Universal re-evaluating SeussLand?

[Olaf Myfrenzargay]

Tom Sawyer’s Island at WDW has got to be on the list to go. Tom Sawyer. Huck Finn. All the same to mindless censorship.

 

[ofcabbagesandkings]

This isn't about censorship, or wokeness, or cancel culture. Dr. Seuss' estate decided last year, on their own, that they didn't want to publish 6 - out of 60 - books that they decided have offensive content. I can't for the life of me figure out why people have flipped out so much about this! It's really not that big a deal that a private company is pulling some of their lesser-known books because the company considers them offensive today. People are legitimately this upset about it? Baffling.

I've come to the conclusion that the pandemic has given some folks way too much free time to find things to be upset about.

 

[RamblingMad]

Tom Sawyer’s Island at WDW has got to be on the list to go. Tom Sawyer. Huck Finn. All the same to mindless censorship.

Lots of books on the banned book list. But most are still in print.

My high school teachers used to provide us the list of banned books. The discussion usually became about choice. And most people felt it was unamerican for schools and libraries to decide what we can and cannot be read. Obviously, there was an age appropriate discussion. But for the most part, nobody cared for banned books. The high school I attended was mostly Mexican and African American with more than half of the students getting free lunch. No one wanted the powers that be to decide what offended them. They wanted to make the choice themselves. It was really about being told that something should offend versus giving up the right to experience the material and be offended with the ability to discuss it. This was back in the early 90s.

 

[old lady]

People are offended for everything.

 

[redrosesix]

Tom Sawyer’s Island at WDW has got to be on the list to go. Tom Sawyer. Huck Finn. All the same to mindless censorship.

Great books, just saying, if you want to understand the time and place. But context is everything. If we looked at just about any Victorian book, they might be removed because in those women had very little power. Sad thing is that was true then.

 

[shawthorne44]

Great books, just saying, if you want to understand the time and place. But context is everything. If we looked at just about any Victorian book, they might be removed because in those women had very little power. Sad thing is that was true then.

We are homeschoolers and for History we follow a 4-year cycle, so all of history is covered in 4 years and then you start over again (deeper). In one year both the Incas and slavery were covered, and that upset her greatly. We weren't quite done with the year, when we read "Life for Medieval Women" or something like that. The misery in it pushed her over the edge. It was too much for her gentle soul and she declared herself DONE with that part of history.

 

[redrosesix]

We are homeschoolers and for History we follow a 4-year cycle, so all of history is covered in 4 years and then you start over again (deeper). In one year both the Incas and slavery were covered, and that upset her greatly. We weren't quite done with the year, when we read "Life for Medieval Women" or something like that. The misery in it pushed her over the edge. It was too much for her gentle soul and she declared herself DONE with that part of history.

Totally understandable...

I feel like we're honouring their existence or their work just by remembering them, and that's the most important thing we can do. It's not good to sugarcoat history because then we don't learn from it, but sometimes we're not ready for the details. For me, there are a bunch of people or subjects that were like that.

I guess she probably wouldn't want to know about Renaissance women having mice living in their hairdos.

 

[shawthorne44]

I guess she probably wouldn't want to know about Renaissance women having mice living in their hairdos.

I knew about the mouse fur eyebrows, but not that one.

We recently got done reading a true story about a girl and her family sent to Siberia for being Jews. She asked why we needed to read that since it wasn't fun. I said that we need to know that these things have happened because otherwise we would think they couldn't happen, then they would.

 

[mawuponastar]

As an Asian-American, incredibly disheartening to see some of the commenters here harping against the decision made by the Dr. Seuss estate to stop publishing some of their books based on the racist imagery. I remember reading those books as a kid and being confused and upset but I couldn't articulate why - now I can, and I'm thankful for their decision.

I've seen some argue that this is erasing history - in what way? Dr. Seuss aren't history books. and actual history depicting the history of racism is still taught in schools, such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and the Japanese internment camps (although I'd argue not enough). And having these in circulation prior hasn't done anything to mitigate the rising hate crimes against Asian-Americans in the past year, so I don't buy the argument that these books had any effect on reducing racism.

 

[New Mouse]

As an Asian-American, incredibly disheartening to see some of the commenters here harping against the decision made by the Dr. Seuss estate to stop publishing some of their books based on the racist imagery. I remember reading those books as a kid and being confused and upset but I couldn't articulate why - now I can, and I'm thankful for their decision.

I've seen some argue that this is erasing history - in what way? Dr. Seuss aren't history books. and actual history depicting the history of racism is still taught in schools, such as the Chinese Exclusion Act and the Japanese internment camps (although I'd argue not enough). And having these in circulation prior hasn't done anything to mitigate the rising hate crimes against Asian-Americans in the past year, so I don't buy the argument that these books had any effect on reducing racism.

Do you buy that these books and Suess land perpetuate racism in the minds of young children and push them towards racist tendencies?

I wouldnt dispute your feelings on the subject, but I also have never heard someone cite Dr. Suess as the reason why their kids grew up treating people different in a negative way...actually quite the opposite.

 

[TommyJK]

...but I also have never heard someone cite Dr. Suess as the reason why their kids grew up treating people different in a negative way...actually quite the opposite.

There is not a single "source" that someone can point to and say "because of this one thing, it led me on this path......". It's the culminated collective of all external influences that shape ones attitudes both consciously and subconsciously.

And just because something might not straight out incite racism (like coming right out and saying to treat others more poorly because of their race), we should still be taking a critical look at things that portray a tolerance of racist imagery/stereotypes. No different than when years ago Disney decided to stop publishing/showing Song of the South.

Seuss' work in general is indeed great for kids, and they'll all get to continue enjoying his 54 other books.

If we are indeed a society that does not tolerate racism in any form then I see no valid argument against the stopping of publication of entertainment publications that contain negative imagery of other races.

 

[mawuponastar]

Do you buy that these books and Suess land perpetuate racism in the minds of young children and push them towards racist tendencies?

I wouldnt dispute your feelings on the subject, but I also have never heard someone cite Dr. Suess as the reason why their kids grew up treating people different in a negative way...actually quite the opposite.

I don’t see the specific imagery in the books that are no longer being published doing any favors in steering young children towards being more accepting. Have you seen the illustration? They really are outdated and offensive in today’s society.

I still love many of Dr. Seuss’s other books and think those teach valuable lessons for kids. I think it’s possible to embrace those books while acknowledging that some of his older work has some racist illustrations and wording that the estate has deemed no longer congruent to today’s standards.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Speaking of checked pasts. What about Walt Disney being a Nazi sympathizer? Wouldn't that eliminate going to any of the Disney parks?

There have been several times in the last few years that I've learned a really dark thing about someone that was a hero. As in my first reaction is, "What a douche!" is the mildest reaction.

Where is the evidence of Disney being a Nazi sympathizer?

 

[redrosesix]

I knew about the mouse fur eyebrows, but not that one.

We recently got done reading a true story about a girl and her family sent to Siberia for being Jews. She asked why we needed to read that since it wasn't fun. I said that we need to know that these things have happened because otherwise we would think they couldn't happen, then they would.

Yes, they kept those big hairdos for weeks at a time, kept together with fat and flour and things added in including human hair (which was obtained by buying hair from poor women). Mice would build nests in the hairdos, and some bugs. And of course most people also had lice.

Was that book The Endless Steppe? If not, it's the same story. I read that as a girl and a lot of it has stayed with me. If so, tell your daughter Esther was better off going to Siberia even though it wasn't easy and she did live to write that book. I've recently been reading a lot of the work of historian Timothy Snyder on that area of the world in that time period -- don't let her read that until uni.

 

[redrosesix]

There is not a single "source" that someone can point to and say "because of this one thing, it led me on this path......". It's the culminated collective of all external influences that shape ones attitudes both consciously and subconsciously.

And just because something might not straight out incite racism (like coming right out and saying to treat others more poorly because of their race), we should still be taking a critical look at things that portray a tolerance of racist imagery/stereotypes. No different than when years ago Disney decided to stop publishing/showing Song of the South.

Seuss' work in general is indeed great for kids, and they'll all get to continue enjoying his 54 other books.

If we are indeed a society that does not tolerate racism in any form then I see no valid argument against the stopping of publication of entertainment publications that contain negative imagery of other races.

Just playing devil's advocate...wouldn't you prefer that they correct the images that bother you? I know when they took Pocohontas out of the parks, I felt somewhat disappointed that that had erased all First Nations people from Disney. I hated that they had used Pocohontas as the main character of a movie, especially because it was based on a mythical version of a woman whose life had actually been very sad. If they had just made the movie about some fictional First Nations woman it might have passed, the music was great, and I thought the Colours of the Wind attraction in AK nailed it. but now North American indigenous people don't exist there, and even though my daughter is less than a quarter First Nations, there is no princess like her now (although she ended up being Tinkerbell anyways).

Sure, some of the books would not be published that way today but the manuscripts would not be tossed in the garbage -- they would be sent back for edits, and I think that's what they should do with them now.

 

[redrosesix]

Where is the evidence of Disney being a Nazi sympathizer?

He wasn't with them all the way -- he was apolitical except for hating communists and labour unions, and in the early 30s he didn't see so much wrong with what Hitler was doing...like many people at that time including Charles Lindberg, Henry Ford and the Duke of Windsor. In 1938, he considered hiring a German woman who had made much of the early propaganda films for the Nazi Party. She decided to leave Germany after kristalnacht and he was the only one who would give her a shot -- he didn't hire her.

It wasn't just him. Most countries had a policy of appeasement at that time and they didn't know what we know now. Before the war started in 1939, there were rumours that Hitler was killing off people that others didn't care about, like the Roma, but nobody cared -- it wasn't widely known, just in diplomatic circles. I would say a lot of people started looking at Germany and the Nazi party differently after kristalnacht, given that it was in line with what Hitler had written in Mein Kampf (another book that shouldn't be banned but I would reserve it for university students and people who have some history under their belt) and world leaders began to take Hitler more seriously about his expansion plans.

 

[TommyJK]

Just playing devil's advocate...wouldn't you prefer that they correct the images that bother you?.....

Either option is fine to me.

 

[Jimmy Mouse]

I grew up reading Dr. Suess and my kids have every book. I have never read or seen anything in the books that is racist. I just flipped through a few and still can't find any racism. I think the whole cancel culture is ridiculous and ruining our country. If I wanted to, I am pretty sure I can find something "racist" in every book, tv show and song ever produced. People with too much time on their hands are just looking to ruin things for everyone else. Misery loves company. How about banning and deleting all rap music with racial slurs? Now there's an idea.

 

[ChanaC]

The books that were pulled were some lesser known and published books that you probably don't have on your bookshelf anyway. Not all of Seuss is "being cancelled" just those particular ones are not being published anymore. You didn't find the racist stuff because you probably didn't look that hard, and clearly didn't read any of the news stories closely. No one is trying to "ruin" things, they are actually trying to make the world a little better and more inclusive for people who have been historically marginalized.

 

[shawthorne44]

Look at just the Universal part. People don't go to Seussland and think, "Wow, that is racist" I can't even remember any people characters in Seussland. Closest to people-ish would be the Sneetches. Although maybe I just noticed them most because I loved reading that book to DD.

I normally have an anti-text policy on clothing for myself. I don't think that there is anything wrong with text on shirts. But teenage boys tended to stare at my teenage breasts and say "I'm just reading your shirt." So, I have an ick-association. I made an exception because I was so amused. Drawing of the hat in cat-in-the-hat and "Come and Take it" underneath. All three of us will be wearing them at Universal.