Tonight's 20/20

[keri125]

Sorry, I was imprecise in the point I was trying to make. I think we can agree that in all your examples whatever behaviour the mothers exhibit, it is true to their parental nature and any departure from that is abhorrent? Humanity is the only species that seems to identify it as some sort of progress...

I see the point now that you were trying to make, but I take exception to your comment that "humanity is the only species that seems to identify it as some sort of progress..." I don't think humanity is trying to define parental abandonment as "progress," whether it is the mother or the father abandoning the children. I think what is occurring is that more and more people are becoming more accepting of the idea that the typical "nuclear" family is not the ONLY type of family that can raise happy, healthy children into happy, healthy adults. And yes, I do see that as progress, as I know many families (mine included) that are not a typical nuclear family but whose children are happy and highly functioning. (Of course, this is all off topic from the original post - sorry, OP!)

 

[ronandannette]

I see the point now that you were trying to make, but I take exception to your comment that "humanity is the only species that seems to identify it as some sort of progress..." I don't think humanity is trying to define parental abandonment as "progress," whether it is the mother or the father abandoning the children. I think what is occurring is that more and more people are becoming more accepting of the idea that the typical "nuclear" family is not the ONLY type of family that can raise happy, healthy children into happy, healthy adults. And yes, I do see that as progress, as I know many families (mine included) that are not a typical nuclear family but whose children are happy and highly functioning. (Of course, this is all off topic from the original post - sorry, OP!)

Again, not exactly the point I was going for. I'm not trying to debate the many and various forms a successful family may take either by necessity or choice; I'd never argue with any of that. I was referring to the concept of a "mother" deciding to put her own desires at the forefront at the expense of any and all considerations of her children. Is this a legitimate, value-neutral choice now? (Also, I didn't think we were OT too much as it relates to the stories on 20/20 last night.)

 

[Robbi]

While I could not have abandoned my children, I think the kids of the moms discussed here are better off. Kids know when they're wanted or not. They knew these women did not want to be there with them. It's a hurtful thing to feel like you're a burden instead of a treasure.

 

[Conservative Hippie]

Again, not exactly the point I was going for. I'm not trying to debate the many and various forms a successful family may take either by necessity or choice; I'd never argue with any of that. I was referring to the concept of a "mother" deciding to put her own desires at the forefront at the expense of any and all considerations of her children. Is this a legitimate, value-neutral choice now? (Also, I didn't think we were OT too much as it relates to the stories on 20/20 last night.)

If it is then I am pretty disgusted with a society that thinks a mother abandoning her children for the life she "really" wanted is a "legitimate choice."

 

[runsandjumps]

Most animals never even see their parents! Many never meet their fathers and some never meet their mothers, either. Some insects, fish, amphibians and reptiles hatch from fertilized eggs and face life completely alone. (from FactMonster.com)

Catfish: A father sea catfish keeps the eggs of his young in his mouth until they are ready to hatch. He will not eat until his young are born, which may take several weeks.
Cockroach: A father cockroach eats bird droppings to obtain precious nitrogen, which he carries back to feed his young.
Duck: Most male ducks live as bachelors, but the ruddy duck of North America helps care for his young.
Since earthworms have both male and female sex organs, every earthworm can be both a mother and a father! Animals that have both male and female organs are called hermaphrodites.
Frog: The male Darwin frog hatches his eggs in a pouch in his mouth. He can eat and continue about his business until his tadpoles lose their tails, become tiny frogs, and jump out of his mouth!
Monkey: Marmosets are tiny South American monkeys. The fathers take care of their babies from birth. When the marmoset is born, the father cleans it, then carries it to the mother only when it needs to be nursed. When the baby can eat solid food, the father will feed it.
Penguin: A father Emperor penguin withstands the Antarctic cold for 60 days or more to protect his eggs, which he keeps on his feet, covered with a feathered flap. During this entire time he doesn't eat a thing. Most father penguins lose about 25 pounds while they wait for their babies to hatch. Afterward, they feed the chicks a special liquid from their throats. When the mother penguins return to care for the young, the fathers go to sea to eat and rest.
Rhea: Rheas are large South American birds similar to ostriches. Father rhea takes sole care of his young. From eggs to chicks, he feeds, defends, and protects them until they are old enough to survive on their own.
Sand grouse: A father Namaqua sand grouse of Africa's Kalahari Desert flies as far as 50 miles a day in order to soak himself in water and return to his nest, where his chicks can drink from his feathers!
Sea horse: The male sea horse has a pouch in which the mother lays her eggs. The father then looks after the eggs for about two months, until they hatch and leave the pouch. He continues to protect the young until they are able to live on their own.
Siamese fighting fish: When the mother lays her eggs, the father catches them in his mouth, then drops them into a nest he has prepared. He guards the nest and protects the baby fish when they hatch.
Wolf: When the mother wolf gives birth to pups, the father stands guard outside their den and brings food to the mother and pups. As they grow, he not only plays with them but also teaches them how to survive. Wolves continue to live together much as human families do.

Sorry, really don't want to enter the debate about these "mothers," but it drives me nuts when people try to use nature as a fallback for what should be "natural" for humans. The reality is that most "animals" do not receive any type of parental care at all. Nature is so vast in behaviors that it really is not possible to say that any animal behavior is the "norm."

Yes but highly intelligent animals like Orcas live in a family their entire lives. So if we are going to argue the maternal aspect you have to compare like animals. not reptiles that have not evolved as we have.

Ana

 

[Robbi]

If it is then I am pretty disgusted with a society that thinks a mother abandoning her children for the life she "really" wanted is a "legitimate choice."

Is it better for a miserable mother to stay out of the need to do the right thing and make her children unhappy? My mother should have been born 20 years later. She more than likely would have been a working woman with no kids. All of our lives, my brothers and I felt like we were in her way. I think we would have been better off if she had left.

 

[DVCJones]

Most animals never even see their parents! Many never meet their fathers and some never meet their mothers, either. Some insects, fish, amphibians and reptiles hatch from fertilized eggs and face life completely alone. (from FactMonster.com)

Catfish: A father sea catfish keeps the eggs of his young in his mouth until they are ready to hatch. He will not eat until his young are born, which may take several weeks.
Cockroach: A father cockroach eats bird droppings to obtain precious nitrogen, which he carries back to feed his young.
Duck: Most male ducks live as bachelors, but the ruddy duck of North America helps care for his young.
Since earthworms have both male and female sex organs, every earthworm can be both a mother and a father! Animals that have both male and female organs are called hermaphrodites.
Frog: The male Darwin frog hatches his eggs in a pouch in his mouth. He can eat and continue about his business until his tadpoles lose their tails, become tiny frogs, and jump out of his mouth!
Monkey: Marmosets are tiny South American monkeys. The fathers take care of their babies from birth. When the marmoset is born, the father cleans it, then carries it to the mother only when it needs to be nursed. When the baby can eat solid food, the father will feed it.
Penguin: A father Emperor penguin withstands the Antarctic cold for 60 days or more to protect his eggs, which he keeps on his feet, covered with a feathered flap. During this entire time he doesn't eat a thing. Most father penguins lose about 25 pounds while they wait for their babies to hatch. Afterward, they feed the chicks a special liquid from their throats. When the mother penguins return to care for the young, the fathers go to sea to eat and rest.
Rhea: Rheas are large South American birds similar to ostriches. Father rhea takes sole care of his young. From eggs to chicks, he feeds, defends, and protects them until they are old enough to survive on their own.
Sand grouse: A father Namaqua sand grouse of Africa's Kalahari Desert flies as far as 50 miles a day in order to soak himself in water and return to his nest, where his chicks can drink from his feathers!
Sea horse: The male sea horse has a pouch in which the mother lays her eggs. The father then looks after the eggs for about two months, until they hatch and leave the pouch. He continues to protect the young until they are able to live on their own.
Siamese fighting fish: When the mother lays her eggs, the father catches them in his mouth, then drops them into a nest he has prepared. He guards the nest and protects the baby fish when they hatch.
Wolf: When the mother wolf gives birth to pups, the father stands guard outside their den and brings food to the mother and pups. As they grow, he not only plays with them but also teaches them how to survive. Wolves continue to live together much as human families do.

Sorry, really don't want to enter the debate about these "mothers," but it drives me nuts when people try to use nature as a fallback for what should be "natural" for humans. The reality is that most "animals" do not receive any type of parental care at all. Nature is so vast in behaviors that it really is not possible to say that any animal behavior is the "norm."

I have no problem comparing that mom with an animal or even that cockroach mentioned in the list above...

 

[Conservative Hippie]

Is it better for a miserable mother to stay out of the need to do the right thing and make her children unhappy? My mother should have been born 20 years later. She more than likely would have been a working woman with no kids. All of our lives, my brothers and I felt like we were in her way. I think we would have been better off if she had left.

So the only choices are to abandon your kids or be miserable? How about get divorced if you think you really have to, but stay in your kids' lives? How about getting counseling and learning to live with the decision you made to have a family in the first place?

 

[horseshowmom]

Remember the Susan Smith case? She killed her kids because her new boyfriend didn't want to be involved with a woman who had kids. So, she drove them into the lake and let them die. People asked, why didn't she just leave? Some mothers are not good mothers, and they walk away. You hear it more often with men. You won't see a 20/20 show about it because it's just not news when a man walks out of his life. With a woman it's considered unnatural, so therefore there's a show showing how crappy they are as mothers. After watching the whole Susan Smith saga play out years ago, I've decided to accept that sometimes a person walking away from a family is the best case scenario.

I actually agree with what you say. As bad as it is, some people are monsters, and in some extreme cases it's better for their children not to be exposed to them.

The problem here is that this woman wants to talk about how much she loves her children when she very plainly is only interested in herself (and her wonderful boyfriend, of course). She exploits her children in her blog and tries to make it sound like what she's doing is the most natural and wonderful choice anyone can make. She doesn't seem to have any shame about it at all while her children are the ones who suffer.

After reading this nut jobs blog, I agree that these kids are better off without her in their lives. I think the thing that floors me is that fact that she is stupid enough to go on TV and try to convince everyone that she is a good mother! This woman has some mighty big........well, I'll just leave it at that.

This. ^

There have been mentions of fathers who do this every day.

Funny, I have never seen a father who leaves his children being called "brave" and "corageous"

And this. ^

Of course, it's not okay when a father does it, and I would have the exact same remarks for him if his behavior was the same.

 

[Robbi]

If it is then I am pretty disgusted with a society that thinks a mother abandoning her children for the life she "really" wanted is a "legitimate choice."

So the only choices are to abandon your kids or be miserable? How about get divorced if you think you really have to, but stay in your kids' lives? How about getting counseling and learning to live with the decision you made to have a family in the first place?

The mothers are staying in their children's lives. Maybe they went through counseling or maybe they chose not to do that. I don't know. I stand by my post though that having a mother who doesn't want to be a mother is not a good thing. Children know when they're not wanted.

 

[S. C.]

There have been mentions of fathers who do this every day.

Funny, I have never seen a father who leaves his children being called "brave" and "corageous"

Or any mention of Dad did the right thing, he knew he should not be in his children's lives, etc, etc.

We hear that deadbeat and a few other choice words that I cannot say here.

 

[Christine]

The problem here is that this woman wants to talk about how much she loves her children when she very plainly is only interested in herself (and her wonderful boyfriend, of course). She exploits her children in her blog and tries to make it sound like what she's doing is the most natural and wonderful choice anyone can make. She doesn't seem to have any shame about it at all while her children are the ones who suffer.

Sounds like classic Narcissitic Personality Disorder to me. Would you agree that this particular women probably has severe personality disorder and that's part of this? I would venture to say that even the three pregnancies she had were deliberate attempts to gain attention for herself. This type of personality disorder/mental illness is one of the worst and is just about untreatable. I knew someone that one and it was just bizarre. That's all I can think about when I read about this woman.

 

[horseshowmom]

Sounds like classic Narcissitic Personality Disorder to me. Would you agree that this particular women probably has severe personality disorder and that's part of this? I would venture to say that even the three pregnancies she had were deliberate attempts to gain attention for herself. This type of personality disorder/mental illness is one of the worst and is just about untreatable. I knew someone that one and it was just bizarre. That's all I can think about when I read about this woman.

Certainly possible. True narcissists can turn just about anything into anything they want it to be. I know one, and they will get angry when you don't believe things are exactly as they say even when it is pointedly obvious that they aren't. You just have to shake your head.

 

[MrsPete]

This sounds like the natural outcome /natural consequence of the "all things are acceptable" mentality that we as a society have adopted over the last few decades:

All choices are equal.
No one else has a right to question my moral decisions.
We all deserve this or that commercial product.
We have a right to happiness, no matter what that may mean to others.
Right and wrong are subjective.

This woman's choice to abandon her family is an extreme result of the "everyone gets a trophy" concept -- the adult version is "everyone can do anything they please".

Plenty of adults have already abandoned their children (or spouses, or other family members) -- even if they still live in the same household. Plenty of adults have put their own happiness first and ignored their children's needs. This woman's case is much, much more extreme than average, but she's not alone.

Somehow we've got to get back to some old-fashioned values, and we've got to realize that our actions do matter -- to our own futures, and to our children's futures. We've got to realize that sometimes putting aside your own happiness is the mature, adult thing to do.

 

[Robbi]

Or any mention of Dad did the right thing, he knew he should not be in his children's lives, etc, etc.

We hear that deadbeat and a few other choice words that I cannot say here.

OK, you'll read it now. If a man does not want to be a father, then he should not be in his children's lives.

This is not to say that either parent who leaves should not be held accountable for money to raise their children.

 

[horseshowmom]

This sounds like the natural outcome /natural consequence of the "all things are acceptable" mentality that we as a society have adopted over the last few decades:

All choices are equal.
No one else has a right to question my moral decisions.
We all deserve this or that commercial product.
We have a right to happiness, no matter what that may mean to others.
Right and wrong are subjective.

This woman's choice to abandon her family is an extreme result of the "everyone gets a trophy" concept -- the adult version is "everyone can do anything they please".

Plenty of adults have already abandoned their children (or spouses, or other family members) -- even if they still live in the same household. Plenty of adults have put their own happiness first and ignored their children's needs. This woman's case is much, much more extreme than average, but she's not alone.

Somehow we've got to get back to some old-fashioned values, and we've got to realize that our actions do matter -- to our own futures, and to our children's futures. We've got to realize that sometimes putting aside your own happiness is the mature, adult thing to do.

 

[Lolsmum]

This sounds like the natural outcome /natural consequence of the "all things are acceptable" mentality that we as a society have adopted over the last few decades:

All choices are equal.
No one else has a right to question my moral decisions.
We all deserve this or that commercial product.
We have a right to happiness, no matter what that may mean to others.
Right and wrong are subjective.

This woman's choice to abandon her family is an extreme result of the "everyone gets a trophy" concept -- the adult version is "everyone can do anything they please".

Plenty of adults have already abandoned their children (or spouses, or other family members) -- even if they still live in the same household. Plenty of adults have put their own happiness first and ignored their children's needs. This woman's case is much, much more extreme than average, but she's not alone.

Somehow we've got to get back to some old-fashioned values, and we've got to realize that our actions do matter -- to our own futures, and to our children's futures. We've got to realize that sometimes putting aside your own happiness is the mature, adult thing to do.

Actually, I don't think this is a part of that trend at all. There have always been a small number of women who abandon their children, either altogether or by making sure they have someone to look after them. These children are looked after, at least. Some women make truly terrible mothers, as some men make terrible fathers. Do I applaud them for leaving their children? No. They should never have had them at all. Do I think it's the better option if they do leave them, assuming someone else (the other parent, grandparents, the state even) can step in to take care of the kids? Heck yes.

 

[Acklander]

Actually, I don't think this is a part of that trend at all. There have always been a small number of women who abandon their children, either altogether or by making sure they have someone to look after them. These children are looked after, at least. Some women make truly terrible mothers, as some men make terrible fathers. Do I applaud them for leaving their children? No. They should never have had them at all. Do I think it's the better option if they do leave them, assuming someone else (the other parent, grandparents, the state even) can step in to take care of the kids? Heck yes.

Exactly. This isn't the all things are acceptable mentality or everybody gets a trophy. This is a something is missing - think of it as a personality defect, if you will. Not everyone is meant to be a parent, unfortunately some find that out after the fact. Some suck it up and live a miserable existence until their child is gone, some walk away, and some take their anger and resentment of the situation out on the child. Many times its a combination of all of the above. In a perfect world, people will know this about them self before they have children. We don't live in a perfect world. This isn't a matter of a parent feeling trapped but being a grown up and dealing with it. This is an extreme situation where there is going to be a bad outcome, no matter which choice is made. Sometimes the walking away is the least damaging end to a bad situation.

 

[DVCJones]

Exactly. This isn't the all things are acceptable mentality or everybody gets a trophy. This is a something is missing - think of it as a personality defect, if you will. Not everyone is meant to be a parent, unfortunately some find that out after the fact. Some suck it up and live a miserable existence until their child is gone, some walk away, and some take their anger and resentment of the situation out on the child. Many times its a combination of all of the above. In a perfect world, people will know this about them self before they have children. We don't live in a perfect world. This isn't a matter of a parent feeling trapped but being a grown up and dealing with it. This is an extreme situation where there is going to be a bad outcome, no matter which choice is made. Sometimes the walking away is the least damaging end to a bad situation.

I agree!!! In some cases a child is better off if a bad parent leave their parental responsibilities to someone more capable. I think what people find appalling about the 20/20 mother is that she is promoting herself and her decision for monetary gain at her children's expense. She is trying to convince herself and anyone who will listen that she is a good mother. In her blog she stated that she thought the 20/20 interview would lead mor traffic to her blog (for donations) and book deals, etc. AND let's not forget the insensitive way she speaks about her child with Downs.

 

[LisaR]

Exactly. This isn't the all things are acceptable mentality or everybody gets a trophy. This is a something is missing - think of it as a personality defect, if you will. Not everyone is meant to be a parent, unfortunately some find that out after the fact. Some suck it up and live a miserable existence until their child is gone, some walk away, and some take their anger and resentment of the situation out on the child. Many times its a combination of all of the above. In a perfect world, people will know this about them self before they have children. We don't live in a perfect world. This isn't a matter of a parent feeling trapped but being a grown up and dealing with it. This is an extreme situation where there is going to be a bad outcome, no matter which choice is made. Sometimes the walking away is the least damaging end to a bad situation.

All that is fine, but don't go on TV and pretend you are Mother of the Year. Don't keep a blog about your terrific mothering skills and make disparaging remarks about your child with disabilities. No doubt you suck as a mother and human being if you choose to do these things and no doubt you will wind up being the topic of discussion on many messages boards.