Unfair in the workplace

[bcla]

Where I worked sick time didn't exist. Even my husband's old company went away from separated sick and vacation and lumped it into PTO. Now he still had an old bank of sick time but it very rarely could be used and was more restricted than it was before it merged.

Doctor's notes also weren't a thing with my company. I had bronchitis and was out for days and my company's policy was a doctor's note was never a document that could be used because again it was don't ask don't tell. It was all based on was the time available or not in the system.

Company policy included bereavement leave although they could ask for proof.

Just understand not all companies operate like you are describing

I've done all of the above. I had to travel for my grandfather's funeral and I think we had at least 3 days. Maybe 5? It was a while ago. Another time was jury duty where I needed to present a note from the court indicating the exact dates I was on jury duty. It was M-Th so I still went to worth on Fridays. I was also instructed to decline any jury pay (which was only $5 a day) although I think I could have accepted mileage. But mileage needed at least 25 miles as the crow flies for anything. But the key was that company policy was that employees got full pay during jury duty and they wanted proof and not just an employee's say-so.

I'm not sure what I could have done about bereavement leave. Getting a death certificate can be difficult.

 

[bcla]

I get very few last minute PTO call offs from my staff. I might get "I need to work from home today" emails in the morning but I can't remember the last time I got a PTO that wasn't at least a day in advance. We don't have any different buckets, all PTO is just PTO with the exception of bereavement. FMLA is also handled through whatever the law states but if it comes to that it goes to HR.

I don't care why people put in PTO, it isn't any of my business. If there is a milestone date for a project and a key member puts in PTO I may try to determine how necessary it is but would never ask directly and that is an exception. Most people will know those dates weeks or months in advance and unless they are unmovable I always get the key staff's input on dates beforehand to avoid that exact scenario.

I've had some weird last day things before. Like once I had an issue on a weekend trip and was really late. I wasn't in any condition to drive home safely because of exhaustion. I just called in the next morning explaining my situation and I don't even think a PTO day was taken off. It was more an informal thing where I might put in more hours in later day.

I've certainly dealt a lot with informal time off as a salaried employee. The key was just making sure one's job was done competently. Taking a 90 to 120 minute lunch wasn't a big deal as long as I put in more hours at the end of the day.

I don't think I've ever had a formal request for PTO the day before.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I've done all of the above. I had to travel for my grandfather's funeral and I think we had at least 3 days. Maybe 5? It was a while ago. Another time was jury duty where I needed to present a note from the court indicating the exact dates I was on jury duty. It was M-Th so I still went to worth on Fridays. I was also instructed to decline any jury pay (which was only $5 a day) although I think I could have accepted mileage. But mileage needed at least 25 miles as the crow flies for anything. But the key was that company policy was that employees got full pay during jury duty and they wanted proof and not just an employee's say-so.

I'm not sure what I could have done about bereavement leave. Getting a death certificate can be difficult.

They don't ask for a death certificate jeez. Bereavement leave varies by company. I used bereavement twice once for my husband's grandmother, the other for his great-grandmother. The company was 5 days per death and had more relations it qualified for than my husband's company and more days, didn't have to be used consecutively nor the whole 5 days.

One supervisor didn't ask for proof for husband's grandmother, the other supervisor I had did for the great-grandmother. I just gave them the "in memorial" pamphlet from the funeral which still felt crass but I wasn't lying about going a to funeral out of state so it wasn't difficult to provide something.

There was also adoption leave, pet death (the original question) would have fallen under PTO.

 

[bcla]

They don't ask for a death certificate jeez. Bereavement leave varies by company. I used bereavement twice once for my husband's grandmother, the other for his great-grandmother. The company was 5 days per death and had more relations it qualified for than my husband's company and more days, didn't have to be used consecutively nor the whole 5 days.

One supervisor didn't ask for proof for husband's grandmother, the other supervisor I had did for the great-grandmother. I just gave them the "in memorial" pamphlet from the funeral which still felt crass but I wasn't lying about going a to funeral out of state so it wasn't difficult to provide something.

There was also adoption leave, pet death (the original question) would have fallen under PTO.

I was just thinking of cases where airline travel was cancelled or change fees waived because of a death in the family. Some airlines allow a refund of cancelled tickets with proof of a family member's death. Most cite a death certificate as one acceptable proof.

I looked up California's (new) rules, and they now mandate bereavement leave, although it may be unpaid. Apparently they also can't deny the use of PTO and/or sick time for bereavement if the company doesn't automatically cover pay. But they can require some sort of proof, and a death certificate is listed as one means.

https://calcivilrights.ca.gov/wp-co...2023/04/Bereavement-Leave_AB-1949_FAQ_ENG.pdf​

Do I have to provide my employer any documentation in order to take bereavement leave?​

​

Yes, if requested. If your employer requests documentation of the death, you are required to provide it. However, you are not required to provide such documentation before you begin your leave. Instead, you must provide this documentation within 30 days of the first day of your bereavement leave. This documentation may be in the form of a death certificate, obituary, or written verification of death, burial, or memorial service from a mortuary, funeral home, burial society, crematorium, religious institution, or government agency.​

​

Your employer must keep this documentation confidential and not disclose it except as necessary to internal personnel or counsel, or if required by law.​

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I was just thinking of cases where airline travel was cancelled or change fees waived because of a death in the family. Some airlines allow a refund of cancelled tickets with proof of a family member's death. Most cite a death certificate as one acceptable proof.

I looked up California's (new) rules, and they now mandate bereavement leave, although it may be unpaid. Apparently they also can't deny the use of PTO and/or sick time for bereavement if the company doesn't automatically cover pay. But they can require some sort of proof, and a death certificate is listed as one means.

https://calcivilrights.ca.gov/wp-co...2023/04/Bereavement-Leave_AB-1949_FAQ_ENG.pdf​

Do I have to provide my employer any documentation in order to take bereavement leave?​

​

Yes, if requested. If your employer requests documentation of the death, you are required to provide it. However, you are not required to provide such documentation before you begin your leave. Instead, you must provide this documentation within 30 days of the first day of your bereavement leave. This documentation may be in the form of a death certificate, obituary, or written verification of death, burial, or memorial service from a mortuary, funeral home, burial society, crematorium, religious institution, or government agency.​

​

Your employer must keep this documentation confidential and not disclose it except as necessary to internal personnel or counsel, or if required by law.​

You're starting to talk in circles here. It's really not even an important conversation to go back and forth on. Your comment was that it could be difficult to obtain a death certificate, I stated my particular company did not ask for a death certificate. Even your comment above doesn't say that it's required. Airline travel is not even relevant here. I'm just going to stop and move on in conversation

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I was just thinking of cases where airline travel was cancelled or change fees waived because of a death in the family. Some airlines allow a refund of cancelled tickets with proof of a family member's death. Most cite a death certificate as one acceptable proof.

I looked up California's (new) rules, and they now mandate bereavement leave, although it may be unpaid. Apparently they also can't deny the use of PTO and/or sick time for bereavement if the company doesn't automatically cover pay. But they can require some sort of proof, and a death certificate is listed as one means.

https://calcivilrights.ca.gov/wp-co...2023/04/Bereavement-Leave_AB-1949_FAQ_ENG.pdf​

Do I have to provide my employer any documentation in order to take bereavement leave?​

​

Yes, if requested. If your employer requests documentation of the death, you are required to provide it. However, you are not required to provide such documentation before you begin your leave. Instead, you must provide this documentation within 30 days of the first day of your bereavement leave. This documentation may be in the form of a death certificate, obituary, or written verification of death, burial, or memorial service from a mortuary, funeral home, burial society, crematorium, religious institution, or government agency.​

​

Your employer must keep this documentation confidential and not disclose it except as necessary to internal personnel or counsel, or if required by law.​

Reminds me of George Costanza and the bereavement faire.

 

[bcla]

You're starting to talk in circles here. It's really not even an important conversation to go back and forth on. Your comment was that it could be difficult to obtain a death certificate, I stated my particular company did not ask for a death certificate. Even your comment above doesn't say that it's required. Airline travel is not even relevant here. I'm just going to stop and move on in conversation

I wasn't sure if your reference to "they" was about your employer or employers in general. That was it.

 

[china mom]

Bereavement leave story: My employer gives you four days paid bereavement leave, not counted against your leave balance.

I was on vacation in Disneyland when got a text that my estranged brother had died. When I got back to work, I just happened to mention his death to my supervisor and made a joke about needing tie off "because I was sad" (I was OK). She changed my vacation leave to bereavement leave on the books so I got to go on vacation without using my own leave.

 

[bcla]

Bereavement leave story: My employer gives you four days paid bereavement leave, not counted against your leave balance.

I was on vacation in Disneyland when got a text that my estranged brother had died. When I got back to work, I just happened to mention his death to my supervisor and made a joke about needing tie off "because I was sad" (I was OK). She changed my vacation leave to bereavement leave on the books so I got to go on vacation without using my own leave.

Depends on the company I suppose. Several places I worked there was a specific form that had to be printed out and signed by both the employer and manager for any kind of PTO, sick time, or leave. Sometimes it would be post dated if the employee wasn't available and the pay was already made.

Other places I've worked were far more informal. Maybe just an email to HR was enough and they'd check in with a manager for approval.

The most difficult was one where we had to sign 8 hour work day timesheets in an ancient computer entry system. Might have been based on IBM System/36 but using an emulator. The formal requests were made on the timesheets although we'd typically talk to a manager before doing it. The manager had to sign off on each timesheet. And the majority of employees were salaried, but all vacation/leave/sick time was based on 8 hour work days.

 

[kdonnel]

If I was asked for proof for bereavement leave, I would give them them the most absurd proof.

If possible I would take a selfie with the body.

If not I would bring in the cremains and plop them down on the requesters desk.

Whatever I could do to draw attention to the ridiculous requirements.

 

[hrhdhd]

If I was asked for proof for bereavement leave, I would give them them the most absurd proof.

If possible I would take a selfie with the body.

If not I would bring in the cremains and plop them down on the requesters desk.

Whatever I could do to draw attention to the ridiculous requirements.

It's not ridiculous. I have students who claim 4 or 5 dead grandmothers a semester. Unfortunately, when some people abuse the goodwill of teachers or employers, everyone else has to abide by rules designed to ensure no one's cheating the system. If you actually experience a death in the family, it's not a terrible thing to inquire about a death certificate, provide a link to an obituary, give a copy of the funeral program, etc.

 

[pookybean]

PTO = Prepare the others because I wont be there.

I get separate vacation and sick time. My supervisor usually just wants to know if im using annual or sick. If sick i just have to say im "too sick to work".

My aunt has lumped together PTO and she is always being questioned, a dr apt? didn't you just have one? why cant your husband drive himself to outpatient surgery? Can you come in in between the surgery? Another vacation, really. It really stresses her out every time she needs to ask for a day off or schedule a vacation... I tell her PTO = Prepare the others, if you have the time then take it.

 

[kdonnel]

It's not ridiculous. I have students who claim 4 or 5 dead grandmothers a semester. Unfortunately, when some people abuse the goodwill of teachers or employers, everyone else has to abide by rules designed to ensure no one's cheating the system. If you actually experience a death in the family, it's not a terrible thing to inquire about a death certificate, provide a link to an obituary, give a copy of the funeral program, etc.

It is ridiculous.

Any "proof" could be easily manufactured. Anyone willing to abuse the system is willing to abuse "proof".

The few who abuse the system should not dictate the terms for the many who do not.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It's not ridiculous. I have students who claim 4 or 5 dead grandmothers a semester. Unfortunately, when some people abuse the goodwill of teachers or employers, everyone else has to abide by rules designed to ensure no one's cheating the system. If you actually experience a death in the family, it's not a terrible thing to inquire about a death certificate, provide a link to an obituary, give a copy of the funeral program, etc.

I don't disagree with you but would say that the death certificate should be the absolutely last ditch effort to prove what you're being asked to prove in the absence of other items. When you actually experience a death in the family to use your words depending on the situation it may either be difficult to provide (as in timing and access) or incredibly insensitive.

My husband's grandmother passed away on a New Year's Eve so I could understand the skepticism involved there as I used bereavement on the days following New Year's Day although that supervisor never asked me for proof my ability and frankly inappropriateness to ask for a death certificate would have been difficult.

I can't imagine it going over well to ask an employee who just lost their child or spouse or parent to hand over a death certificate when other items are much more sensitive to the nature of the time off needed.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It is ridiculous.

Any "proof" could be easily manufactured. Anyone willing to abuse the system is willing to abuse "proof".

The few who abuse the system should not dictate the terms for the many who do not.

It would be quite the thing for someone to fake a website link for a funeral home or to fake a funeral program which gives details about the person who has passed away and could be easily verifiable. I rather doubt the person who is lying about a death in the family actually goes to any length to actually fake these documents at least in a great of a number for a company to put a general policy in place. The ability to request of the documentation which I find like I said crass none the less acts like a deterrent to use such time when that's not actually the reason.

 

[kdonnel]

It would be quite the thing for someone to fake a website link for a funeral home or to fake a funeral program which gives details about the person who has passed away and could be easily verifiable. I rather doubt the person who is lying about a death in the family actually goes to any length to actually fake these documents at least in a great of a number for a company to put a general policy in place. The ability to request of the documentation which I find like I said crass none the less acts like a deterrent to use such time when that's not actually the reason.

Why do you have to fake it?

Just find a funeral that occurred during the timeframe you needed off. Use the real link on the funeral home page.

It is also easy enough to stop by and get a program. No one is checking names on a list at a funeral.

Based on who died you just say the appropriate family relation died.

I think that if you treat people like an adult, they will more than likely act like adults.

However if you put policies in place that encourage people to bend/break the rules, the rules get bent/broken.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Why do you have to fake it?

Just find a funeral that occurred during the timeframe you needed off. Use the real link on the funeral home page.

It is also easy enough to stop by and get a program. No one is checking names on a list at a funeral.

Based on who died you just say the appropriate family relation died.

I think that if you treat people like an adult, they will more than likely act like adults.

However if you put policies in place that encourage people to bend/break the rules, the rules get bent/broken.

I think you've been watching too much of something. And I thought I watched too much true crime lol. You really think that people as a norm just look up dead people for the purposes of using bereavement leave? And enough for that to be your very first thought? And you think people just stop by dead people's funerals to pick up a program on the off chance that they decide to use bereavement leave? And with great enough numbers that it's your first thoughts here. Wow.

You're thinking in a way that is quite unlikely to be the bulk of people who have actually used bereavement leave and been with a place that has that documentation can be requested. FMLA was the single most abused thing at my company, bereavement was so very rare to use, it was a blip on the radar in terms of people not being at work.

It's quite the opposite IMO for that policy to be one that encourages people to bend or break the rules. I agree with you about treating adults like adults but I don't really find an issue with specific types of leave to have xyz attached. It's not the same as PTO and didn't count against your bank nor your performance. In any case I think there should be tact involved and sensitivity but I don't find the practice itself to be as grave (no pun intended) as you seem to think. Oh well I suppose you wouldn't work for a company that did that, that's perfectly okay.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

It is ridiculous.

Any "proof" could be easily manufactured. Anyone willing to abuse the system is willing to abuse "proof".

The few who abuse the system should not dictate the terms for the many who do not.

I have a novel idea. How about we let the employer dictate the terms of whether or not proof of bereavement is needed when taking bereavement leave?

 

[kdonnel]

I think you've been watching too much of something. And I thought I watched too much true crime lol. You really think that people as a norm just look up dead people for the purposes of using bereavement leave? And enough for that to be your very first thought? And you think people just stop by dead people's funerals to pick up a program on the off chance that they decide to use bereavement leave? And with great enough numbers that it's your first thoughts here. Wow.

You're thinking in a way that is quite unlikely to be the bulk of people who have actually used bereavement leave and been with a place that has that documentation can be requested. FMLA was the single most abused thing at my company, bereavement was so very rare to use, it was a blip on the radar in terms of people not being at work.

It's quite the opposite IMO for that policy to be one that encourages people to bend or break the rules. I agree with you about treating adults like adults but I don't really find an issue with specific types of leave to have xyz attached. It's not the same as PTO and didn't count against your bank nor your performance. In any case I think there should be tact involved and sensitivity but I don't find the practice itself to be as grave (no pun intended) as you seem to think. Oh well I suppose you wouldn't work for a company that did that, that's perfectly okay.

People are apparently much more devious than you think.

I stand by my thought that adults should be treated like adults, not children. That the devious few should not dictate the policies for the honest.

 

[kdonnel]

I have a novel idea. How about we let the employer dictate the terms of whether or not proof of bereavement is needed when taking bereavement leave?

As I said in an earlier post I would bring proof if I used bereavement leave, just might be me smiling with a dead body in a selfie.

I have only used bereavement leave in real instances, and in each case my company did not ask for proof because their policies treat the employees like adults, not children.

I do feel slighted that I got sent the standard dead relative lily when my father died but got nothing when my mom died.

I present the dead Dad plant. I have managed to keep it alive over 10 years. It really needs to be repotted.