fast Passes would be disseminated in the first 90 minutes of operation unless Disney brought in 5 times as many machines to spit out tickets. As long as you got a FP for the more popular attraction first, you will get one for the second most popular attraction.

We don't need to look any further than TSM to see this in action. That is the only ride at WDW where a legitimate queue ever developed for a FP. As popular as Soarin, Space Mountain, Everest, Rock-n-Roller Coaster, et al. are, you never had to wait behind more than 4 or 5 people to get a FP for any of those rides. So let's doouble the entusiasm for FP- and now you'd have to wait behind 8-10 people. That wouldn't shut you out. But let's get back to TSM because that is where the line developed. If there was 100% interest in getting a FP for that ride, it is absolutely possible that someone who went to RnR first, rode that ride, then went to ToT and rode that ride, and then got in line for a FP for TSM could get into such a god-awful long line that they would get shut out. I will absolutely grant you that. So what would be the solution? Go there first. Everyone who decided to go to TSM first to get a FP would get one as long as they were among the first 15,000 people through the turnstile. Early arivers would get what they wanted. So now you have your FP for that ride and are shut out from getting another FP for two hours. But so is everyone else. Who is going to stop you from getting your FP for RnR? No one, because they also have a TSM FP and are shut out for two hours. The only way this fails is if 15,000 people arrive early at DHS, decide not to get a FP for TSM, and instead queue up for a FP at RnR and drain the system dry in 2 hours. That could not happen and would not happen. That would require 30,000 people all pasisng through the turnstiles at RD. Never happen. Even if 30,000 people arrived for RD, there still has to be an orderly queue of people getting through bag check and the turnstiles. The first people in the park would probably have their 2 FPs in hand before the 25,000th person actually go in the park. Sort of like the people who start at the back of the pack at the New York Marathon. The race starts for all people at the same time, but the people at the back tak an full hour just to get off the Verazzano Bridge. The people at the back of Rope Drop are simply not going to be grabbing FPs to the detriment of the earlier arrivers.

The whole point to FP+ is to offer a level playing field for later arrivers, park hoppers and people who want to do something else with their day at 9:00 a.m.. But there is no argument that one can posit and prove that would show that FP- wasn't better for Rope Droppers. Would 38,000 people trying to use FP- make FPs harder to get at 2:00 p.m.? Sure. Would it make more rides run out? Sure. But it wouldn't make TSM run out any earlier. Its machines were already maxed out. As long as you were one of the first 15,000 people in line to get a FP, and it took 2 hours to dispense 15,000 passes, then the same 15,000 people would get one and they would get theirs in the same 2 hour span. The fact that the line is longer doesn't make the machines spit out the tickets any faster. So before you might have had 20,000 people in line to get 15,000 FPs and 15,000 got them and 5,000 people were disappointed. If 38,000 people lined up for 15,000 FPs, those same 15,000 would still get them and you would have 23,000 disappointed people. You have increased the number of disappointed people, but you have not altered the touring of the 15,000 people who got their precious FP. As long as you commit to being one of the first 15,000 people you get your FP and then move on to the next attraction. Does all of this look the same as the way things were? Absolutely, as long as you are an early arriver. And that is the whole point. The first person in the park cannot have a different experience if there are 10 people behind them, 15,000 people behind them or 38,000 people behind them. The number of people behind you does not alter the view that you have ahead of you.

Wonderful points. Now pretend all guests tour like you. Like I originally asserted. Pretend they all show up at rope drop and try to pull a FP to Soarin or TT like you. All the FP- would immediately be gone. Therefore the old system benefitted you significantly only because as you point out -- most people did not do this. Even if they wanted to -- the logistics of getting 13000 ppl to the TT machine before 10am would be tough. But let me tell ya something... because of this wonderful new internet thingy -- they CAN. They can get all 38000 guests thru a FastPass kiosk with never having to leave their home. So FP+ is exactly the system in which all 38,000 guests now CAN -- and are choosing to -- pull a FP to the headliner rides -- as quickly or quicker than you even.
 
But the bottom line of those complaints, is that they don't want to wait. Not really anything more. Yes the system is buggy so were smartphones when they first started now most run seamlessly. People need something to complain about because change is hard.
I doubt that anyone out there is sitting there feeling excited because "I get to wait!" :rotfl:

That aside, that is NOT what everyone is complaining about. That is the truth. Of course some people don't like it (I admit that I don't) but there is a lot more to this than you seem to know.
 
/
Are you kidding? I have to now plan each day in advance whereas we used to be able to change our minds and know that whatever park we went to, if we got there early we could ride whatever we wanted to. Its the scheduling (and on a poorly functioning app) that is bothering me more right now than the lack of or extra FP's

You can still do that. I don't see the problem. I would love to help you. I'm just saying your issue is non existent because you can still do your normal plan. HOW you do it may be different but not the end result.
 
I love Disney, but not in this way.

Does this mean that you will not return? I'm truly curious about this. It goes to a conversation I was having on here with some fellow DISers the other day.

I'm also curious why those who are so dissatisfied by this change that they say they'll curtail their Disney vacationing keep coming back to an unofficial Disney board to discuss.

Not saying that you are - just asking the question - but if I was truly DONE with Disney because of this, I'd plan other vacations in its place and certainly bail on DISboards. But everyone is different, of course...
 
No no no -- it was easy only because most other ppl did not tour like you. My question to you was if you would like FP- if all other park guests used it as effectively as you did.



Again you're telling me about how it was whereas my question to you was if you would like FP- if everyone else did in fact use it as well as you.



You really can't seem to break away from telling me about how it was. I know this is how it was. My question to you was a theoretical one about "If you could go back to FP- but have all other guests use it like you - would you like that". And everyone who answered, said YES.

Even tho the only reason you can do these things in the old FP- system is because most guests did NOT tour like you. Most guests would not consume the measley 13,000 TT ridings. So they were left for you to conveniently pull after you got done w Soarin.



Again. I get how it was. But if even half the guests toured like you (got there in the first 2 hours and pulled a Soarin or TT)... then ALL FP- WOULD BE GONE.

Anyways. Point again -- if everyone used FP-, FP- would be about as useful to you as FP+ is today. Do the math.

Yes you can point out MOST PPL DID NOT USE IT - and therefore it was indeed way more useful to you... but a system that most people did not use is simply not a good system. Thus the gripe about FP+ being worse than FP- is really a gripe about more people now using FastPass in general. Tiering is not about Disney limiting you, but an obvious fall-out from 38,000 people now being able to pull FastPasses to the 17,000 and 13,000 capacity rides and there clearly not being enough of those to go around for each guest to have 2 or more of them.

Well yes, it is true that my FP- experience would be very different if every single park guest arrived at rope drop and started pulling FP-. I'm not sure how that is relevant to the discussion. FP+ would be even worse if every single park guest arrived at rope drop, clogging the lines and the kiosks. To fairly compare the current FP+ system to a system in which everyone used FP-, you can't also change the time at which people arrive.

If we're going to limit ourselves to Epcot, even though my main concern is MK, this what we used to do: Get Soarin' fastpass. Ride Test Track standby. Sometimes get Soarin fastpass again around 10:30 a.m., sometimes not. Send DH ahead to get Maelstrom fastpasses after lunch because the kids love it and I like to feel relaxed in the World Showcase. Now, let's say the Soarin fastpasses are somehow gone when we're eligible for new ones even though most people haven't even arrived yet. You cannot tell me that Maelstrom fastpasses will also be gone. Then, we rode Spaceship Earth in the late afternoon in a short standby line because no one fastpassed it. This is no longer true because people are forced to pick two second tier attractions.
 
I doubt that anyone out there is sitting there feeling excited because "I get to wait!" :rotfl:

That aside, that is NOT what everyone is complaining about. That is the truth. Of course some people don't like it (I admit that I don't) but there is a lot more to this than you seem to know.


So than please, educate me what are the complaints? Here is how i see it.
tier 1 vs tier 2? now I have to wait
we only get three! Now I have to wait.
I cant plan day of! Now I have to wait.
 
Does this mean that you will not return? I'm truly curious about this. It goes to a conversation I was having on here with some fellow DISers the other day.

I'm also curious why those who are so dissatisfied by this change that they say they'll curtail their Disney vacationing keep coming back to an unofficial Disney board to discuss.

Not saying that you are - just asking the question - but if I was truly DONE with Disney because of this, I'd plan other vacations in its place and certainly bail on DISboards. But everyone is different, of course...

We won't be going back to WDW until after Avatar has been opened for at least a year. Why do I read the DIS? I am an avid fan of train wrecks. Does that explain it well enough? :confused3
 
We won't be going back to WDW until after Avatar has been opened for at least a year. Why do I read the DIS? I am an avid fan of train wrecks. Does that explain it well enough? :confused3

I guess that would explain it, from your perspective! LOL!

Thanks. :)
 
Wonderful points.
Thank you.
Now pretend all guests tour like you. Like I originally asserted. Pretend they all show up at rope drop and try to pull a FP to Soarin or TT like you. All the FP- would immediately be gone.
But why "pretend" something that cannot happen. This goes back to your teleportation theory. 38,000 people cannot enter that park simulataneously.
And 38,000 people cannot make Fast Passes disappear instantaneously. It takes time for the machines to process the requests. TSM machines were pushed to their absolute limit and never ran dry before 10:30-11:00. Greater demand does not translate to faster depletion. It only leads to greater disappointment in terms of the number of unfulfilled requests. But the people who get their passes will get them in the same amount of time, and that passage of time is not "immediate."

Therefore the old system benefitted you significantly only because as you point out -- most people did not do this. Even if they wanted to -- the logistics of getting 13000 ppl to the TT machine before 10am would be tough.
Not tough. Impossible.

But let me tell ya something... because of this wonderful new internet thingy -- they CAN. They can get all 38000 guests thru a FastPass kiosk with never having to leave their home. So FP+ is exactly the system in which all 38,000 guests now CAN -- and are choosing to -- pull a FP to the headliner rides -- as quickly or quicker than you even.
But this entire discussion (predicated on your question) was: Would you prefer to go back to FP-, and do you haters think that you would be better off? So how did we now shift over to internet, virtual Fast Passes that you get without leaving your home? That is not a reversion to FP-. In order to fairly answer your question, we have to assume the use of machines. If you want to change your question to: Would you like to see a Fast Pass system that operated like FP- but used internet technology and a pre-planning app instead?, then we'd have a different discussion. Frankly, to me, the two (FP- and pre-booking) are irreconcilable. FP- had the built in "wait two hours" shut out period whereas the pre-booking system does not. Without that shut out period, FP- simply isn't FP-.

What would be the true impact of a system where 100% of the people wanted to use it? As I have pointed out, early arrivers would benefit. So RD arrival times would be pushed back. Commandos would arrive 2 hours before park opening, and "regular" RD'ers would arrive 20 minutes before opening. The former would see no change in their touring style and the latter would be aghast that they arrived 20 minutes before park opening and got shut out of FPs. So, that is a change. But only a shift in time and not actual outcome.
 
Wonderful points. Now pretend all guests tour like you. Like I originally asserted. Pretend they all show up at rope drop and try to pull a FP to Soarin or TT like you. All the FP- would immediately be gone. Therefore the old system benefitted you significantly only because as you point out -- most people did not do this. Even if they wanted to -- the logistics of getting 13000 ppl to the TT machine before 10am would be tough. But let me tell ya something... because of this wonderful new internet thingy -- they CAN. They can get all 38000 guests thru a FastPass kiosk with never having to leave their home. So FP+ is exactly the system in which all 38,000 guests now CAN -- and are choosing to -- pull a FP to the headliner rides -- as quickly or quicker than you even.


But JimmyV's point was that what you propose above (even if it were possible, which it isn't) wouldn't effect him because he would be their first. Someone had to be first, and it would be him (or whomever rope dropper you imagine).

FP- was better for those who were there first, period. That advantage has disappeared with FP+
 
So than please, educate me what are the complaints? Here is how i see it.
tier 1 vs tier 2? now I have to wait
we only get three! Now I have to wait.
I cant plan day of! Now I have to wait.
I don't like to preschedule
I don't like to carry a phone
I don't like the longer fastpass return lines (more waiting but why wouldn't this matter if true?)
I stay offsite and can't preschedule (might be changing)
I don't like wearing anything on my wrist (minor one but it exists)
I don't like Disney monitoring me more closely (maybe paranoia but it is something people have brought up)

You said elsewhere that you could schedule on the fly. That would be OK but I'm not sure if this will work during busy periods. Some people have to go during busy periods.
 
I'm also curious why those who are so dissatisfied by this change that they say they'll curtail their Disney vacationing keep coming back to an unofficial Disney board to discuss.

It's very simple. Most of us love Disney and have been some of their most loyal customers. We expect further changes to the system to move it in a direction we'd prefer. The more people that complain, the better chance of influencing changes. Complain to a Disney, complain on message boards, Facebook, Twitter, and tell all our friend what we don't like. More changes are coming.

And of course I don't want to wait, and there's really nothing wrong with that, especially when we didn't have to wait much before.
 
Well yes, it is true that my FP- experience would be very different if every single park guest arrived at rope drop and started pulling FP-. I'm not sure how that is relevant to the discussion.

I guess that's the whole point of this thread. It is not the change to electronic FP+ from ticketed FP- that is worse for guests that used to optimize FP-. It is solely that the system is so much more appealing to customers in general that so many more guests are using it -- and this extra usage is what leads to the result of having one headliner per guest being Fast Passable.

Get Soarin' fastpass. Ride Test Track standby. Sometimes get Soarin fastpass again around 10:30 a.m., sometimes not. Send DH ahead to get Maelstrom fastpasses after lunch because the kids love it and I like to feel relaxed in the World Showcase. Now, let's say the Soarin fastpasses are somehow gone when we're eligible for new ones even though most people haven't even arrived yet. You cannot tell me that Maelstrom fastpasses will also be gone. Then, we rode Spaceship Earth in the late afternoon in a short standby line because no one fastpassed it. This is no longer true because people are forced to pick two second tier attractions.

I think you can realistically still do all this now. Pull a Soarin FP, pull a SE FP, and one other Tier-2 like MS FP if you wish... Ride TT or Soarin at rope drop, run to the other, ride it in a short'ish wait (nothing like mid-day) then have your FPs standing by for Soarin, SE, and MS for 10, 11, and 12. By 1pm you've done TT, Soarin (between 9 and 10:30) and then all 3 other rides, plus you fit in some time-killers between your 11 and 12 FP slots. You can pick up Maelstrom in the evening with reasonable wait. We've never waited more than 10 min for that and even if it's 30 it's no big deal... a 30-min wait for any ride at any theme park is bearable. It's those hours and hour-and-a-half waits that you want to cut out, and they're perfectly easy to avoid by common sense methods like utilizing rope drop as you already did and will probly continue to do.
 
Does this mean that you will not return? I'm truly curious about this. It goes to a conversation I was having on here with some fellow DISers the other day.

I'm also curious why those who are so dissatisfied by this change that they say they'll curtail their Disney vacationing keep coming back to an unofficial Disney board to discuss.

Not saying that you are - just asking the question - but if I was truly DONE with Disney because of this, I'd plan other vacations in its place and certainly bail on DISboards. But everyone is different, of course...

No I have no plans to return to Disney for a full vacation at the moment. And yes, I have tried FP+. I am now switching strictly to Universal, instead of the split trips I have none in the past. Now, that's not only because of FP+, because once Universal got the rights to Potter they automatically got more share of my money. I was raised a Disney kid, I've been going to Disney for many, many years, but Potter trumps all for me, so that is a huge factor there.

However, that doesn't change the fact that I do love Disney, I am just not currently thrilled with the product. I may decide to try it again at some point, and I might do the Christmas party when I am down for Universal in Dec. I just have no plans to book a full vacation at Disney again with the product being currently what it is.

I honestly don't get the whole idea that you need to "bail on the DisBoards" because currently one is not happy with everything Disney is doing. You can have issues with things and still love what Disney has meant to you in your life. You can still check into things and see if maybe something changes or you can find a way to work around your issues eventually.
 













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