TSA mess and the police

[skater]

Honestly, I think it is because people don't know what to expect and are believing stories they heard of people that use words like "groping" and "invaded". Some people seem to think TSA are molesting children and getting off on the naked scans. Plus, they don't like the radiation the scans give. Even though it is equal to 3 minutes of a cross country flight.

I don't see the upset either. But....I guess that why there are two sides to an opinion?

Its also possible that people have different stories because tsa officers are human - some good/some bad. Interactions will be different depending on the officer. That's part of the trouble I have with giving them that much power over me.

 

[CathrynRose]

And the smarter people are, the LESS likely they are to fall for "groping", "nudeoscopes" and all the other insanity that the people in tinfoil hats are screaming!

.

Wow.

Those of us NOT okay with the newest security measures are dumb? Got it.

 

[anna_chronistic]

Wow.

Those of us NOT okay with the newest security measures are dumb? Got it.

I was offended at first, too, but then I saw it was from chicagodisneyfan, and I realized he/she is probably a Cubs fan, and thus constantly demonstrates severely impaired judgment and cannot be held accountable for what he/she thinks or says.

I'm a Cardinals fan.

All joking aside, though, that was an insulting statement, chicagodisneyfan, and I hope it was merely thoughtless and not intentional.

 

[jodifla]

Pat down was no big deal at all. Did not touch any private parts and she was very professional.

And would you still be happy if they had touched private areas? Because clearly, they can and are. Just not you.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

I was offended at first, too, but then I saw it was from chicagodisneyfan, and I realized he/she is probably a Cubs fan, and thus constantly demonstrates severely impaired judgment and cannot be held accountable for what he/she thinks or says.

I'm a Cardinals fan.

All joking aside, though, that was an insulting statement, chicagodisneyfan, and I hope it was merely thoughtless and not intentional.

Cub hater here! I am a Sox fan.

Nope, I really think the people screaming the loudest are paranoid and wearing tinfoil hats. And very short-sighted - cancelling all travel?! Not me, I am going to Florida, Bahamas, France, NY all in the next 6 months. I will have a terrific time.

Now, if one wants to argue this is invasive and a human rights violation - that I could support. I do value my rights. But the argument some are chosing

But to go on about radiation when the SUN emits radiation, flying exposes you to radiation, etc and continue the conversation into molestation is to me hysterical.

Many of the loudest people on this thread don't fly that much anyway (which I find funny too).

 

[sbell111]

This man is the pilot and we are worried about him having a weapon? He's the one guy on board that I want armed.

I've known far too many pilots to believe that one should be armed solely because he is a pilot.

 

[anna_chronistic]

Cub hater here! I am a Sox fan.

Nope, I really think the people screaming the loudest are paranoid and wearing tinfoil hats. And very short-sighted - cancelling all travel?! Not me, I am going to Florida, Bahamas, France, NY all in the next 6 months. I will have a terrific time.

Now, if one wants to argue this is invasive and a human rights violation - that I could support. I do value my rights. But the argument some are chosing

But to go on about radiation when the SUN emits radiation, flying exposes you to radiation, etc and continue the conversation into molestation is to me hysterical.

Many of the loudest people on this thread don't fly that much anyway (which I find funny too).

OK, as a Sox fan, you've earned some of my respect back. And then you lost a little again by insisting on calling people with concerns -- at least SOME of which you admit are legitimate -- "paranoid" and calling the fears of molestation "hysterical."

Through the nearly-50 pages of this thread, the arguments have absolutely run the gamut: invasion of privacy, inappropriate touching, radiation, abuse of power, violation of the 4th Amendment, the slippery slope these procedures continue to lead us down, etc. These are not all paranoid people.

Honestly? I'm not too concerned about the radiation, simply b/c I expect to die of cancer well before my 3-score-and-10, as most of my family members do. However, I have serious, serious problems with being scanned because I do not want a stranger to see me naked, nor do I want to subject myself to the possibility that the government will retain my scanned image or that an employee will do so for kicks. Do you really think that's not a possibility?

I know, some people have said, "Heck, I don't care if they have a naked pic of me. I'll drop trou without the scanner and walk through naked if they want." Fine, but I am NOT one of those people, and I absolutely believe it is a violation of privacy, modesty, and the 4th Amendment to tell me I must do so simply because I choose a particular -- perfectly legal and normal -- mode of transportation that I am willing to pay for. Reasonable searches are fine. I just want, as I've said before, a clear, compelling argument that indicates that invasive pat-downs or full-body scanners ARE reasonable.

And if you can prove they are reasonable, we come back to the slippery slope. Body cavities are a reasonable (for people intent on doing harm, for drug mules, etc.) place to hide things. Must we all submit to body cavity searches next? I think we need to take a stand now, before it gets to that point.

 

[sbell111]

... And if you can prove they are reasonable, we come back to the slippery slope. Body cavities are a reasonable (for people intent on doing harm, for drug mules, etc.) place to hide things. Must we all submit to body cavity searches next? I think we need to take a stand now, before it gets to that point.

I disagree. I don't believe that its appropriate to 'take a stand' if the searches are reasonable, as I believe they currently are. If searches later become unreasonable, I will take a stand, likely by choosing not to fly commercial.

 

[JLTraveling]

Cub hater here! I am a Sox fan.

Nope, I really think the people screaming the loudest are paranoid and wearing tinfoil hats. And very short-sighted - cancelling all travel?! Not me, I am going to Florida, Bahamas, France, NY all in the next 6 months. I will have a terrific time.

Now, if one wants to argue this is invasive and a human rights violation - that I could support. I do value my rights. But the argument some are chosing

But to go on about radiation when the SUN emits radiation, flying exposes you to radiation, etc and continue the conversation into molestation is to me hysterical.

Many of the loudest people on this thread don't fly that much anyway (which I find funny too).

So I happen to be one of the loudest people on the thread. And I've argued about invasiveness, human rights violations, radiation AND molestation. Does that make me someone you can support or someone wearing a tinfoil hat?

BTW, the perception of molestation is just as psychologically traumatic as the reality. I've worked extensively with children who were sexually abused. I can just picture trying to tell the boy whose parents prostituted him (to men) from ages 7-14 (when he was finally removed from the home), or the six year old girl who laid flat on her back with her skirt hiked up whenever she wanted attention (because that was the only way she ever got any at home) that it's okay for a government official to touch them.

Or I could tell my father, who due to medical conditions has HAD to receive enough X-rays, CT scans and MRIs in the past five years that his doctor has expressed concern about the cumulative effects, not to worry, the government says the amount of radiation in the scanner is safe.

Sorry you find it hysterical that some people are coping with very serious real-world issues that make these concerns very real.

 

[Tigger2252]

I don't fly often, maybe that's why I don't see what the big deal is. I don't have a problem with the screening. I'm more afraid of explosives than the scan or the pat down. I can understand if some people aren't comfortable with it. Luckily there are other modes of transportation available (trains, buses, automobiles) for those who don't want to be screened. Nobody is forced to fly.

 

[jodifla]

I don't fly often, maybe that's why I don't see what the big deal is. I don't have a problem with the screening. I'm more afraid of explosives than the scan or the pat down. I can understand if some people aren't comfortable with it. Luckily there are other modes of transportation available (trains, buses, automobiles) for those who don't want to be screened. Nobody is forced to fly.

Very shortsighted reasoning. "Hey, it doesn't affect me, what do I care?"

 

[Tigger2252]

Very shortsighted reasoning. "Hey, it doesn't affect me, what do I care?"

My post said I wouldn't have a problem with being screened. Someone who refuses to be screened and gets on the flight I'm on most certainly DOES affect me. I simply said that if they didn't want to be screened they are free to seek other modes of transportation. They are not forced to travel by air.

 

[surfgirl]

I can't believe after 40-some pages no one has suggested the obvious answer:

don't fly commercial, fly private planes.

Procedures may have changed, but last time I flew in a private jet, it was awesome to pull up at the terminal (with security free private parking) about 15-20 minutes before the flight departure.

 

[JLTraveling]

I can't believe after 40-some pages no one has suggested the obvious answer:

don't fly commercial, fly private planes.

Procedures may have changed, but last time I flew in a private jet, it was awesome to pull up at the terminal (with security free private parking) about 15-20 minutes before the flight departure.

And as soon as I win the lottery, I'll get right on that.

 

[gate_pourri]

I flew again yesterday. ORD-DCA, in and out, in a day and I have to again say that I can't find a problem with it. Trust me, I WANT to find a problem with it! I am a strong conservative, anti-big government, etc... I should have a problem with this, but I have now flown 2 round trip US Flights and 1 International-US flight since this was started and I cannot understand the hoopla.

I have gone through ORD three times, DCA once and LAX once (plus many EU airports) since October 15th and I have not had anything but appropriate scanning. I have gone through the whole-body x-ray once, have had the "new" patdown twice and went through the old x-ray twice.

The only part that I can imagine would be even construed as invasive was at LAX, was when 'the girls' were briefly patted. IE - a hand briefly lifted (for lack of a better word) 'girl a' than a briefly patted the top of the 'girl a' and than the same was done with 'girl b'. Than she put her hand between the two. and that was it.

 

[overlyspoiled4sure]

I wasn't going to read through 47 pages so am not sure if cargo searching has been mentioned. I was under the impression the last problem was explosives in a cargo plane.

So I sure hope cargo is searched too, if not by being opened, at least with x-ray.

I'm also done flying. Thank goodness we did get to WDW twice & a vacation to TX once.

 

[surfgirl]

lots of discussion around whether people will continue to fly or not.

I thought this an interesting statistic. Somewhat OT, I'll admit, but interesting.

A 1996 Government Accountability Office report found that the average fare per passenger mile was about 9% lower in 1994 than in 1979. Between 1976 and 1990 the paid fare had declined approximately 30% in inflation-adjusted terms.
source: wiki (not always reliable, but it is referring to a GAO study)
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Auto is the primary means of transportation used by leisure visitors (76%) who traveled for leisure purposes between August 2008 and July 2009. The percentage of leisure visitors traveling by auto varies by income, generation and other demographic characteristics. (source: travelhorizons, July 2009)
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International travel to the United States is one of the nation’s leading exports. (source: IVIS, poweroftravel dot org)
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Business travel is important to the commercial airline industry for two major reasons. First, it commands a much higher average ticket cost, approximately 5 times higher than the average leisure fare. Second, business travel is less elastic changes in macro-economic trends than leisure travel, which may be considered a form of luxury.

In the past 24 months, leisure fares have dropped slightly, ranging from $110 to $100 . In the same time frame, business fares have increased significantly, from around $350 to $500 .
source (wikinvest)
-----------------
what do all these things mean ?

- business travelers are where the profit is. I don't know how much business travelers will reduce their flying due to new security measures. Maybe for drives of 4 hr. or less they will now drive instead of flying, but most have already made that switch (to drive instead of flying for closer cities).

- international travelers to the US is big. I would be more concerned about the impact to our economy of this new visa/landing card change than the increased security. While I can't speak for Asian/African/S. American cities (or Antartica... and I can't remember Australia!) , I know most European flights have more stringent security measures than we do. Those passengers will probably be unaffected since they are used to similar security measures.

- Auto is already the leading mode of transportation for leisure travelers. Of course, it depends on the study, what is a vacation, etc etc, but I was surprised how high the number is.

---------------------
Again, I'll state my opinion that calling these measures "groping" (not grouping : ) ), "assault", "fondling", "invasive" is doing a dis-service to
1) people who have been through a traumatic situation or sexual assault
2) any future victim.

I also believe it is conditioning people to use of those words. In my mind, if someone was found guilty of one of those terms, I would have an immediate negative reaction. I've been through a "pat-down" and it is nowhere similar to the violated feeling of the terms being bandied about carelessly.

And yes, my children have been through it. While they are not special-needs cases and yes, those parents will have a tougher time, we just explained what we were doing. Honestly, I don't know if I actually explained or not... they just watched me go through it and they followed. No big deal. I believe it becomes a big deal when you allow it to.

 

[Becky2005]

I can't believe after 40-some pages no one has suggested the obvious answer:

don't fly commercial, fly private planes.

Procedures may have changed, but last time I flew in a private jet, it was awesome to pull up at the terminal (with security free private parking) about 15-20 minutes before the flight departure.

Are you psyhic? My son & I were *just* discussing this (at about the timestamp of your message)...we were talking about flying and HE said "all you have to do is get your own plane & you wouldn't have to worry about anything" -- as if it is a typical thing to have a private jet. Wonder what he knows that I don't since we have never taken a private jet anywhere. When he first said it I thought he was talking about small planes because we do live really close to a small airport that you would learn to fly at, etc... & I was saying "umm..not everywhere has small planes you can fly to places". That's when he informed me he was talking about the bigger private jets.

 

[surfgirl]

Are you psychic?

I've been called many things... psychic ? never.

And I don't even play one on tv!

 

[rie'smom]

I can't believe after 40-some pages no one has suggested the obvious answer:

don't fly commercial, fly private planes.

Procedures may have changed, but last time I flew in a private jet, it was awesome to pull up at the terminal (with security free private parking) about 15-20 minutes before the flight departure.

My first set of in laws had a Lear Jet. I didn't like flying in that thing. Every little bump felt like the worst turbulence. The only good thing about it was the convenience of being able to fly spur of the moment.