Universal Handles Accommodation MUCH Better Than Disney

[kaytieeldr]

No, I didn't misunderstand.

If there are thirty people in line, it is relatively easy to keep track of one's turn to enter the establishment - you can see and probably talk to the person who would be ahead of you.

If there are three HUNDRED people in that same line, the only way to keep track of when it it your turn to enter the establishment is to actually have somebody in line holding your place.

Say you were to choose the "I'm right behind them" method of tracking your turn. Then at some point "they" choose to exit the line. NOW how do you establish when it's your turn?

 

[merryweather20]

No, I didn't misunderstand.

If there are thirty people in line, it is relatively easy to keep track of one's turn to enter the establishment - you can see and probably talk to the person who would be ahead of you.

If there are three HUNDRED people in that same line, the only way to keep track of when it it your turn to enter the establishment is to actually have somebody in line holding your place.

Say you were to choose the "I'm right behind them" method of tracking your turn. Then at some point "they" choose to exit the line. NOW how do you establish when it's your turn?

Goodness! This would be exceedingly easy! Heck if I just ask what one of my clubbing friends what the wait would be from x place they'd have no trouble telling me, never mind the club owners. This isn't PI's first busy day.
Even if it was, as other posters suggested it would be extremely simple to give someone in line a tag to time their entrance. It was PI's choice not to make the regular line accessible, so they are also charged with the simple task of providing equal access to patrons who cannot use it. It ain't rocket science.

Even in your example the person exiting the line would have people standing directly in front of them and directly behind them. PI had any number of simple easy options.

 

[BillSears]

Goodness! This would be exceedingly easy! Heck if I just ask what one of my clubbing friends what the wait would be from x place they'd have no trouble telling me, never mind the club owners. This isn't PI's first busy day.
Even if it was, as other posters suggested it would be extremely simple to give someone in line a tag to time their entrance. It was PI's choice not to make the regular line accessible, so they are also charged with the simple task of providing equal access to patrons who cannot use it. It ain't rocket science.

Even in your example the person exiting the line would have people standing directly in front of them and directly behind them. PI had any number of simple easy options.

The problem is that this was the last night that the Adventurers Club was open. There was no president for this. I'm sure there were many people who got in line and were not allowed to enter the AC due to people getting there very early(some as early as 8:00 AM) and them not leaving the club. Plus the only spot that seemed to not be accessible was the stairs themselves just before you enter the club.

Today I was at a convention planning meeting and one of the other people at the meeting went to AC last night. He told us he got in line at 8:45 and did not get into the club until 12:45am, a four hour wait. He said they finally threw everyone out at 2:00.

Based on this it might have been reasonable to give a pass for admittance 4 hours later then when they arrived. On the other hand maybe it would have been longer or shorter, who really knows.

 

[merryweather20]

The problem is that this was the last night that the Adventurers Club was open. There was no president for this. I'm sure there were many people who got in line and were not allowed to enter the AC due to people getting there very early(some as early as 8:00 AM) and them not leaving the club. Plus the only spot that seemed to not be accessible was the stairs themselves just before you enter the club.

The precedent would have been other much busier nights such as New Year's Eve.

I'm not sure why you think they shouldn't have been allowed to wait at 6:30. Cheshire Figment's post (which you quoted) stated that there was a 4 hour wait for people joining the line at 8:45pm an hour and a 1/4 later than the OP joined the line.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Not really. Pleasure Island celebrated New Year's Eve EVERY night for many years, and every actual New Year's Eve from when the format changed through 12/31/07.

Limited tickets were sold for that event (note again that even now, a notation exists on the PI tickets stating they are not valid 12/31).

Pleasure Island, and so Adventurers Club, closed for good ONCE - ergo, no precedent.

And if you give a marker to some random person in line, and that person chooses to forget about it, or lose it, or pass it backwards in the evergrowing line, or leaves the line with it - then what becomes of the Guest(s) relying on that marker to indicate it's their turn to enter?

 

[merryweather20]

Not really. Pleasure Island celebrated New Year's Eve EVERY night for many years, and every actual New Year's Eve from when the format changed through 12/31/07.

Limited tickets were sold for that event (note again that even now, a notation exists on the PI tickets stating they are not valid 12/31).

Pleasure Island, and so Adventurers Club, closed for good ONCE - ergo, no precedent.

And if you give a marker to some random person in line, and that person chooses to forget about it, or lose it, or pass it backwards in the evergrowing line, or leaves the line with it - then what becomes of the Guest(s) relying on that marker to indicate it's their turn to enter?

Sorry you are not going to convince me that queueing is rocket science, nor are you going to convince me that Disney can't do queuing.

Based on the figures provided (only a 4hour wait) they've certainly been much much busier on New Year's eve, not to mention other days. So yep all those other busy days would indeed be a precedent.

As I said before if someone leaves the line they will have people ahead of and behind them (Some with brightly coloured shirts ). Not only that, PI could use any method to provide equal access, they're not locked in to giving a marker to someone in line. That was just one simple suggestion from the other posters. PI could use any method they want to make access equal for all. The only option they didn't have was denying access to someone only because they were in a wheel-chair.

 

[SueM in MN]

Based on the figures provided (only a 4hour wait) they've certainly been much much busier on New Year's eve, not to mention other days.

Just for clarification, I don't think the 4 hour wait was known ahead of time. I think it was reported to be 4 hours after people were talking about what had happened.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Sorry you are not going to convince me that queueing is rocket science, nor are you going to convince me that Disney can't do queuing.

Of course they can. Now, can you name any other attraction at Walt Disney World where (a) there is no precedent for the entire attraction area closing permanently; (b) it is the last possible day/night ever to visit that attraction; and (c) there is no way or intent to force people to leave the building?

If you are allowing Guests already in the building to remain in the building as long as they want - up to eight hours in this case - and you have a maximum capacity, and a line of 400 people waiting to enter the building from the moment it reaches capacity until it closes for good, how do you allow EQUAL access/admission to that building to all Guests?

As I said before if someone leaves the line they will have people ahead of and behind them (Some with brightly coloured shirts ).

Wouldn't matter. It is not the responsibility of ANY Guest to track, or represent a place in line, for any Guest not a member of their party. Say you determine you're behind the guy in the fuschia and orange Hawaiian-print shirt. That guy gets fed up after an hour and leaves the line. Now what? Plus, how do you prove that represents your place in line? Same thing with a marker - the person holding the marker passes it backwards, and it keeps going backwards through 200 more people. How do you determine where it's your turn to enter?

Now, actually, the OP and his father could have gotten in line together and stayed in line together until they reached a point where the OP would have full sight of his father waiting at the top of the ramp. Then the father could have ridden the ECV up the ramp, the OP could have remained in line, the father could have signaled if he needed help PLUS the OP would have been able to see clearly if he needed help - and when the OP reached the door waiting in line with everyone else, both persons could have entered the building.

But that doesn't seem to be an option the OP considered; I will not speculate on whether the party would have agreed to that option if it had been suggested by a Cast Member. Only the OP knows for sure.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

Just a quick moderator note here.

This subject is, as just about everyone agrees, a very unusual situation under unusual circumstances.

As the original poster stated an e-mail had been received from WDW on 10/2 asking for a phone number, I am going to hold off on closing this thread; I will allow a reasonable time for the original poster to state the results of the phone call and then it will be closed.

 

[JLTraveling]

I am the OP, and I would first like to thank the mods for allowing this thread to stay open. I received a call from a Guest Communication representative just a couple of days ago. She told us that the matter had been referred to PI management (in other words, back to S.) for resolution. She did admit fault, and offered two one-day park hoppers for our trouble. As AP holders, this does us no good, and more to the point, referring the matter back to S. guarantees that nothing will be done as far as re-training, etc. We have now retained the services of the Florida Legislature discrimination department, who will be referring us to an ADA attorney. According to what we have been told, both Florida law and the Americans with Disabilities Act forbid this sort of discrimination.

In response to:

Now, actually, the OP and his father could have gotten in line together and stayed in line together until they reached a point where the OP would have full sight of his father waiting at the top of the ramp. Then the father could have ridden the ECV up the ramp, the OP could have remained in line, the father could have signaled if he needed help PLUS the OP would have been able to see clearly if he needed help - and when the OP reached the door waiting in line with everyone else, both persons could have entered the building.

But that doesn't seem to be an option the OP considered; I will not speculate on whether the party would have agreed to that option if it had been suggested by a Cast Member. Only the OP knows for sure.

I think you have misunderstood the situation. At the time that we arrived, the line was ON the steps. Had the line been BEFORE the steps, such that when we arrived at the front, we would have simply split up for him to take the ramp and me to take the stairs, there would have been no issue. But the four hour plus wait took place entirely ON the stairs. The disabled ramp is around the corner on the side of the building, not visible from the stairs due to a wall. Thus, for the entire four hours plus, Dad and I would have been unable to see each other. Therefore, it was not acceptable nor legal.

Thank you to those of you who have been supportive and understanding. I greatly appreciate it!

 

[kaytieeldr]

Yeah, I guess I still don't understand. I was allowed to wait ON the top surface - the same level as the door - and immediately to the left of the 'rope' and the Guests it was corralling, while my friends waited in line on the Pleasure Island 'street' surface. I was not merely at the top of the ramp.

I do not recall how far back the line went when we first entered, but even snaking around as it most likely did on the 27th, it would seem to me you would still be able to see your father from where you were in line.

She told us that the matter had been referred to PI management (in other words, back to S.)

If she did not specifically tell you "PI Management equals S.", and given the several responses in this thread regarding S.'s actual (vs. self-proclaimed) position with Disney, you can't know that this IS the person to whom the matter will be referred.

If she did tell you, "We will refer the matter to S.", that's different.

 

[JLTraveling]

It sounds like things may have been set up slightly differently when you were there. Before the situation occurred, when we were on the ramp, Dad had to pull forward onto the top surface to let a CM by. There was absolutely no way that he could have remained there due to space. They had a rather large table, a big-screen TV monitor doing a live video feed from inside the club, and over a dozen CMs standing in that space, plus ropes to corral people headed inside. When Dad pulled forward briefly into that area, dozens of bodies and objects had to squeeze out of the way.

No way could they have proceeded with normal operations with him anywhere but ON the ramp itself, which was also being used by CMs going in and out of the club. In fact, the entrance to the ramp itself had been 3/4 blocked by a garbage can and a large potted plant, which we moved back enough to access it in the first place. It looked, though I can't be certain, like it had been blocked off intentionally for CM access.

The ramp was not, in fact, visible from the bottom of the stairs. I know because when we first arrived, I stepped up on the stairs at the back of the line to see if I could tell where to go for the ramp (Dad is able to walk a little with a cane, and on a normal night he parks the ECV outside and walks in. He cannot, however, stand for a protracted time). I couldn't see it, but I did see the blue sign with the arrow pointing to the ramp.

Even if, hypothetically speaking, Dad had been able to wait somewhere, alone, but where I could see him... does sitting by himself for four hours while others can wait with their parties, in your mind, constitute an equal experience to that permitted to non-disabled parties? In addition, what if I had needed to administer the medication that I carry? Wouldn't I have had to leave the line to do so, thus losing both of our places?

The situation was badly mismanaged by Disney. Disney is well aware of ADA law and discrimination law, and chose to act (or more specifically S. chose to act) in violation of the law. How they become compliant is not up to me to figure out, but I had the reasonable expectation that they would do so.

 

[Talking Hands]

I am the OP, and I would first like to thank the mods for allowing this thread to stay open. I received a call from a Guest Communication representative just a couple of days ago. She told us that the matter had been referred to PI management (in other words, back to S.) for resolution. She did admit fault, and offered two one-day park hoppers for our trouble. As AP holders, this does us no good, and more to the point, referring the matter back to S. guarantees that nothing will be done as far as re-training, etc. We have now retained the services of the Florida Legislature discrimination department, who will be referring us to an ADA attorney. According to what we have been told, both Florida law and the Americans with Disabilities Act forbid this sort of discrimination.

In response to:


I think you have misunderstood the situation. At the time that we arrived, the line was ON the steps. Had the line been BEFORE the steps, such that when we arrived at the front, we would have simply split up for him to take the ramp and me to take the stairs, there would have been no issue. But the four hour plus wait took place entirely ON the stairs. The disabled ramp is around the corner on the side of the building, not visible from the stairs due to a wall. Thus, for the entire four hours plus, Dad and I would have been unable to see each other. Therefore, it was not acceptable nor legal.

Thank you to those of you who have been supportive and understanding. I greatly appreciate it!

I don't see how retraining will be done or even why it should be done as Pleasure Island is no more. They have closed all the clubs so it is a moot point. Also I don't know why you couldn't see your Dad from the steps as I can see the entire front from the top of the ramp including the steps. And I have used that ramp many times. Now if you were talking about Comedy Warehouse I could see the problem but Adventurers Club steps.

 

[JLTraveling]

I think at this point we'll need to agree to disagree. We all have our own opinions, but those opinions do not change the letter or the spirit of the law. If some of you are comfortable with leaving people in wheelchairs with volatile medical conditions to sit alone for four hours, and that is an acceptable solution to you, so be it. That is within your rights and entirely your choice. However, it is not a legally acceptable solution, and I choose not to defend my point of view any further.

Thanks again to those who have been supportive. I do appreciate it

 

[livndisney]

I don't see how retraining will be done or even why it should be done as Pleasure Island is no more. They have closed all the clubs so it is a moot point. Also I don't know why you couldn't see your Dad from the steps as I can see the entire front from the top of the ramp including the steps. And I have used that ramp many times. Now if you were talking about Comedy Warehouse I could see the problem but Adventurers Club steps.

Perhaps the "retraining" was meant for the CM's in general. To my knowledge the CM's from PI were given the chance to relocate to other areas in WDW.

 

[kaytieeldr]

They had a rather large table, a big-screen TV monitor doing a live video feed from inside the club, and over a dozen CMs standing in that space, plus ropes to corral people headed inside

Ah, yes - there's the difference! That area where there were a dozen or so CMs on Saturday? There were never more than four on Friday, and usually no more than two.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I don't see how retraining will be done or even why it should be done as Pleasure Island is no more. They have closed all the clubs so it is a moot point.

True - but IF S. is truly 'the manager' (as defined by Disney and not merely in his own mind) and has been reassigned to a similar-level position, retraining may well be appropriate. Not necessarily successful, but appropriate

 

[disneymarie]

Unfortunatly I had a similar experiance at Universal Islands of Advanture. One trip I had to push my disabled older daughter in 99* heat up the ramp with severe asthma because the greeter asked if she was ambulatory to get into the train ride that goes through the resaurant. I nearly passsed out and was treated for heat exhaustion...they had a dang elevator we caould have used. I was in tears as our day was shot. It was a short day due to early closing for the Halloween nights two years ago.

The next day I was in my Rollator and my older son with disabled dd went to the other side of the park while I took dd 10 to the Suess land area. I wanted to go on the attraction that I think is a sofa tour.....The older woman would not allow me to have her with me. The line was so long and she wanted me to allow the 10 yr old to stay in line alone until she reached me. It could have been easily over an hour. She ahd just turned 10 the day before, there was no way!

I could believe they actually thought it was OK for the child to remain in the line.......Persons with disabilities don;t have the energy to hop , short lne to short line. Everything is an effort, especially if the disability has a secondary reaction to extreme heat.

I had her to three attractions all day......there was nowhere I could wait in the cool. Except the dang first aid station and replenish with gator aid and ice.
This was a record breaking Oct heat of near 100* every day two years ago this week. I knew not to go again in May.

I just wanated to give my dd a good time, a nice day. We never knew the future held that was to be my older dd last trip. She passed away a few months later...When for heavens sake can;t parks meet the medical needs and not put patrons at risk pushing limits. Even in Disney to see 5 attactions on a full day, with two long breaks, it is pushing it.

But, what if your Dad had a serious need and no one responded and he was in great risk, where they willing to assume that? I think parks need to use common sense and stop thinking patrons are trying to get away with something.

Grab every precious moment of joy, and assist the park patrons to have that day.