UAW Concessions?

[Galahad]

I think that you are in the minority here at least. There are many posts here were people defend non-union companies being bailed out by saying that they are not being forced to pay salaries because of a contract but yet even with AIG being non-union, they are continuing to pay obscene salaries to the people that got them into the mess to being with. If it's not a union/non-union issue, why is it that many are not calling for restructuring of the salaries of all of the companies that have received money from a bailout?

FWIW (and I don't know if the reference was to me or not). I have not defended other bail outs at all. I merely attacked the auto bailout and pointed out that they are different. That in no way implies that I think a bail out of AIG is OK while the others are not.

Further, I don't advocate that the wages of current union workers be forceably changed. Only that while the union is there nothing can be done individually with labor costs. Getting rid of the union does not imply that ANY individual's pay would be changed.

 

[fkj2]

IIf it's not a union/non-union issue, why is it that many are not calling for restructuring of the salaries of all of the companies that have received money from a bailout?

Probably in part because the government slipped one past the taxpayer...a done deal before anyone could complain. Besides, who listens (much) to the taxpayer? It's just since this credit meltdown started have so many Americans contacted their representatives--and a few who aren't their representatives--to complain. Long overdue IMHO, self included.

Frankly, I'd not only like to restructure AIG, but every entity that received taxpayer money.

FURTHERMORE, I'd really like to restructure the pay and benefits of government officials. I think it's obscene that members of Congress, the Cabinet (esp. the Treasury Secretary), etc., etc. collect on a federal health care plan while 47 million (or so) are without ANY coverage or who are paying their own premiums (as I am). Hey, they "got theirs." Who cares if common everyday folks are headed for medical bankruptcy? Not to mention that once those elected officials serve ONE term (I believe) they are entitled to a forever pension. Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

Something ain't right here. But I guess I digress from the topic.

 

[Kermit1225]

I have tried really hard not to post but frankly I am tired of sitting here silent. My Husband is a UAW Chrysler employee and I am scared to death of becoming one of the many in financial ruin. We have three kids and it scares me that we will not be able to give them the basic necessities. We do not live lavishly but I am afraid of what we will become if these companies do not receive some kind of help. There is a large misunderstanding from the general public as to how much UAW employess make. Yes they make good money, I won't lie. BUt everyone seems to slam on the wages and say that we need to make concessions as to our benifits. Concessions have been made in the past and it did NOTHING! No, we do not pay a monthly premium for our insurance coverage... but EVERY doctor visit is "OUT OF POCKET". We have no co-pay and no deductable. That gets quite costly. Now there is also a plus side...surgeries are generally covered (but how often do people actually have those versus doctors visits with 3 kids). Lets not forget Dental and Eye care. NOT THAT GREAT EITHER. Now, please don't think that I have forgotten that I am at least fortunate enough to have these coverages, but I just really want people to understand that our benefits aren't as great as everyone thinks.

What really needs to happen is that the CEO's and the other "yahoos" need a restructuring. They need to give back some of the millions that they get paid so that people like my husband whose income is just over 60,000 can keep his home and we can continue to feed our children.

Another thing that people need to understand is that if "The Big 3" file for bankruptcy, no they will be able to wipe out some of there debt, but what happens to the supply companies they owe that money to? They then fall out because they can't pay their bills and their employess. If something is not done to help the automotive industry it will be a domino effect. Change needs to start at the top of the ladder.

Just as someone said earlier...labor costs only make up around 7 or 8% of the price of a vehicle. Why, should the factory workers who have to work in 100 degree temperatures, while inhaling a vast amount of chemicles, and deal with the after effects or the grueling physical labor, be the ones to have to make the conscessions. That should be for the stuffed shirts up in the fancy offices who live in the million dollar homes and can actually take their children on vacation and pay for there college education so they do not have to subject themselves to the "factory life". I grew up in a "poor" environment and have been extremely greatfull to be able to give my kids the money to play sports, and money for school lunchs. I just hope these small things dont come to an end.

I apologize to those who get offended by my long rambling, but I really just wanted to tell the story from the point of view of "a person on the inside". To many people want to argue about what should be done and seem to go on and on about the union and the workers wages and they just dont understand the full picture.

 

[#1hockeymom]

I have tried really hard not to post but frankly I am tired of sitting here silent. My Husband is a UAW Chrysler employee and I am scared to death of becoming one of the many in financial ruin. We have three kids and it scares me that we will not be able to give them the basic necessities. We do not live lavishly but I am afraid of what we will become if these companies do not receive some kind of help. There is a large misunderstanding from the general public as to how much UAW employess make. Yes they make good money, I won't lie. BUt everyone seems to slam on the wages and say that we need to make concessions as to our benifits. Concessions have been made in the past and it did NOTHING! No, we do not pay a monthly premium for our insurance coverage... but EVERY doctor visit is "OUT OF POCKET". We have no co-pay and no deductable. That gets quite costly. Now there is also a plus side...surgeries are generally covered (but how often do people actually have those versus doctors visits with 3 kids). Lets not forget Dental and Eye care. NOT THAT GREAT EITHER. Now, please don't think that I have forgotten that I am at least fortunate enough to have these coverages, but I just really want people to understand that our benefits aren't as great as everyone thinks.

What really needs to happen is that the CEO's and the other "yahoos" need a restructuring. They need to give back some of the millions that they get paid so that people like my husband whose income is just over 60,000 can keep his home and we can continue to feed our children.

Another thing that people need to understand is that if "The Big 3" file for bankruptcy, no they will be able to wipe out some of there debt, but what happens to the supply companies they owe that money to? They then fall out because they can't pay their bills and their employess. If something is not done to help the automotive industry it will be a domino effect. Change needs to start at the top of the ladder.

Just as someone said earlier...labor costs only make up around 7 or 8% of the price of a vehicle. Why, should the factory workers who have to work in 100 degree temperatures, while inhaling a vast amount of chemicles, and deal with the after effects or the grueling physical labor, be the ones to have to make the conscessions. That should be for the stuffed shirts up in the fancy offices who live in the million dollar homes and can actually take their children on vacation and pay for there college education so they do not have to subject themselves to the "factory life". I grew up in a "poor" environment and have been extremely greatfull to be able to give my kids the money to play sports, and money for school lunchs. I just hope these small things dont come to an end.

I apologize to those who get offended by my long rambling, but I really just wanted to tell the story from the point of view of "a person on the inside". To many people want to argue about what should be done and seem to go on and on about the union and the workers wages and they just dont understand the full picture.

I'm scared right with you! I can't imagine my state without the big three or the tier 1/2/3 suppliers... let alone the businesses that will go down in that domino. So many jobs lost and families affected. SE Michigan has already taken a HUGE hit with unemployment inching quickly towards 10 percent for the state, and higher in many individual cities. We can't take anymore.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

...labor costs only make up around 7 or 8% of the price of a vehicle.

I don't think that the direct labor costs are the core problem. The problem is all of the non-producing costs. Those include some labor costs (jobs bank, restrictive work rules making employees less productive, unfunded retirement expenses, etc) and the include a lot of other costs (debt servicing, capital invested in excess plant capacity).

If GM was free to do whatever it wished with the exception of cutting current pay of current workers, they could probably whether this storm. Unfortunately, they can't. They can't lay people off in a way that saves them money in the near term. They don't have nearly the same freedom the restructure their work processes as the transplants have. They've got major structural problems that won't be fixed by a bailout. Without a major restructuring, it doesn't matter what concessions the current workers take.

 

[dvcgirl]

I have tried really hard not to post but frankly I am tired of sitting here silent. My Husband is a UAW Chrysler employee and I am scared to death of becoming one of the many in financial ruin. We have three kids and it scares me that we will not be able to give them the basic necessities. We do not live lavishly but I am afraid of what we will become if these companies do not receive some kind of help. There is a large misunderstanding from the general public as to how much UAW employess make. Yes they make good money, I won't lie. BUt everyone seems to slam on the wages and say that we need to make concessions as to our benifits. Concessions have been made in the past and it did NOTHING! No, we do not pay a monthly premium for our insurance coverage... but EVERY doctor visit is "OUT OF POCKET". We have no co-pay and no deductable. That gets quite costly. Now there is also a plus side...surgeries are generally covered (but how often do people actually have those versus doctors visits with 3 kids). Lets not forget Dental and Eye care. NOT THAT GREAT EITHER. Now, please don't think that I have forgotten that I am at least fortunate enough to have these coverages, but I just really want people to understand that our benefits aren't as great as everyone thinks.

What really needs to happen is that the CEO's and the other "yahoos" need a restructuring. They need to give back some of the millions that they get paid so that people like my husband whose income is just over 60,000 can keep his home and we can continue to feed our children.

Another thing that people need to understand is that if "The Big 3" file for bankruptcy, no they will be able to wipe out some of there debt, but what happens to the supply companies they owe that money to? They then fall out because they can't pay their bills and their employess. If something is not done to help the automotive industry it will be a domino effect. Change needs to start at the top of the ladder.

Just as someone said earlier...labor costs only make up around 7 or 8% of the price of a vehicle. Why, should the factory workers who have to work in 100 degree temperatures, while inhaling a vast amount of chemicles, and deal with the after effects or the grueling physical labor, be the ones to have to make the conscessions. That should be for the stuffed shirts up in the fancy offices who live in the million dollar homes and can actually take their children on vacation and pay for there college education so they do not have to subject themselves to the "factory life". I grew up in a "poor" environment and have been extremely greatfull to be able to give my kids the money to play sports, and money for school lunchs. I just hope these small things dont come to an end.

I apologize to those who get offended by my long rambling, but I really just wanted to tell the story from the point of view of "a person on the inside". To many people want to argue about what should be done and seem to go on and on about the union and the workers wages and they just dont understand the full picture.

I can understand what you're going through to a certain degree. My DH was laid off in 2003 thanks to the dot.com bubble bust. It was scary to a certain degree.

My Dad put in 30+ years as a teamster with UPS, so I'm quite familiar with the "union side" of things as well. When he went on strike, he took several small jobs to try and make ends meet, but we still ended up on food stamps for a couple of months during my childhood. Still, UPS is a company that a very *good* example of how union and big business can co-exist successfully. UPS has been profitable and growing for years....my Dad made a good living, and has a nice pension. For a guy who never went to college, he did really well. But these types of jobs are really a dying breed.

The major issue with the Big Three.....is that they're not making any money. I can imagine how frustrating it is to hear that the upper management is making million dollar salaries, but really, that's just a drop in the bucket. They're losing *Billions*. Chrysler in particular is terribly positioned because the large majority of their business is in the US. They didn't get "global" enough to make it in our new world economy and they're not making the kinds of cars that many Americans will want in the future.

The credit freeze was thawing a tiny bit up until this last week but now we're heading back into a deep freeze....and this is terrible news for the Big Three. For the entire economy in general actually.

I do think that the Big Three will get this 25 Billion "bridge loan", in the short term. However, they're all going to be getting a *lot* smaller....lots of layoffs and plant closures are coming....otherwise they don't survive at all. That's the best case scenario.

I wish the news was better for the Big Three and the upper mid-west in general, but I don't think that it is. I know that it's got to be very, very hard to be in the position that you're in, and I'm not trying to sound flippant at all, but if I was in your shoes, I'd begin to work very hard at changing careers.

Every indicator points to the Big Three downsizing in a big way with future jobs paying far less....with far fewer benefits. I'd hate to have my destiny tied to one of these companies....

 

[S. C.]

I don't think that the direct labor costs are the core problem. The problem is all of the non-producing costs. Those include some labor costs (jobs bank, restrictive work rules making employees less productive, unfunded retirement expenses, etc) and the include a lot of other costs (debt servicing, capital invested in excess plant capacity).

If GM was free to do whatever it wished with the exception of cutting current pay of current workers, they could probably whether this storm. Unfortunately, they can't. They can't lay people off in a way that saves them money in the near term. They don't have nearly the same freedom the restructure their work processes as the transplants have. They've got major structural problems that won't be fixed by a bailout. Without a major restructuring, it doesn't matter what concessions the current workers take.

If you get hurt on the job, do you think it is alright for your company to fire you since you are no longer as productive as you were when hired?
What about my friend who was running her machine and something from above by the ceiling fell on her knocking her completely out? Should she be fired since she is no longer as productive as she was when hired? She is a very hard worker and works circles around most but does have some restrictions because of it. It was not HER fault that this happen!

When I hired in the GM plant I'm at in 1979 there were 12,000 plus workers. now we are less than 3000. Over 9000 workers have either retired, died, or went elsewhere and that's just at one plant.

 

[sunnyday123]

I am also in the camp of not bailing out unions. There is no more cradle to grave companies.

If over $1k over every car sale has to go to unions, that is crazy!

Don’t support them one ounce

Auto workers do make upwards of $60 a hour, which I wouldn't have a problem with IF the unions weren't so ridiculous.

THey have a "my way or the highway"mentality. Alot of people here are going to be out of jobs, and yet the CEO's flew in on their private jets to ask for money?!??

 

[S. C.]

Auto workers do make upwards of $60 a hour, which I wouldn't have a problem with IF the unions weren't so ridiculous.

THey have a "my way or the highway"mentality. Alot of people here are going to be out of jobs, and yet the CEO's flew in on their private jets to ask for money?!??

So now it is the unions fault that the CEO's made that choice?



ETA: The CEO's are the ones that have company paid private jets! BUT...it is the overpaid union workers that are responsible for this mess! OK

 

[ScottJ]

Auto workers do make upwards of $60 a hour, which I wouldn't have a problem with IF the unions weren't so ridiculous.

They have a "my way or the highway"mentality. Alot of people here are going to be out of jobs, and yet the CEO's flew in on their private jets to ask for money?!??

Just to be clear, they do not make $60 an hour.

It is widely stated and accepted that with the current union contract average union employee make $75 an hour including benefits. Toyota has an average compensation of $48.00 an hour which includes benefits.

The BIG 3 executives and union have renegotiated there contacts already! These contracts take effect in 2010. That's why they are asking for a BRIDGE LOAN. After these contracts take effect in 2010. After these changes are made, average union compensation will make $58 an hour. It's not the same as foreign automakers but it is a significant change and closes the gap.

As far as the CEOs go, if you haven't lived in the Detroit area for the past 10 to 30 years, you have no idea of the jobs they have done. I wouldn't fire a one although a symbolically taking a severely reduced pay would help.

Wagoner has endured many problems at other companies due to strikes, bankruptcies and an economic collapse in the financials (GMAC was not a subprime lender). Every-time GM had a really good outlook, they had to take a one-time charge for this or that on their quarterly's.

Mullally has a great job. Ford was in horrible condition in 2006. He came in and changed everything at Ford. He said at the congressional hearing Ford may not need any governmental assistance as long as the economy doesn't get worse. BUT, Ford went out and got $19 billion in credit before all the the credit in the world dried up.

Mercedes, Cerberus and Nardelli have all learned it's hard to build autos in volume. Mercedes could build luxury cars, commercial trucks and other heavy industry items but they couldn't build cars in mass. Cerberus and Nardelli are just learning the business.

It's not the business model! Unions have taken cuts! It's not the executives! IT IS THE ECONOMY! It has not been this bad since the great depression!!!

If it was the unions, if it was the executives wouldn't Toyota, Honda and Nissan done better in October sales than the did. Toyota had sales fall 23%, Honda's fell 25% and Nissan's fell 34%.

IT'S THE ECONOMY!!!

 

[dvcgirl]

It's not the business model! Unions have taken cuts! It's not the executives! IT IS THE ECONOMY! It has not been this bad since the great depression!!!

If it was the unions, if it was the executives wouldn't Toyota, Honda and Nissan done better in October sales than the did. Toyota had sales fall 23%, Honda's fell 25% and Nissan's fell 34%.

IT'S THE ECONOMY!!!

If it's simply the economy......how is it that GM has lost 73 Billion dollars in the last four years?

This is much more than the economy. This horrific economy may in fact prove to be too much for very weak companies like GM and Ford to weather.....but it is far more than the economy. You simply need to look at Honda and Toyota....they're hurting like everyone else, but they'll make it because they're much stronger.

Read this article in the New York Times about GM's "best case scenario"......the best case scenario is going to look an awful lot like bankruptcy, and GM is going to have to get a *lot* smaller to even have a chance of making it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/business/22nocera.html?pagewanted=1&em

 

[sunnyday123]

So now it is the unions fault that the CEO's made that choice?



ETA: The CEO's are the ones that have company paid private jets! BUT...it is the overpaid union workers that are responsible for this mess! OK

umm...not what I meant...

Just to be clear, they do not make $60 an hour.


IT'S THE ECONOMY!!!

Actually, you're right. My XBF made more than that.

 

[ScottJ]

Taxpayers should do what is in their interest, which is to let the industry succeed or fail on its own.

It's called capitalism and that is what this country was founded on economically.

This was the post that I responded to saying our Country was not founded upon capitalism. Our Country was based upon a strong central government model using protectionism (tariffs) to protect our Country's industry (small as it may be). If you have read anything on our founders, Adams, Hamilton (he believed in carrying national debt) and Washington would most likely would have been in favor of loaning money to our industries instead of letting them fail.

 

[ScottJ]

He made more than $60 hour pay as a UAW line worker? That would mean his base was more than $125,000. I live in Detroit area. I know 15 line workers and about 20 engineers personally. NONE of them have a $125,000 base. Some of the engineers during good times made in excess of 6 figures with bonus but none of the line workers even the speciality trades (not there actual title) made 6 figures with overtime and bonuses in the best of times.

Your XBF most be one hell of a worker.

It's average $75 an hour including compensation NOT a $60 an hour wage. The top wage is $28 an hour.

 

[sunnyday123]

He made more than $60 hour pay as a UAW line worker? That would mean his base was more than $125,000. I live in Detroit area. I know 15 line workers and about 20 engineers personally. NONE of them have a $125,000 base. Some of the engineers during good times made in excess of 6 figures with bonus but none of the line workers even the speciality trades (not there actual title) made 6 figures with overtime and bonuses in the best of times.

Your XBF most be one hell of a worker.

It's average $75 an hour including compensation NOT a $60 an hour wage. The top wage is $28 an hour.

blah blah blah.....

 

[minnie61650]

blah blah blah.....

I do not understand your comment.

Perhaps you ment no comment?

 

[dvcgirl]

He made more than $60 hour pay as a UAW line worker? That would mean his base was more than $125,000. I live in Detroit area. I know 15 line workers and about 20 engineers personally. NONE of them have a $125,000 base. Some of the engineers during good times made in excess of 6 figures with bonus but none of the line workers even the speciality trades (not there actual title) made 6 figures with overtime and bonuses in the best of times.

Your XBF most be one hell of a worker.

It's average $75 an hour including compensation NOT a $60 an hour wage. The top wage is $28 an hour.

Still too much.....they'll need to cut that in half to compete with the foreign auto makers.

 

[veraletta]

unions are:

A trade union or labor union is an organization of workers who have banded together to achieve common goals in key areas such as wages, hours, and working conditions. The trade union, through its leadership, bargains with the employer on behalf of union members (rank and file members) and negotiates labor contracts (Collective bargaining) with employers. This may include the negotiation of wages, work rules, complaint procedures, rules governing hiring, firing and promotion of workers, benefits, workplace safety and policies. The agreements negotiated by the union leaders are binding on the rank and file members and the employer and in some cases on other non-member workers.

These organizations may comprise individual workers, professionals, past workers, or the unemployed. The most common, but by no means only, purpose of these organizations is "maintaining or improving the conditions of their employment"[1]


Now that you know what a union is tell me why you think the union is the reason that cars maker are going bankrupt?

 

[ScottJ]

If it's simply the economy......how is it that GM has lost 73 Billion dollars in the last four years?

This is much more than the economy. This horrific economy may in fact prove to be too much for very weak companies like GM and Ford to weather.....but it is far more than the economy. You simply need to look at Honda and Toyota....they're hurting like everyone else, but they'll make it because they're much stronger.

Read this article in the New York Times about GM's "best case scenario"......the best case scenario is going to look an awful lot like bankruptcy, and GM is going to have to get a *lot* smaller to even have a chance of making it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/business/22nocera.html?pagewanted=1&em

I read the article and in the 2nd paragraph it stated, "Car sales have slowed to a crawl." This is an once in a lifetime economic period. Unfortunately, for some of our parents and grandparents, this is their second once in a lifetime economic event.

As far as $73 billion losses in the past 4 years as I stated, GM has had to deal with many one-time quarterly charges. Example, even though GM had $39 billion in losses in the third quarter of this year most of that was due to having to write off unused credits. These were non-cash losses.

Don't get me wrong, GM is in bad shape but most of it is due to economic conditions not its business model. You just don't have a 45% decline in sales and it not be economic.

Sure the foreign automakers are leaner and can compete better in these economic times. I know things have to be adjusted to compete with the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese but that's more in the hands of the Government than the BIG 3. All three of these countries manipulate their monetary exchange rates but our country would never enforce trade laws. Let's face it, if they did very few Americans would pay $4000 more for an import how many would actually buy Honda or Toyota? Or for that matter, they would have never got a foot hold here in the first place.

I am perplexed Americans aren't angry that we allowed unfair trade into our Country. That we allow the sell off of our Country, only to be employees & servants to the rest of the world. I maybe could see the BIG 3 losing to foreigners on a fair ground and most Americans being fine with it. But we don't compete on fair grounds, it is next to impossible to sell a US car in Korea or Japan. I would think Americans would be more angry at other countries unfairly using the system against us than Americans trying to make a living.

 

[S. C.]

Still too much.....they'll need to cut that in half to compete with the foreign auto makers.

The CEO's are the ones that have company paid private jets and the multimillion dollar bonuses! BUT...it is the union workers that are overpaid and causing car prices to be too high!