Unfair in the workplace

[john7994]

So given the current discussion migration and I realize most understand this, I will emphasize again, for well established medium-to- large businesses and even small businesses where it applies - be acquainted with your employee handbook and it’s policies for PAID and UNPAID absences (an important difference to know) - you can be terminated at the employer’s will - for not following (or gaming) established policies in so far as they are consistent with State, Federal FMLA/ADA and discrimination guidelines.

Most companies do not want the liability or fines for wrongful termination or improper compensation accounting, so they will take great pains to ensure that they are within these guidelines. Of course, this does not apply to all companies, often smaller ones are a bit lacking, so understand your employer’s expectations (as well as your manager’s on discretionary issues) and applicable laws.

Just because one company is more generous with their paid/unpaid policies doesn’t mean that other companies are automatically doing something illegal or nefarious. Any regular payroll environment should have a contact to discuss these questions as they arise when a supervisor or manager seem to be unclear.

 

[bcla]

I have a novel idea. How about we let the employer dictate the terms of whether or not proof of bereavement is needed when taking bereavement leave?

There might be somewhat of a fixation on death certificates in this discussion. It's one option, but where it might actually be easier. I'd hope that any official policy would allow for more than one method.

I remember when I went to my grandfather's funeral, there was no announcement per se, although I suppose I could have asked for a letter from the funeral home. But this was before everything might be available on the internet. There can be assorted difficulties too, including where the death occurred in another country.

At least in California, a death certificate is pretty easy to obtain, but someone would need to get it. There's an "informational" copy that might be useful. They say they can't be used to establish identity, but obviously a death certificate doesn't establish identity like a marriage certificate or a birth certificate might, which are the other forms of vital records.

 

[OneOftheB's]

If you’re drunk and call off from work no problem take your pto.

If you don’t feel like coming into work and call off no problem take your pto.

Your pet is sick and you call off and you take them to the vets and my work finds out- no pay plus points after so many points is disciplinary actions

Your pet dies and you call off from work and they find out no pay plus points.


Your thoughts?

Circling back to the OP. When I worked for the state many years ago, there were basically 3 types of leave- vacation, sick and a very few personal days you would start getting after years of accumulating sick (you could move a certain percentage of sick leave into personal, but not more than 3 days each year).

Sick and personal could be used with no pre approval- get sick or something come up? Use the appropriate leave. Vacation had to be pre approved. I can remember trying to use sick leave to take my dog to the vet (unmarried & no kids) but my boss finding out and making me change it to personal leave. I’m still a little bitter my coworker complained and my boss had to follow policy

 

[DebbieB]

My large company codes PTO as planned or unplanned. Unplanned is same day. We don’t have sick days, it’s all PTO until 6 days off for an illness. I suppose there could be discipline for too many unplanned. I work in a group of all exempts so I haven’t heard it come up, plus we can usually work at home in an emergency. I suppose it’s more strict with non-exempts.

 

[bcla]

Circling back to the OP. When I worked for the state many years ago, there were basically 3 types of leave- vacation, sick and a very few personal days you would start getting after years of accumulating sick (you could move a certain percentage of sick leave into personal, but not more than 3 days each year).

Sick and personal could be used with no pre approval- get sick or something come up? Use the appropriate leave. Vacation had to be pre approved. I can remember trying to use sick leave to take my dog to the vet (unmarried & no kids) but my boss finding out and making me change it to personal leave. I’m still a little bitter my coworker complained and my boss had to follow policy

I remember when I was in high school, our public school teachers could accumulate sick leave without any cap. One year a teacher retired mid-year but got paid the rest of the year just off of accumulated sick and vacation time. And if her students knew about it, there's no way the administration didn't know. Obviously teachers didn't necessarily take a lot of vacation time since they had all summer off.

And going way off on a tangent, I remember going on a summer trip of various nationals parks, monuments, etc. Came across several National Park Service seasonal rangers who said they were full time teachers.

 

[kdonnel]

I remember when I was in high school, our public school teachers could accumulate sick leave without any cap. One year a teacher retired mid-year but got paid the rest of the year just off of accumulated sick and vacation time. And if her students knew about it, there's no way the administration didn't know. Obviously teachers didn't necessarily take a lot of vacation time since they had all summer off.

And going way off on a tangent, I remember going on a summer trip of various nationals parks, monuments, etc. Came across several National Park Service seasonal rangers who said they were full time teachers.

It’s very common in Georgia to use accumulated sick/personal time to buy time towards retirement. People generally retire just a few weeks into the school year and use their accumulated time to buy out the remainder of the school year.

 

[DCLMP]

If you’re drunk and call off from work no problem take your pto.

If you don’t feel like coming into work and call off no problem take your pto.

Your pet is sick and you call off and you take them to the vets and my work finds out- no pay plus points after so many points is disciplinary actions

Your pet dies and you call off from work and they find out no pay plus points.


Your thoughts?

Then tell them you are sick and not your pet. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[DCLMP]

What is more to the story? If you call off work sick and they find out you wasn’t sick but it was your pet who was sick or has died you get points. You keep your mouth shut but if they find out you then get the points.

How would they find out?

 

[DCLMP]

Most corporations allow a certain number of occurrences per year before they harass you. My current one allows 4 a year and three call-offs in a row is considered one occurrence. If you go over that it's a verbal warning, written warning, corrective action, and then termination. My husband also works for a big corporation and one occurrence is 5 consecutive days in a row and 3 per year before you get a warning and need a doctor's note.

Occurances roll-off starting from the first one so you really have to call off a lot to get into trouble. If you're calling off frequently one day here and one day there you're going to get in trouble. That's pretty much a given across all jobs.

When I call off I just tell them I'm sick. I don't feel any other explanation is needed.

 

[DCLMP]

If I was asked for proof for bereavement leave, I would give them them the most absurd proof.

If possible I would take a selfie with the body.

If not I would bring in the cremains and plop them down on the requesters desk.

Whatever I could do to draw attention to the ridiculous requirements.

I've taken bereavement twice with no questions asked. If you come to your boss every month asking for bereavement pay then I could see that being an issue, but most people are honest and should be treated as such.

I would not ask for bereavement pay for a pet that's not even in the company policy. I would just call off sick and it wouldn't be a lie because I would be emotionally sick.

 

[Karin1984]

I have a novel idea. How about we let the employer dictate the terms of whether or not proof of bereavement is needed when taking bereavement leave.

Because it is about trust. It would damage a good working relationship. With this, I would prefer that management trusts their employees and only go after the bad apples and not bother the good ones during terrible times in their lives.

If my manager thinks I am lying about something like this, I would look for another job.

I have no idea what my managers did when my father died, I think i took 5-7 days off, but it didn't come out of PTO.

It does help that in the Netherlands bereavement leave is a right.
- 4 days for 1st degree family members
- 2 days for 2nd degree
- 1 day for 3rd or 4th degree.
And most employers I know will make exceptions if needed. Your grandmother is officially 2nd degree, but if she is the one who raised you, they will be lenient.

You also get 2 days off when you get married. One day to arrange the paperwork you need to get married and the day itself.

 

[CAPSLOCK]

I think a lot of companies may have it written in that they can ask for proof for bereavement leave. But it being written in that they can ask, vs actually asking, is very different. That way they can trust the majority of people - but for that dude who has lost 4 sisters in 11 months, they can choose to ask for proof because it's written in that they can. And it is generally pretty easy to provide proof (not a death cert) of an actual death.

Back to the original post - if "I just feel like it" is an officially acceptable reason, then literally anything should be. Which makes me assume that "I just feel like it" may be the real reason, but not what was reported. Or the company's PTO policy is abusable & they are treating those who seem to abuse it differently.

We get 10 PTO days a year (includes sick time) - they can be used for whatever, with or without notice. Once those are used up, you just don't get paid if you can't come in. We only had one dude who pretty blatantly abused bereavement leave (since it will be paid days off even once you have used your PTO). Everyone else just tells the truth & doesn't get paid.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It does help that in the Netherlands bereavement leave is a right.
- 4 days for 1st degree family members
- 2 days for 2nd degree
- 1 day for 3rd or 4th degree.
And most employers I know will make exceptions if needed. Your grandmother is officially 2nd degree, but if she is the one who raised you, they will be lenient.

Yeah but I see that as an issue. It assumes that relation by definition is what determines your level of grief or level of involvement/time consumption. Someone doesn't have to raise you to have a profound affect on your when they pass nor does someone being close in relation by nature mean they have more of an impact than someone who isn't, in-state vs out of state is also a consideration and this part I'm speaking about the U.S. I would find that crude to determine the amount of days based on relation based on a chart.

There was more time investment involved when my husband's great-grandmother passed given how far flung everyone was. Conversely when my husband's grandmother passed it had a much greater affect grief-wise on me but because she was local and majority of people were as well arranging things were easier. The only thing that created bumps was her son being located in a different state and needing him to come up to co-arrange things like funeral arrangements, flower arrangements and more.

You also get 2 days off when you get married. One day to arrange the paperwork you need to get married and the day itself.

Well that's odd. What about the couples who choose not to get married? And what about work schedules that don't fall on traditional wedding days? I get the premise of trying to provide this but find it misses the mark.

 

[Uncle Coaster]

It never dawned on me until this thread to get insulted if a company asked me for some sort of paperwork when taking bereavement time.

 

[mom2rtk]

Well that's odd. What about the couples who choose not to get married? And what about work schedules that don't fall on traditional wedding days? I get the premise of trying to provide this but find it misses the mark.

If you aren't getting married, you don't need to complete paperwork or be at a ceremony.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

If you aren't getting married, you don't need to complete paperwork or be at a ceremony.

Yes...I'm sure we're all aware of that...

I would hope you understood my point which was giving additional days to those who chose to get married as oppose to not including other days for those who don't (KS even allows for online although that functionality is presently turned off ((although we got married in MO)). Frankly closing on our house took more time investment for paperwork and was disruptive to our work schedules much more, A few weeks back it did as well for my sister-in-law and her boyfriend.

I kinda feel like this was self-explanatory here.

 

[mom2rtk]

Yes...I'm sure we're all aware of that...

I would hope you understood my point which was giving additional days to those who chose to get married as oppose to not including other days for those who don't (KS even allows for online although that functionality is presently turned off ((although we got married in MO)). Frankly closing on our house took more time investment for paperwork and was disruptive to our work schedules much more, A few weeks back it did as well for my sister-in-law and her boyfriend.

I kinda feel like this was self-explanatory here.

OK then.

 

[bcla]

Yes...I'm sure we're all aware of that...

I would hope you understood my point which was giving additional days to those who chose to get married as oppose to not including other days for those who don't (KS even allows for online although that functionality is presently turned off ((although we got married in MO)). Frankly closing on our house took more time investment for paperwork and was disruptive to our work schedules much more, A few weeks back it did as well for my sister-in-law and her boyfriend.

I kinda feel like this was self-explanatory here.

Sounds like a legal requirement in the Netherlands. I believe legal weddings are done at a government office in most of Europe and any big ceremony is just for show. I found one detailed description.

https://benefits.vmware.com/nl/worklife/time-off/marriage-leave/

 

[monsterkitty]

It's not ridiculous. I have students who claim 4 or 5 dead grandmothers a semester. Unfortunately, when some people abuse the goodwill of teachers or employers, everyone else has to abide by rules designed to ensure no one's cheating the system. If you actually experience a death in the family, it's not a terrible thing to inquire about a death certificate, provide a link to an obituary, give a copy of the funeral program, etc.

I had a student who missed every band concert because his grandma died. When he was in 8th grade I had his little brother as well and both missed the first concert because "their grandma died." In class I told the younger brother that I was sorry about his grandmother. He asked why and I told him about the note his brother gave me to excuse them from the concert.

Little brother looked me dead in the eye and said, "My grandma took us to the Nuggets game last night. I had no idea a dead person could still drive!"

 

[Karin1984]

I forgot, you can also get time off if you do not want to get married but do want a registered partnership (no idea what this is called in English), to put to paper that you are a couple without officially getting married.

Of course you would discuss with your work when you would do this. You do have to let the company know, it is not that you can't show up at work and then call "Oh getting married today, won't be in LOL." That you are entitled to get those day off, doesn't mean that it is without discussion or notice.

And I think it is a fact in a lot of countries that married or registered couples get (tax) benefits single people do not get. Same as parents have certain benefits childless/childfree people do not get. Not fair, but I have a feeling we are slowly moving towards more equality. We are just not there yet.

And being single & childfree has other benefits, I can travel in off season, I do not have to discuss anything with a partner, not deal with teachers. That saves a lot of stress

Life is never 100% fair or equal for everyone, but to me, that doesn't mean that others shouldn't get benefits I can't get /won't use. It is good some benefits exist. It doesn't hurt me when my colleague gets 2 days more in one year. We are equal the rest of our years at the company.

You can also turn the argument around. That when getting married does come out of PTO, a married person can argue that he/she gets less time off than a single person, because the wedding is an extra day off they can't use for a holiday or something else. No perfect solution here either.