Ugh Ugh Ugh

[GAIL HAYDEN]

I am with Ducklite on this one.
I see no reason to have to fly at night to avoid children. I see no reason why parents do not discipline children and expect everyone to have to suffer when they are unhappy, mad, or sad.
I think this is one of those times I would have applied a firm hand to the pamper, told the child to sit down and be quiet or he/she could expect more hands to the pamper.
Flame away, but, I am getting really tired of this "oh the poor child, what shall I do" attitude. For God's sake, discipline your children and try to make them at least tolerable to be around.
Regardless of where I fly, or when I fly, I don't think I need to expect to have a disturbing flight because the parents behave like contented bovines or Bambi caught in the headlights of a car while their child behaves like a little beast.

 

[GEM]

You do understand we are talking about a one and half year old here, right? At least that's what the first post said. Children that age are pretty much nonverbal and really don't respond too well to reasoning - or whacking. Now if this was a three year old or an 8 year old or whatever, I would be in complete agreement. But we're talking about a baby for goodness sake! Children that young don't cry to be manipulative or to drive you crazy. They cry because they are hurting, tired, or frustrated and that is the only way they have to express themselves. I can guarantee you that spanking an 18 month old is not going to do anything but make it cry louder. I honestly don't think you can say that a screaming 18 month old is "behaving like a little beast". It's just behaving like an 18 month old. A screaming 5 year old is behaving like a little beast. There's a big difference.

 

[kathylovesdisneyworl]

Please don't assume the parents did anything to try to deter the child. We were on a flight from MCO to Newark and we had to circle for 2 1/2 hours besides the flight time. Sweet little girl (about 1 year old) behind us spent the entire flight kicking the seat of my son. When my husband asked the mom to turn the child sideways, so she would kick her father instead, she said he was sleeping. I have seen many a parent let a child disturb the people around them without any effort to stop it. And I have to agree, buy the child a seat, it is the only safe way to fly.

 

[GEM]

Originally posted by kathylovesdisneyworl
I have seen many a parent let a child disturb the people around them without any effort to stop it.

I will agree with you there! The situation you described is completely unacceptable. I just don't think you should assume that because a baby is crying (even for a long period of time) that the parents are just "letting" it cry and not trying to do anything about it. Anybody who has ever had a baby will tell you that sometimes (not very often, thank goodness) there just isn't anyting that works to make them stop crying!

 

[chadfromdallas]

Originally posted by GEM
Anybody who has ever had a baby will tell you that sometimes (not very often, thank goodness) there just isn't anyting that works to make them stop crying!

The muzzle works....I'm telling you....it really does

 

[Uncleromulus]

My "collective" experience with unruly/screaming kids in restaurants, on aircraft, in movies, etc is that for every parent who tries to control the behavior, there are 10 who colud really care less how their children disturb others.
Hard to know the exact circumstances in this case, but my guess is that the parents of this child probably knew in advance that they would have a problem and simply decided "so what??"

 

[GAIL HAYDEN]

Originally posted by GEM
You do understand we are talking about a one and half year old here, right? At least that's what the first post said. Children that age are pretty much nonverbal and really don't respond too well to reasoning - or whacking. Now if this was a three year old or an 8 year old or whatever, I would be in complete agreement. But we're talking about a baby for goodness sake! Children that young don't cry to be manipulative or to drive you crazy. They cry because they are hurting, tired, or frustrated and that is the only way they have to express themselves. I can guarantee you that spanking an 18 month old is not going to do anything but make it cry louder. I honestly don't think you can say that a screaming 18 month old is "behaving like a little beast". It's just behaving like an 18 month old. A screaming 5 year old is behaving like a little beast. There's a big difference.

18 month olds are smarter than you give them credit for. They do respond to a firm voice and following that up by being firm. 18 month olds are not babies they are toddlers. If you do not start some form of discipline by this age you are going to be heading for some real bumpy roads ahead.
They respond quite well to no, sit, don't touch, and stop, if you teach them.
I did have 3 children and I did start discipline (no not whacking) about the time they started to crawl. And, they do indeed cry to be manipulative, as I said, they are very smart and can realize that "I cry, I get attention or whatever I want".
I did not say spanking, btw, I said a smack on the pamper. It does not need to hurt them, it makes a loud noise and that is often enough to get their attention so that you can begin the discipline process.

 

[GAIL HAYDEN]

Originally posted by chadfromdallas
The muzzle works....I'm telling you....it really does

LOL, well, that guy got arrested for tossing a glass of water in some screaming kid's face. Not sure what would happen with the muzzle.

 

[n2mm]

I agree with Anne (OP) on this one too. I know it's not possible, but I swear I was on that same flight 2 weeks ago. UGH!

OK, this is where the parents on my flight were wrong! The kid screamed for about 30 minutes---then the parents let the kid down, yes down to jump around, then the seatbeat light came on and back into the seat the kid went and the screaming began again (somthing like--I want down!!! and the uglinest of the things she yelled at her parents were embarassing). The only difference was this kid was at least 4 and had her own seat. So after another 30 minutes of screaming, crying and kicking, she was let down again. (My only joy was that one day she would be a teenager.....aaahhh, if only her parents could see what pattern they were setting now). I was about 5 rows behind, but the poor folks behind her, my heart went out for them. At first I thought this was a two year old, and first thought was ear pain. But no, this was a kid in need of discipline.

My Murphy's law is, anytime I see little ones crying or carrying on at the terminal....I never saw anything, because I will be punished and they will be sitting in front or, behind me, or beside me. I totally expect little ones on the planes, afterall we are going to WDW. And in 95% of the time the kids are well behaved or tolerable and the parents are usually responsive.

 

[twinmomplus2new]

I am totally on the fence with this one. First of all I have traveled with 2 babies many times. They have never had a scream session on any flight, I think I would have just about died if it was my child. I have had a child go literally insane in MCO, but I chose to not get on the flight I literally changed to the am and went upstairs to the HYatt to decompress Now I imagine if I had taken the flight it would have been very ugly for the duration. I think the most important factor here is the child should first and foremost be in his/her own seat. I do not agree with lap babies, and I can not stand people that let the kids run in the aisles! A long flight? yes they must get up a bit with you. Not be allowed to walk up and down while you watch from your seat. I have been on many flights were this is the case.
As to the mind set of an 18 month old yes they are toddlers and the ME is the controlling force, It is all about me, me, me, They do not listen to reason and usually actions are based on frustrations. When mine were 18 mts and we flew I admit I was worried, I also had them in car seats, had a dozen books, toys, snacks, and Tic tacs. Tic tacs are great they are tiny and really bright colored and a great bribe item for this age. One package takes along time to dole out. Bribery of course, But if they are content everything will go alot smoother. That long speech being said.... I have a neice who is 4. And I can not imagine being locked in a plane with her for 3 hours, That is totally differant it all depends on the age 18mts---to a 3 or 4 year old is a big differance.

 

[Niagara2]

When I was single and did alot of traveling I always thought - look at that kid, what is wrong with those parents letting them carry on like that....fast forward and I have my kids.....first I am lucky because we travel alot and they are great...much expereince since 6 months old. Once though one had an ear infection we didn't know about prior to flying. This poor child was in so much pain and was crying out in real pain. I didn't even know how bad it was until we got to Orlando and went to urgent care facility. While flying I was mortified what people thought and the noise they endured. I tried everything from sucking on candy, water bottle, tylenol, gum etc. He finally quieted down at landing as he tired himself out. Now we travel 4-6 times a year and after 30-50 flights this is the only time my kids were a problem. It was embarressing for me, i truly tried but the poor little 4 year old was in really bad pain. This happens. I was also told by a passenger on the way out to stay out of airplanes. That did it, I cried, out of frustration, embarassment and stress for my child. I know that this thread is for the parents who do not do anything or have ruly kids but screaming can be for more than one reason. Thank goodness the other 40 plus flights were smooth in the last 10 years. Now they have gameboys and DVD players and I can't get them to talk!! )LOL))

 

[castlegazer]

Originally posted by GEM
You do understand we are talking about a one and half year old here, right? At least that's what the first post said. Children that age are pretty much nonverbal and really don't respond too well to reasoning - or whacking. Now if this was a three year old or an 8 year old or whatever, I would be in complete agreement. But we're talking about a baby for goodness sake! Children that young don't cry to be manipulative or to drive you crazy. They cry because they are hurting, tired, or frustrated and that is the only way they have to express themselves. I can guarantee you that spanking an 18 month old is not going to do anything but make it cry louder. I honestly don't think you can say that a screaming 18 month old is "behaving like a little beast". It's just behaving like an 18 month old. A screaming 5 year old is behaving like a little beast. There's a big difference.

GEM - are you kidding me!? You must not have a one and half year old. Take it from a mother of one, they can be manipulative, very verbal, completely in control of their little bodies to a degree that is scary, they cry to just get attention at the drop of a hat. They are absolutely controlable and if you think they are not then you are in for a world of problems when they reach three. I am with the OP here. A length of time screaming is an accpetable occerence from a toddler being forced to sit in a lap, however, screaming for the entire flight is absolutely not. Get up - take them to the bathroom and discuss their screaming with them in their. Oh, and they do behave like beasts - hte terrible twos start at 18 months. 18 months old are also able to be reasoned with and attempts to have them be quiet are achievable with new toys and the like. I also am completely against letting children of that age sit in laps for flights regardless of the FAA's rules and regardless of the ability to pay for it by the parents.

Now as for medical issues causing the screaming - that is completely a different matter and not one that I think the OP is describing as the child was screaming to get down. When we fly I am constantly terrified that I will not get my son to swallow enough to ensure that his ears will be OK thus causing him to howl.

 

[wdwstar]

the parents could have gotten up and taken the child to the bathroom, or talked to a flight attendant for some suggestions, maybe just standing in the galley would have made a difference, just to give the child something different to look at might have helped.
but it sounded like the parents were passing the child back and forth on their laps, and we all know the tight space that is, i bet next time the parents fly with their child they also bring benadryll

 

[CarolA]

I flew with the same family not too long ago (LOL) For a two hour flight (that turned into a 3 plus hour due to a ground hold) the child did not have his own seat and had NO toys or things to play with. Mom asked the flight attendant for toys. They don't stock TOYS! Mom also wanted snacks. The only snacks they had were those snack mix things. She wanted crackers! She wanted apple juice, they only have cran-apple etc..... That Flight Attendant button rang every 5 minutes.

I had NO sympathy for the parents. They got on with designer carry ons, mom was dripping with jewels. They could sell a diamond and buy the kid a seat. The child was just too big to want to sit in their laps. (The giveaway was dad saying, "He is not much of a sit and cuddle child".)
The parents made no attempt to quite the child instead trying to blame the airline for not being prepared. WHAT? DID THE AIRLINE VOLUNTEER TO RAISE YOUR CHILD? The man next to them finally told them to quit calling the FA, that it was their job to deal with the child.

I have LOTS of friends with small children. Even if they don't travel much they do seem to know to bring snacks and toys!!!! They never leave home without these things!

As for kicking kids.... One of my coworkers reached behind her seat, grabbed the kids leg and leaned back and told him to stop! Startled the kid and mother so much that the kid stopped. (Co-worker, also told the Mother that it was her job to stop the kicking, but if needed the co-worker would hold his leg all the way to Atlanta!) LOL!

 

[goofy4tink]

I always wonder what these parents do on long car trips. Do their kids sit in the carseat or are they allowed to crawl all over the car? If your child is having a medical issue, then so be it. Nothing you can do. You could.....heave a huge loud sigh, loudly explain that it's an earache (or whatever), you wish you could change it and you're very sorry to disturb everyone. A little humor goes a long way. Most of us have been there, done that. But, a child that just plain out doesn't want to sit in mommy's lap? Want's to run in the aisles? Nope, no way. Get that kid his own seat, belt him in, tell him the plane doesn't fly if the belt isn't on. Bring snacks, games, loveys. Yes, you paid your fare, but so did I. I shouldn't have to listen to a child screaming just because he's not getting his own way!! And yes, an 18 month old is certainly capeable of that. My dd, now 27, was a very good manipulator at that age. I think it's only fair that she now works in a daycare/preschool situation!! (I'm a very vindictive mom!!)

 

[GEM]

Originally posted by castlegazer
They are absolutely controlable and if you think they are not then you are in for a world of problems when they reach three. . . .18 months old are also able to be reasoned with and attempts to have them be quiet are achievable with new toys and the like.

Yes, they are controllable under normal circumstances and they are able to understand and respond to commands like, "no", "sit down",, "don't touch", etc. And yes, they do respond very well to distraction like new toys, snacks, games, funny faces, and all that. However, as someone who worked with kids that age for 5 years while I was working on my degree, I have yet to see an 18 month old who can be "reasoned with" while in the midst of a complete hysterical meltdown because they are hurting, sick, exhausted, overly frustrated, etc.

 

[ducklite]

The parents passed the kid back and forth like he was a hot potato and neither wanted to deal with him. The kid was verbal, and between the screams, "DOWN DOWN DOWN" was the regular phrase. This was not a kid in pain--a kid in pain has a different cry, and of course I would be sympathetic to that. This was an uncomfortable kid throwing a hissy fit because he didn't want to sit on a lap.

I don't blame the kid, I wouldn't want to sit on someones lap through the entire trip. I blame the parents. This kid must have weighed close to 30 lbs. Too big to be a lap baby for 2 1/2 hours.

Anne

 

[GEM]

Thanks for posting back about the original situation. It does sound miserable for everybody involved! I agree about not blaming the kid. The poor baby was just frustrated because he didn't understand why he couldn't get down. Children that age are just becoming very mobile and independent, and they HATE to have their mobility restricted. It does sound like he would have been better off in a carseat. Maybe he would have at least understood that he had to stay put! I still don't see a brat or a beast here, just a normal 18 month old in a bad situation.

Hey, by the way, LOVE the house! What a view from the back!! Can we come and stay in your guest bedroom - if we promise not to bring any screaming babies, of course?

 

[ritzbuddy]

Gem is correct, you cannot reason with an 18 month old. That is just it, there should no debate, no reasoning, just the firm expectation that the only behavior allowed is quiet. Tantrums continue because they have worked for the child in the past. If there is no reward, they stop.

We took a 3 hr flight with our active 15 month old many years back, his first flight. We made the mistake of having him on our laps to save money. Big mistake. He wanted space, his own seat. He was fussy & wiggly, but we did our best to distract him, plus make it perfectly clear, he wasn't going anywhere. By the end of the flight I was a pile of nerves from dealing with him, but at least those around us didn't have much to complain about. Parents deal with it.

I would have been mortified if my kids made extended scenes in public. There were times DH took each one into the bathroom of a restaurant for a face 2 face confrontation. They learned that when we say "stop", we really mean it. Babies, toddlers, teens, they all learn basically the same way. Criminey, even our dog understands 'No!' And don't flame me for comparing our kids to a dog!

 

[wdwstar]

i too love the house, i so jealous


im a dvc member and that is as close as us owning a home in florida, it would be great to live there all year long with that great view.

if i did, would i keep my dvc ? you bet, i need pampering to once in awhile, otherwise it wouldnt feel like a vacation.


but getting back to the subject,

maybe after that experience those parents will think twice before making plans to fly, without some kind of precautions