Transgenders and bathrooms....

It's one thing to be an activist. It's quite another to just simply avoid a state because you believe yourself to be superior to its residents.

Where was that said? All I got was about a very vocal public pressure regarding specific laws. That's worked well regarding many laws. It's mostly businesses (and many in NC have pleaded for this law to be repealed) that can make a case that it's hurting the state.
 
THIS is the reason that I now carry pepper spray and I am not afraid to spray a guy using the women's bathroom while screaming for help

This is so funny, I can just picture this ending up on America's Funniest Home Videos because it's so absurd.

A few things that confuse me about these laws...

5) And the most confusing thing of all to me....I've heard a number of male politicians and clergy say that when they were young, they would have jumped at the opportunity to pretend they were trans women so they could sneak into a ladies room, therefore lots of men will do this. To see what? What's the draw? Are there men who are turned on by watching women walk into stalls and close the door? Or watching women wash their hands? Or watching women touch up their makeup? What else would they see?

I'm astonished that any man would say this, because it makes them look like such imbeciles. First off, what kind of creepy weirdos were these people when they were young, and second, I fail to see the thrill in wanting to see a woman with her pants pulled down, hovering over a pee soaked toilet seat, desperately trying not to dribble on herself! And if the whole wanting to see a woman pee thing is their jam anyway, then there is a whole bunch of fetish porn sites on the internet they could flock to, lol.
 

I've owned bars. Nope, I won't use the men's bathroom GROSS! They even have their own potty at home. ;)
Not my first choice either, but I have old-lady-bladder and sometimes the line for the women's restroom is so long it's either that or wet my pants. Of course lately I seem to be finding all the women are draping toilet paper over the seat and then leaving it hanging there when they're finished, so that isn't too inviting, either. I don't want to touch the paper someone else has dripped on.
 
A percentage of NC residents elected those representatives into office. And at the time, I imagine most didn't know they would come up with such a stupid law. I certainly hope nobody holds it against me for the stupid things my state does. I didn't vote for most of them, but I have no doubt that even if the other guys won, they'd still do things I didn't support.
The majority percentage. But, that said, I don't think that the country blames the residents. We all know how idiotic our politicians have become.

But I was responding to the post the post that said the backlash by businesses and individuals was unfair to the residents. It is not. If the politicians are going to say that this is what NC wants, they need to know that there will be consequences for their stupid assumptions and loss of $$$ is usually the only thing that can penetrate their tiny brains.

It is actually in support of the residents that have to live under the decisions of these pea brains.
 
OK. Well if people are so worried about cis people harming children in like gender restrooms, and there are more cis people than trans, why is the only

and perverts may masquerade as deeply religious people in order to gain access to kids in church youth groups, or as coaches who only care about helping kids enjoy and excell at a sport in order to gain trust and access to children, or as close family friends in order to gain access to and trust of a child and their family, etc ,etc (and those examples actually happen, repeatedly, and there is a real history there, but that doesn't mean we make laws that specifically put priests, coaches, scoutmasters, and family friends into at best awkward and at worst historically dangerous positions just in case someone is using their position for pervy reasons.
I can't like this enough times!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Or just do away with the labels at all just mark them "restroom" and let everyone use them all. Espeically if you go with some of the nicer ones I have seen that have taller stall doors that go down closwer to the ground and not have gaps large neough for me to put fingers through.

What utopia has such amazing stall doors?!

Honestly, I bet that would take care of the majority of the issues people have. It guarantees total privacy while doing your business.
 
Since when has the women's public restroom become a safe haven for women and children? That door with the stick figure lady is not a magical portal to a safe zone where no rapist or molester can get to you. If you are physically vulnerable (and really even if you don't think you are as well), you should always be aware of your surroundings and that of your kids. That said, anyone worrying about pretend trans people attacking them or standing in the bathroom perving on them washing their hands is a ridiculous person that should probably just stay home. I've used the bathroom with women (gay, bi, and straight), men (gay, bi, and straight), trans people, drag queens, children, people who don't fit any of the above AND I bet I've been in a bathroom with a "pervert" at least once in my life. Guess what? Still haven't been attacked, harassed or stared at. The worst thing I've ever had to deal with was 3 drag queens hogging the mirror so I had to wait a ridiculously long time to wash my hands.
 
We've been dealing with it for a long time. It's just that no one either (a) knew, or (b) cared. Carry on the same way we always have. It will be fine.

Yes, I think a lot of the problem is that too many people don't know or understand what a transgender person is.

About a week ago I was over at a friend's house. My friend's dad often goes off on these ranting tiraids. (Yes, even when they have company in the house!) He stated on one of his rants while I was there. In his rant he covered several different topics, but he did briefly cover this issue by saying, "And now we have these transgenders!" The way he put the emphasis on the "now" made it sound like transgenders was something brand new. :sad2:

sailorstitch
 
What utopia has such amazing stall doors?!

Honestly, I bet that would take care of the majority of the issues people have. It guarantees total privacy while doing your business.

I've seen such stalls over 25 years ago. This is one example:

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It seems more solid than what I remember. I remember sheet metal doors, but ones that extended all the way down to the floor (about as much peek room as a typical door) and 8 feet tall, with 10 feet high ceilings. There were no cracks with special joints instead of typical connectors.

Here's another example in stainless steel. It looks like the joints were designed to minimize the crack width, and one crack is covered up by a strip of metal.

XXytDA0.jpg


I guess someone could really get down on the knees to do typical peeping Tom stuff, but that would tend to be really obvious.
 
A lot of the newer trendier restaurants near us have full length stall doors like the ones posted above. Most places have usual ones
 
Just curious and I ask you because of your experience, do that find that Muslims and other folks of non European culture are ok with the unisex bathrooms? I would think it would be harder for them to adjust as so many aspects of their lives are gender separated, but of course, I could be wrong.

I'm not the person you asked, but I have spent considerable time in the Middle East and a little bit of time in eastern Asia. I don't remember anything of note in Asia, but I think you probably care most about the Middle Eastern reaction, right?

I lived in one Middle Eastern country for nearly two years, and during that time visited 3 other ME countries. While the norm is to have bathrooms separated by gender, occasionally there are unisex bathrooms with more than one stall, leading to men and women being in the restroom together. I wouldn't call it common, but I saw it enough to stop being surprised. Maybe 5% of the time? Additionally, I have on numerous occasions seen ME men enter a women's restroom if the men's was full. I've never seen a ME woman enter a men's restroom, but then I really had no reason to ever look at the men's restroom. So to answer your question, I'd say they are okay with it in at least a few ME countries. Whether Muslims specifically are okay with it I really can't answer, but considering they make up by far the majority population in these countries, I'd say the answer is yes.

Fun fact: in the ME, it's quite common for the stalls to be in separate rooms while the sinks are in a common area outside. Personally I hate this because it means everybody is grabbing the door handle with unwashed hands :crazy2:

Yes, pervs will be pervs. I'm wondering if the law would give a male perv masquerading as a transgender to get into the women's room some legal protection. He could say "Hey, I identify as female so I can go in the women's bathroom." Maybe all he's doing in there is standing around and leering at women as they go in and out of the stalls. Maybe he's looking at the women's feet under the stall walls and making yummy noises. Would either of these behaviors be illegal? This law gives him another avenue for his pervy behavior in a place where women feel particularly vulnerable. I suppose it is the same for men in the men's room but men are not likely to feel physically threatened by women. They could, but not likely.

Yes, leering is illegal. I don't know what you mean by yummy noises, but anything that is obviously sexual gratification from looking at a non-consenting individual's genitals is also illegal. It's not the legality that's an issue, it's the ability to prove someone was doing something wrong. Think of how often you think someone is looking at you, and it turns out they are looking at someone behind you or just staring into space. Same issue. It would be hard to prosecute. But if your concern is that allowing transgendered persons into the bathroom of their identified gender because cisgendered persons might take advantage, I cannot stress enough that there was never anything stopping either of those groups from entering any bathroom before now.

Also, as a lifelong woman and female (those are different things...) I don't feel particularly vulnerable when I'm in the bathroom. Why on earth would I??

I think the concern for some, and I am not saying it is correct or even likely, is that any law that allows a man to use a women's restroom or locker room based on his gender identity may embolden perverts, because the perverts may think there is less chance of being charged with anything if caught. The perverts may think that if they are caught under the newer gender identity laws, they can start lying about being Questioning or whatever else it takes and thus more likely avoid charges. I'm not saying this is true. I am just considering how perverts may think. The perverts may think those lies would not work under the traditional laws, and it would be more likely to be charged for being in the "wrong" restroom or locker room. (This is a very lame analogy, but if it was made legal for a man to take a candy bar from the cash register line if he identifies as a woman, then IMO there would be men who identify as men taking candy bars who, if confronted, would lie and say they identify as a woman. It's just sorry human nature.)

And to be clear, By perverts I mean ANYONE who is specifically entering the restroom or locker room to invade privacy or worse. And yes, I am using a man entering a women's restroom or locker room as an example. I know perverts come in all genders. I have a nine-year old daughter, so my personal worst case scenario involves her safety in a restroom or locker room. And yes, I do know perverts can do this under the traditional laws. My whole point is to consider how perverts may potentially think under both types of laws.

As a former military member, I was taught to think like the enemy. Similarly for personal self-defense, you should think like a criminal, or in this case a pervert. I think it is reasonable to consider this scenario, and those who are honestly concerned should not just be dismissed as bigots or worse. Also as a former military member, I believe it is crucial to preserve the freedoms of all our citizens. Trans people need to be extended all the same freedoms as their fellow citizens. This may mean that others accept a little more risk, or hopefully that other measures will be taken to ensure security for all (e.g. family restrooms, etc).

1. Perverts wouldn't be able to avoid exposure or peeping tom charges just because they claim they are transgendered. The crime has nothing to do with the gender identity.
2. As a current military member, I can assume that if you were taught to think like the enemy you were also taught to consider most likely/most dangerous courses of action. Most likely, a pervert isn't going to draw attention to themselves by walking into the restroom of the opposite sex because they take great effort to hide their perversions. Most dangerous is actually committing a sex crime, which as I discussed in 1. would still be prosecuted regardless of gender identity. Legislating that people use the bathroom of their birth gender does nothing to prevent perversion, and doesn't help prosecute perverts.

Putting aside the NC law, are there actually laws that prohibit people from going into the opposite gender bathrooms? I always assumed this was just a social norm/courtesy kind of thing. I know I've accidentally gone into the men's room on occasion and it never occurred to me that I was breaking the law.
If a man (born a man, identifies as a man, dresses as a man) walks into a woman's room, is he breaking the law or just breaking social conventions?

I've had a few friends ask this same question, and none of them has been able to find any evidence of laws prohibiting either sex from entering the bathroom of the opposite sex. As several posters have mentioned, it's not rare at all. And many people (women) do it intentionally! :rotfl:

I agree.

I have absolutely NO issue whatsoever sharing a bathroom with a transgendered individual. None whatsoever. I DO have a problem sharing a bathroom with a MAN who is pretending & taking full advantage of this new law in order to get a peek at girls. And I'm not necessarily talking about a pervert that is looking to harm a woman or child, but just a full-blooded, testosterone-charged male looking for a cheap thrill. Not sure about you all, but in my teens and early 20's, I knew PLENTY of guys that would JUMP at the chance to enter a women's locker room, fitting room, or restroom... and now they can legally. I'm not comfortable with that at all. Women will have absolutely no privacy. Sorry, but I don't want to pee in front of a normal male that is standing outside my stall just so he can get his jollies.

Honestly, we go in this direction, we might as well make every bathroom, fitting room, and locker room unisex in every public place and school. Just get rid of all gender separations. What's the point of having male/female if we can go in either that we choose?

Sad that in order to give someone else their "right to choose", it takes away my "right to privacy, decency, & dignity."

Nobody is suggesting taking away your privacy, decency, and dignity. If people were suggesting using the open toilets that apparently exist in Japan, that would probably take away privacy, decency, and dignity for some (most) people, but nobody is suggesting that. But if a male is in the same restroom as you, and assuming you are in the stall when you expose yourself, then you still have the same privacy, decency, and dignity you have when a woman is in there with you. I'm going to assume you aren't walking around the public portion of the restroom exposing body parts to others. The stall is there to protect your privacy, decency, and dignity...not the bathroom door.

What utopia has such amazing stall doors?!

Honestly, I bet that would take care of the majority of the issues people have. It guarantees total privacy while doing your business.

I've seen a few, especially in high end hotels. The stall doors in the Middle East generally aren't that tall/long, but they are formed such that there are no vertical cracks that someone could look through.

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Additional thoughts:
1. Super excited how many people are against this law. Right on!
2. I don't know about you guys, but I often see bathroom doors propped open especially in stores and airports. If people aren't complaining about the door being open, what the heck is the problem with people using the same bathroom? Is there some force field I'm unaware of? :confused3
 
What utopia has such amazing stall doors?!

Lol this is the norm over in NZ (and Australia as well). I always feel really comforatble in the US public bathrooms because the doors are so high (and low at the top) and such big gaps in the sides. (and on a side note their water level in the bowl is way too high as well)
 
Yes, I think a lot of the problem is that too many people don't know or understand what a transgender person is.

About a week ago I was over at a friend's house. My friend's dad often goes off on these ranting tiraids. (Yes, even when they have company in the house!) He stated on one of his rants while I was there. In his rant he covered several different topics, but he did briefly cover this issue by saying, "And now we have these transgenders!" The way he put the emphasis on the "now" made it sound like transgenders was something brand new. :sad2:

sailorstitch

My friend has a transgender son. Anyone who is close to the family knows he was born a female but nobody else would know that. He looks like a typical teen boy, and there would probably be many people surprised to learn he was born a girl. Your friend's dad and people like him have probably come across a few transgender people in their lifetime, and not even been aware. What now suddenly makes them a problem? That now you know they can use the bathroom they identify with? Because, they've been doing that during your entire lifetime too.
I think the real problem is that your friend's dad (and those others) now know just how much of a bigot they truly are.
 
Where was that said? All I got was about a very vocal public pressure regarding specific laws. That's worked well regarding many laws. It's mostly businesses (and many in NC have pleaded for this law to be repealed) that can make a case that it's hurting the state.

I think it was a pretty clear implication.
 















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