To Infinity and Beyond - Becoming a Better DopeyBadger (Comments Welcome)

[Agent Z]

Thank you for being so inspirational! I signed up for the Wine and Dine 10k (my first ever 10k), and reading about your training has helped keep me motivated!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Thank you for being so inspirational! I signed up for the Wine and Dine 10k (my first ever 10k), and reading about your training has helped keep me motivated!

and !

So what's your motivation for signing up for your first ever 10k?

 

[canglim52]

Agreed!



Thanks! That's a fair question. To piggy-back off that question - Do I believe the biking is providing the stimulus that it claims to be in the training profile? I'm skeptical. If we believe %FTP, then probably yes. If we believe HRSS, then probably not.

Based on %FTP data (Zwift power data)
View attachment 315164

Based on HRSS data (Heart Rate Data)

View attachment 315163

If the data is to be believed, then I spent most of Dopey training hovering between "optimal" and "neutral (or sub-optimal)". From a two-week training load standpoint, I was at about 60-70 "training load 2 week average" for pretty much Feb-May 2017, July-Oct 2017, and Nov-December 2017. I just entered that area in the last week. The difference is my six-week training load is much less, thus instead of hovering in "neutral/optimal" I'm solidly in "optimal". It almost begs the question that I might have needed this rest period to help allow my training drop enough that I could get back into "optimal" training. We'll see on that front I guess.

View attachment 315167

With that being said, the data is dependent on whether the biking data is accurate. I've already covered why the biking data may or may not be accurate. However, I setup Stravistix to base the data output on the idea that my FTP is 299. Since I'm doing all my workouts on the basis of %FTP, then the output data should match up (regardless of whether the FTP itself is accurate). Thus, in theory the Stravistix data should be correct.

From a personal (and non-data) standpoint, I'm not fatigued in the least. The end of the biking workouts have been hard. The runs have been relatively easy. But from a fatigue standpoint, I'm doing great.

If we treat this recovery like my other reverse tapers (the buildup post-recovery into a new training plan), then this seems about right. With two weeks to go, I'm entering the same reverse taper standpoint to prepare the body for training. The question is whether near 100% running instead of 50/50 will still yield a "optimal" evaluation or if it'll push it into the "overload". I've got 39 miles this week (vs 33), 5:27 in duration (vs 4:47) and my first actual workout (10 miles at 7:25 on Saturday). This will help me figure out whether I've ventured too far yet.



Definitely tough. Excited to get back into more running and hopeful that it continues to progress well.

What are your thoughts on the Stravistix update? It appears they are slowly moving away from TRIMP. Do you feel there is any major difference in the accuracy of the data? For now I’ve changed it back to TRIMP...

 

[DopeyBadger]

What are your thoughts on the Stravistix update? It appears they are slowly moving away from TRIMP. Do you feel there is any major difference in the accuracy of the data? For now I’ve changed it back to TRIMP...

So TRIMP (training impulse) and HRSS (Heart Rate Stress Score) are related.

TRIMP is the summation of intensity and duration. The user's HR is the measure of intensity. So having an accurate resting HR and max HR are important for TRIMP to be accurate (since TRIMP uses the Heart Rate Reserve calculation).

%HRR = (HR − HRrest) / (HRmax − HRrest)

With the total formula being:

TrainingImpulse = [t=0min] ∑t δt × HRR × 0.64^(k × HRR) where k=1.92 (for mens) or k=1.67 (for women)

The Stravistix app seems to now claim that TRIMP is useful, but for the purpose of setting Form Training Zones (Optimal, Neutral, Overload, and Fresh) a person's Lactate Threshold Heart Rate should be taken into consideration as well.

So now the model relies on resting HR, max HR, and LTHR. This isn't a bad thing at all. It's known that from person to person these three HR variables can be different. A person with a resting HR of 40, max HR of 190 has a HRR of 150. But one person's LTHR could be 85% and another's 90%, which means an additional adjustment for this critical value could be very valuable. Elite level athletes have a higher %HRR for LTHR than do other athletes. So to get a more accurate indication of whether a training load is appropriate, this new to Stravistix data (HRSS) takes that into account.

HRR@LTHR = (LTHR − HRrest) / (HRmax − HRrest) and k=1.92 (for mens) or k=1.67 (for women)

Same calculation as HRR, just with a LTHR adjustment. This means they are determining the %HRR for LT for an individual.

OneHourTrimp@LTHR = 60min × HRR@LTHR × 0.64^(k × HRR@LTHR)

So, here they are just determining what the TRIMP score would be for an individual at that %HRR determined to be HRR@LTHR.

HRSS = (Activity Trimp) / (OneHourTrimp@LTHR) × 100

Lastly, they adjust the original TRIMP score with an adjustment taking into account what a maximal LTHR workout would be. It puts the TRIMP of today in the scope of a maximal LTHR workout for an individual person.

So, which is better? TRIMP or HRSS?

HRSS is better because it takes into account more individualistic data. BUT, it only becomes more valuable for those who have an accurate Lactate Threshold HR. Like yourself! Input your LTHR into the Stravistix app, and the calculations will be even more personalized to you. For people like me without a LTHR value from a measured source, Stravisitx just estimates 85% HRR which in effect defeats the purpose of the individualistic nature of it.

But a person like me could do a pretty good job figuring out their LTHR. Either through a 60 min race test, or possibly someway evaluating Threshold pacing workouts like Stravistix's suggestion (To find your LTHR do a 30 minutes Time Trial alone. Perform this TT like if it was a race. At 10 minutes elapsed into the test, start measuring your heart rate until the end. When done, check your average heart rate on these last 20 minutes. This value is your LTHR.).

Per McMillan, my estimated vLT is a 6:23 min/mile (based on my fitness assessment leading into Dopey). Based on previous Daniels T workouts, my average HR has been about 156-158. My 85% HRR LTHR is 158. So while the data might not be completely calibrated. I'd say it's probably pretty close for me.

With HRSS:



With TRIMP (not LTHR adjustment):



For me, since my LTHR is right near the pre-set value of 85% HRR, there's little difference between the graphs. The "value" is different (scale of 60 vs 100), but that value is arbitrary. It's the relationship of the values that means something.

*Definitions and calculations taken from the Stravistix app.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Another plan wrapped up!

Plan #151
Name: @sourire
Race/Distance: Hot Chocolate 15k, Philadelphia
Training Plan Duration (weeks): 11
Continuous or Run/Walk: Continuous
Days per Week: 3/wk x 4 wks then 4/wk x 8 wks
# of Hard Days (per week): 2 (including LR)
Peak Week Duration: 5:46
Peak Week Mileage: 26.6
Peak Single Run Duration: 2:06:56
Peak Single Run Mileage: 10
PR at Distance Going into it (including when it occurred): N/A
Expectations Going into it:
After the WDW Marathon in January, I was very excited for this 15k, mostly to prove to myself that my fitness and speed DID improve after that marathon training cycle. I hadn't run a race shorter than a half marathon since last spring, so I was anxious to see what would happen here.
How closely were you able to follow the plan as written:
Plan was followed very closely. It was initially written for 12 weeks, but we had the wrong date of the race (oops), and the actual training was 11 weeks long. We eliminated that 1 wk of training, I missed ~3 runs, and shortened a few others by 0.5-1 mile for various life reasons. My longest long run was 9.5 miles (scheduled for 10).
Testimonial:
This was my 4th DopeyBadger Plan (TM), and marks one year since starting to work with Billy. This year has been quite a journey, and I have accomplished so many run goals that I previously hadn't thought possible. As always, the proof is in the pudding: current fitness had me completing this race in about 1:44:30, and my time was 1:42:08. I negative split every mile, and ran the last 3 miles in paces that began with a 10:xx, which is absolutely huge for me. I am thrilled with the result!
The last year has made me stronger and faster, but also, I am more motivated with my running than ever before, and it has become easier and much more enjoyable. The mileage and duration I completed in training this March was basically equal to that which was run in both October and November, during marathon training, but you could have fooled me. I had to go back and look at the numbers more than once, because I just didn't believe it, and thought that perhaps the Coach had played a mind trick on me. I suspected that perhaps a somewhat lighter work schedule, better weather, the fact that I was training for something that wasn't my 1st marathon, all factored in to the feeling that the March training load was "lighter than usual," but the wise Coach pointed out that perhaps I am "getting stronger and thus more tolerant of the training load". Cheers to continued goal crushing, and many thanks again!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Things should start to roll here now. Two this weekend, then 9, then 6, then 7, etc. A total of 41 currently active plans, and in conversations with 5 additional new people.

 

[SarahDisney]

Do I count as being on a plan? It's kind of a hybrid situation, so I'm not sure...

 

[DopeyBadger]

Do I count as being on a plan? It's kind of a hybrid situation, so I'm not sure...

In my head yes, but per the Excel file that tracks these things no. This just helps me track when to connect with someone about "A" race weekend.

 

[garneska]

Looks like you are going to be busy writing plans again as these start wrapping up. Cant wait to hear how it all goes for everyone!!

 

[jennamfeo]

I wrap up at the beginning of May and then we start Half Marathon training for September and then we start Dopey training!!! AHHHH!

 

[canglim52]

So TRIMP (training impulse) and HRSS (Heart Rate Stress Score) are related.

TRIMP is the summation of intensity and duration. The user's HR is the measure of intensity. So having an accurate resting HR and max HR are important for TRIMP to be accurate (since TRIMP uses the Heart Rate Reserve calculation).

%HRR = (HR − HRrest) / (HRmax − HRrest)

With the total formula being:

TrainingImpulse = [t=0min] ∑t δt × HRR × 0.64^(k × HRR) where k=1.92 (for mens) or k=1.67 (for women)

The Stravistix app seems to now claim that TRIMP is useful, but for the purpose of setting Form Training Zones (Optimal, Neutral, Overload, and Fresh) a person's Lactate Threshold Heart Rate should be taken into consideration as well.

So now the model relies on resting HR, max HR, and LTHR. This isn't a bad thing at all. It's known that from person to person these three HR variables can be different. A person with a resting HR of 40, max HR of 190 has a HRR of 150. But one person's LTHR could be 85% and another's 90%, which means an additional adjustment for this critical value could be very valuable. Elite level athletes have a higher %HRR for LTHR than do other athletes. So to get a more accurate indication of whether a training load is appropriate, this new to Stravistix data (HRSS) takes that into account.

HRR@LTHR = (LTHR − HRrest) / (HRmax − HRrest) and k=1.92 (for mens) or k=1.67 (for women)

Same calculation as HRR, just with a LTHR adjustment. This means they are determining the %HRR for LT for an individual.

OneHourTrimp@LTHR = 60min × HRR@LTHR × 0.64^(k × HRR@LTHR)

So, here they are just determining what the TRIMP score would be for an individual at that %HRR determined to be HRR@LTHR.

HRSS = (Activity Trimp) / (OneHourTrimp@LTHR) × 100

Lastly, they adjust the original TRIMP score with an adjustment taking into account what a maximal LTHR workout would be. It puts the TRIMP of today in the scope of a maximal LTHR workout for an individual person.

So, which is better? TRIMP or HRSS?

HRSS is better because it takes into account more individualistic data. BUT, it only becomes more valuable for those who have an accurate Lactate Threshold HR. Like yourself! Input your LTHR into the Stravistix app, and the calculations will be even more personalized to you. For people like me without a LTHR value from a measured source, Stravisitx just estimates 85% HRR which in effect defeats the purpose of the individualistic nature of it.

But a person like me could do a pretty good job figuring out their LTHR. Either through a 60 min race test, or possibly someway evaluating Threshold pacing workouts like Stravistix's suggestion (To find your LTHR do a 30 minutes Time Trial alone. Perform this TT like if it was a race. At 10 minutes elapsed into the test, start measuring your heart rate until the end. When done, check your average heart rate on these last 20 minutes. This value is your LTHR.).

Per McMillan, my estimated vLT is a 6:23 min/mile (based on my fitness assessment leading into Dopey). Based on previous Daniels T workouts, my average HR has been about 156-158. My 85% HRR LTHR is 158. So while the data might not be completely calibrated. I'd say it's probably pretty close for me.

With HRSS:

View attachment 315247

With TRIMP (not LTHR adjustment):

View attachment 315246

For me, since my LTHR is right near the pre-set value of 85% HRR, there's little difference between the graphs. The "value" is different (scale of 60 vs 100), but that value is arbitrary. It's the relationship of the values that means something.

*Definitions and calculations taken from the Stravistix app.

Interesting! As always, great write up

 

[Jules76126]

I am really impressed that you have time for all those plans.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Looks like you are going to be busy writing plans again as these start wrapping up. Cant wait to hear how it all goes for everyone!!

I'm excited. I've got a feeling we're going to see quite a few special achievements.

I wrap up at the beginning of May and then we start Half Marathon training for September and then we start Dopey training!!! AHHHH!

I'm so excited for you. You've been crushing training thus far. I have a feeling 5/6 is going to be a really interesting day.

Interesting! As always, great write up

Happy to help!

I am really impressed that you have time for all those plans.

It certainly takes a lot of time (the initial writing, the mid-plan adjustments, and the answering questions from Day 1 to race day). I've got some decisions to make in the near future. But it brings me great joy to see so many people reap the benefits of all their hard work.

 

[lhermiston]

I'm excited. I've got a feeling we're going to see quite a few special achievements.



I'm so excited for you. You've been crushing training thus far. I have a feeling 5/6 is going to be a really interesting day.



Happy to help!



It certainly takes a lot of time (the initial writing, the mid-plan adjustments, and the answering questions from Day 1 to race day). I've got some decisions to make in the near future. But it brings me great joy to see so many people reap the benefits of all their hard work.

You’re a good guy, Billy. Thanks for all you do for folks around here.

 

[TeeterTots]

You’re a good guy, Billy. Thanks for all you do for folks around here.

Truly there are not enough words of appreciation!

 

[DopeyBadger]

You’re a good guy, Billy. Thanks for all you do for folks around here.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Truly there are not enough words of appreciation!

 

[Miranda]

I'm excited. I've got a feeling we're going to see quite a few special achievements.



I'm so excited for you. You've been crushing training thus far. I have a feeling 5/6 is going to be a really interesting day.



Happy to help!



It certainly takes a lot of time (the initial writing, the mid-plan adjustments, and the answering questions from Day 1 to race day). I've got some decisions to make in the near future. But it brings me great joy to see so many people reap the benefits of all their hard work.

Thank you for all you do. I know it must take you such a long time with so many people!

 

[Anisum]

Jumping in to say thanks! You've been a wonderful help to me and so many others on the boards. I think I can speak for myself and many other when I say we really appreciate it!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Thank you for all you do. I know it must take you such a long time with so many people!

Jumping in to say thanks! You've been a wonderful help to me and so many others on the boards. I think I can speak for myself and many other when I say we really appreciate it!

You're welcome!