Transportation Frustration

[rastika]

Hi Everyone,

I have just returned from my first ever Disney vacation and on the whole it was a blast! We did encounter some serious problems with bus transportation that I thought you should be aware of.

I was traveling with a big group (6) and my youngest sister uses a wheelchair full time. We were staying on property at All Star Music (which was soo much fun!) and we were able to take the bus to all of the parks. We had our problems trying to leave the parks at closing however. The first night my party was stopped and told we couldn't load because the bus was too full but the bus driver allowed all the able bodied people behind us in line to get on. A second bus arrived and the same thing happened. There were no other wheelchairs or ECV's on the bus but we were told we couldn't board. This bus driver radioed for a third bus to come get us after referring to my sister as "the chair". His actual words were "sorry the chair can't come" I was completely shocked. Kristin has never been spoken to that way by anyone before (we're very lucky) and I certainly didn't expect it from a bus driver at Disney World of all places!!

We were finally able to board the third bus and now my sister is almost in tears. She believes she is an inconvenience and hassle for our family and the transportation. That, of course, sets me off. When we finally got back to our hotel I asked to speak with a manager and they connected me to someone in charge of transportation. The man was very apologetic and reiterated that it is not Disney's policy to discriminate and that all of the bus drivers would be reminded of loading policies and procedures. He also had a fast pass sent to the front desk for us to use in the parks the next day. In his words, "to make up for the time we lost" dealing with the buses. It was an unexpected and appreciated perk, but my goal was not to get something for free. I wanted to let someone in charge know how we were being treated and spoke too. Thankfully the manager must have really taken it as the serious matter it was as the rest of the time we had no problems!

Thanks for listening to my rant and I hope this helps someone else!

~Rastika

 

[peemagg]

I'm glad you got a hold of someone right away. From what I have been reading, things like that have been happening more frequently and needs to stop!

If the driver doesn't want to deal with loading and unloading of wheelchairs, then they had better get a different job.

 

[SueM in MN]

Thank you for sharing and sorry to hear you had such a bad experience .
Unfortunately, what your family experienced has been reported recently by a number of other people.

What those drivers did was mean-spirited and also illegal. If the bus is "too full" to load a wheelchair, legally, it is considered too full to load any other passengers.


I'm going to move this to the other part of the disABILITIES Board, because it does relate directly to visiting WDW - Oh, looks like Cheshire Figment moved this while I was posting.

 

[SueM in MN]

I had been meaning to add something to the disABILITIES FAQs thread about what to do to report bus problems. You can find it on post #4 of the disABILITIES FAQs thread.

 

[mmmbop]

I'm so sorry to hear of your incident! It stinks that this is becoming more commonplace. I'm glad to hear you had a great time. I hope your sister visits Disney again, and doesn't let it bother her too much. People can really be so insensitive at times

And Sue, thank you for updating the thread about how to report bus problems!

 

[toocherie]

I had been meaning to add something to the disABILITIES FAQs thread about what to do to report bus problems. You can find it on post #4 of the disABILITIES FAQs thread.

Sue: a question. If the bus is not full, but there are people sitting in the accessible area--who do not need accessible seats--can the bus driver legally ask them to move to non-accessible seats to make room for a wheelchair or ECV user? Just wondering . . .

 

[dolphingirl47]

With a wheelchair I really can't understand it and it is totally unacceptable. With an ECV I can kind of understand were the driver is coming from. While I was at WDW last week, I have observed more than once where the person riding the ECV simply had no control over the ECV, was going way to fast on the bus and started driving into people who were already on the bus. The only safe way to board those ECV users would have been to get everybody that was sitting before the steps off the bus until the ECV was loaded. I am in no way suggesting that all ECV drivers have no control over it, but the driver does not know this and I can see that there is a potential health and safety issue here. The worst thing I witnessed was somebody who was on an ECV who was obviously drunk. He stunk of alcohol and when the bus driver tried to give him instructions, he got abusive. Are there any rules about drinking and ECV use?

dolphingirl47

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue: a question. If the bus is not full, but there are people sitting in the accessible area--who do not need accessible seats--can the bus driver legally ask them to move to non-accessible seats to make room for a wheelchair or ECV user? Just wondering . . .

Yes,
the law requires that the driver ask them to move. They can refuse to move, but if they do not move, the bus (by law) is considered 'full' for that stop and no other guests are to be allowed to board at that stop. If there are more stops, guests can be boarded at the other stops, as long as there are no other guests with wheelchairs or ECVs at that stop.
This is a picture of the sign.

This picture is actually the seats right next to the door - but, the sign is exactly the same above the seats that can be lifted up to make a wheelchair parking/tiedown spot.

With a wheelchair I really can't understand it and it is totally unacceptable. With an ECV I can kind of understand were the driver is coming from. While I was at WDW last week, I have observed more than once where the person riding the ECV simply had no control over the ECV, was going way to fast on the bus and started driving into people who were already on the bus. The only safe way to board those ECV users would have been to get everybody that was sitting before the steps off the bus until the ECV was loaded. I am in no way suggesting that all ECV drivers have no control over it, but the driver does not know this and I can see that there is a potential health and safety issue here. The worst thing I witnessed was somebody who was on an ECV who was obviously drunk. He stunk of alcohol and when the bus driver tried to give him instructions, he got abusive. Are there any rules about drinking and ECV use?

dolphingirl47

Someone seen driving in an unsafe manner in the parks (whether just unsafe or under the influence) can be stopped by Security. The driver with the intoxicated ECV driver should have called for security. That would be the same whether or not the person was using an ECV. Security should be called for an abusive guest.

First of all, to make boarding the bus safer for everyone, the driver is supposed to load the people with wheelchairs and ECVs first. That does make it safer because there is more room. Some of the situations that people have been posting about on this board have been situations where the driver purposely loaded the other passengers first (even though, many times, the guest with an ECV was there first). After choosing to load the other passengers first, the driver said it was too full to safely load the ECV. That is against the law.

The driver is not allowed to decide ahead of time that he/she won't load any guests using ECVs because some ECV drivers are not careful.
If the driver sees a particular guest is having trouble, the driver can't refuse to load that person. The driver could make suggestions (have the people sitting by the back door move temporarily; have another member of the party drive the ECV on; put the ECV into freewheel mode so it can be pushed on).
For the driver to just refuse to load ECVs or falsely say the bus is full is discriminatory and against the law.

 

[dolphingirl47]

Thanks for the reply. I was not trying to suggest that it is OK for a driver to refuse to board an ECV without a very good reason (like when the bus really is up to capacity and as previously said under that circumstance nobody should be boarded.
It is also good to know that an unsafe driver is a matter for security. If I ever witness this again and the driver does not do anything about it, then I will kick up a stink until security is called. It is such a crying shame that a few bad apples spoil it for everybody else. I saw so many ECVs in the lines that were handled with amazing amounts of control in often quite tight surroundings. The only issue I noticed in the parks was one father who had one toddler on each knee and he was approached by a cast member pretty sharply and the kids disembarked.

dolphingirl47

 

[PrincessKsMom]

Yes,
the law requires that the driver ask them to move. They can refuse to move, but if they do not move, the bus (by law) is considered 'full' for that stop and no other guests are to be allowed to board at that stop. If there are more stops, guests can be boarded at the other stops, as long as there are no other guests with wheelchairs or ECVs at that stop.

Seriously? This sound so wrong -- too full for one stop, but not full enough for another, unless, of course, some people get off and make room for new people. Maybe I'm just not understanding it correctly?

 

[brockash]

I'm a little confused. Every time we've been to Disney; they've always loaded the ECV or wheelchair ppl first. They don't allow or even open the front doors until it's loaded. Did 2 bus drivers pull up, see you, and wouldn't board you before the other ppl. - I don't understand how it was "too crowded," I've always seen them board ppl. with ECV's and wheelchair's first?? Sorry, just not understanding. If a bus driver pulled up and saw you and wouldn't board you; I think that's totally rediculous. I have seen a couple times that they said the lift wasn't working on their bus, which still seems odd, but to bluntly tell you that they weren't going to board you, because they didn't feel like it, is totally rediculous.

 

[dolphingirl47]

All resort buses have multiple stops either within the resort or even at multiple resorts. For instance at OKW most wheelchairs/ ECVs got on at Hospitality House as this was the closest to the accessible units. This also happened to be the last of five stops before going to the park. So sometimes, by the time the bus got to Hospitality House, it was full. Busses to Typhoon Lagoon go via Downtown Disney and our bus to Animal Kingdom went via Blizzard Beach. So there is plenty of opportunity for a bus to fill up before it gets to its final destination.

dolphingirl47

 

[SueM in MN]

Seriously? This sound so wrong -- too full for one stop, but not full enough for another, unless, of course, some people get off and make room for new people. Maybe I'm just not understanding it correctly?

I'm not sure I can explain it better, but here's a try.
Let's say a resort has 3 stops.
A lot of people got on at the first stop. The seats are full and some people are standing in the aisle.
At the second stop, there is one person using an ECV and there are also some people who plan to board and stand in the aisle. The person with the ECV can't safely get onto the bus because there is not enough room to manouver safely. It would not be fair to let those other guests on when the person with ECV could not get on. So, the bus is considered full for that stop. In actual fact, I've never seen that done and don't think they would do that. Many of the 'regular' guests hate people with wheelchairs and ECVs (and no, that's not too strong a word - my sister thought it was until she got on the bus with me and heard the comment from other guests about my DH and DD. They had gotten on the bus while the rest of our party waited in line with the other guests, so people did not know we were with them).

At the 3rd stop, no one with an ECV or wheelchair is waiting. There is room for people to get on the bus and stand.

All resort buses have multiple stops either within the resort or even at multiple resorts. For instance at OKW most wheelchairs/ ECVs got on at Hospitality House as this was the closest to the accessible units. This also happened to be the last of five stops before going to the park. So sometimes, by the time the bus got to Hospitality House, it was full. Busses to Typhoon Lagoon go via Downtown Disney and our bus to Animal Kingdom went via Blizzard Beach. So there is plenty of opportunity for a bus to fill up before it gets to its final destination.

dolphingirl47

Just one correction - accessible units are scattered throughout the resort. Many people with ECVs or wheelchairs request to be close the Hospitality House, but they could end up all over.

 

[mgilmer]

Thank you for sharing and sorry to hear you had such a bad experience .
Unfortunately, what your family experienced has been reported recently by a number of other people.

What those drivers did was mean-spirited and also illegal. If the bus is "too full" to load a wheelchair, legally, it is considered too full to load any other passengers.


I'm going to move this to the other part of the disABILITIES Board, because it does relate directly to visiting WDW - Oh, looks like Cheshire Figment moved this while I was posting.

Sue:

I have been told by a very good disability attorney that this is simply not true as a matter of law. Can you cite chapter and verse where this is in the statutes or regulations?

 

[mechurchlady]

Seriously? This sound so wrong -- too full for one stop, but not full enough for another, unless, of course, some people get off and make room for new people. Maybe I'm just not understanding it correctly?

Each stop is considered seperately, in other words, they do not carry over previous actions to the new stop. What if the denied person got off at the next stop? Then the nondisabled could be packed into the bus. At what point would the denial be carried? If a person is denied and the bus is deemed full they might have gotten off on the first or even third stop which would leave the bus deemd full for maybe 25 stops if it was an urban bus instead of Disney.

NEVER try to understand the minds of beaureaucrats who write laws. It is like trying to unravel a pile of yarn, impossible. <--- my local government officials.

 

[brockash]

All resort buses have multiple stops either within the resort or even at multiple resorts. For instance at OKW most wheelchairs/ ECVs got on at Hospitality House as this was the closest to the accessible units. This also happened to be the last of five stops before going to the park. So sometimes, by the time the bus got to Hospitality House, it was full. Busses to Typhoon Lagoon go via Downtown Disney and our bus to Animal Kingdom went via Blizzard Beach. So there is plenty of opportunity for a bus to fill up before it gets to its final destination.

dolphingirl47

Oh, that makes sense-not that it's okay by any means, but I was only thinking about boarding a bus from a park to a resort.

 

[SueM in MN]

Yes,
the law requires that the driver ask them to move. They can refuse to move, but if they do not move, the bus (by law) is considered 'full' for that stop and no other guests are to be allowed to board at that stop. If there are more stops, guests can be boarded at the other stops, as long as there are no other guests with wheelchairs or ECVs at that stop.

A poster on another thread has indicated that this is not the law; I had been sent PMs by WDW bus drivers several times over the years indicating this was law - not part of the ADA, but Department of Transportation. One of the drivers had sent me a link, but this was a long time ago and I can't find either the link that he sent me or anything that leads me back to that link.
So, at this point, I can't say that the "bus is considered full" part is in any specific law. I did see it in writing, but can't point to it, so I won't quote that part anymore.
I can say that some of the 'good drivers' have mentioned that they were told that information in their training, so not sure why it would be part of the training if it was not true.

There is an ADA Civil Rights document, which does state (about vehicles, including buses):

"(j)(1) When an individual with a disability enters a vehicle, and
because of a disability, the individual needs to sit in a seat or occupy
a wheelchair securement location, the entity shall ask the following
persons to move in order to allow the individual with a disability to
occupy the seat or securement location:
(i) Individuals, except other individuals with a disability or
elderly persons, sitting in a location designated as priority seating
for elderly and handicapped persons (or other seat as necessary);
(ii) Individuals sitting in or a fold-down or other movable seat in
a wheelchair securement location.
(2) This requirement applies to light rail, rapid rail, and commuter
rail systems only to the extent practicable.
(3) The entity is not required to enforce the request that other
passengers move from priority seating areas or wheelchair securement
locations.
(4) In all signage designating priority seating areas for elderly
persons and persons with disabilities, or designating wheelchair
securement areas, the entity shall include language informing persons
sitting in these locations that they should comply with requests by
transit provider personnel to vacate their seats to make room for an
individual with a disability. This requirement applies to all fixed
route vehicles when they are acquired by the entity or to new or
replacement signage in the entity's existing fixed route vehicles."

That document doesn't have any 'penalties' listed for the other guest not moving.
But, whether or not it is a law, it still is a fact that each bus only hold 2 wheelchairs or ECVs in the tiedown spots, so there are only 2 chances for a guest using one of those to get on the bus (assuming that the lift/ramp and tiedown is in working condition).
So, if you assume each bus has space for 60 people, that means if 58 people are waiting and walk up to the bus, they each have a 100% chance of getting on the bus because they could take any of those 60 spots.
If there are also 2 people with ECVs or wheelchairs, there are only 2 spots they can use. If I did the math right this late at night, each of them have only a 3.3% chance of getting on.

 

[sunnydoozer]

It isn't something that is word for word out of the ADA it is how court precedent has interpreted what equal non-discriminatory access is.

So the court has said that to load able-bodied guests only would be to treat a wheel-chair user differently and therefore not equally.

Its not meant as a penalty to anyone, only as a means to treat everybody at one bus stop equally.

 

[SueM in MN]

It isn't something that is word for word out of the ADA it is how court precedent has interpreted what equal non-discriminatory access is.

So the court has said that to load able-bodied guests only would be to treat a wheel-chair user differently and therefore not equally.

Its not meant as a penalty to anyone, only as a means to treat everybody at one bus stop equally.

Thank you.

 

[MonorailGuy]

...At the second stop, there is one person using an ECV and there are also some people who plan to board and stand in the aisle. The person with the ECV can't safely get onto the bus because there is not enough room to manouver safely. It would not be fair to let those other guests on when the person with ECV could not get on...

Many of the 'regular' guests hate people with wheelchairs and ECVs (and no, that's not too strong a word

One easy fix would be, after the RTS buses (the high-floor buses) are fully gone from the fleet, to move the ADA area to the front of the bus, where it is normally located on other transit systems. Then, the driver would be better prepared to control the situation of other guests reacting to the guest in a mobility device. I always hated how people would start streaming in the back door past the guest in the wheel chair, and I would have to turn mean and chase them off... and trust me, you have to be mean to get them to budge. They don't want to wait for that guest in a wheelchair, and will do anything to get past if they can.

Now working in Monorails, I have people try to get past guests in a wheelchair and into those middle cars. When they do, because there's no possible way they missed that there was a guest in a wheelchair ahead of them, and the Monorails have signs above the doors much like on the buses. I have no problem telling them they will either need to make room or move to another car, as there is plenty of space elsewhere for them. Many grumble, some try to fight me on the issue. It's sad how I've had to learn to act mean to get people to do the right thing. The worst part is that in being mean, I have to appear to have fun doing it or it's not effective.