Tiered FP+ for DHS

:thumbsup2 This is absolutely true. The point is that a big appeal for WDW is to be able to plan during the day to avoid the long lines. Other than characters, we rarely stand in line for anything for more than 20 minutes at WDW. We don't get up horribly early (usually arrive 15 or 20 minutes after rope drop), we aren't FP superusers, and we don't plan every minute of our day in advance. We avoid the lines while in park by pulling FPs for rides that have lines too long when we first get to that area of the park. We then go do everything else in the area and come back to the ride when our FP time hits. I know at some point we will be in a long line for a character, but we can manage our days by avoiding most of the long ride lines, and as a result we can fit a lot more into a day. It isn't even that much leg work. I know that I need to book it to Soarin or TSM when we arrive in the morning to get FPs (the one nice thing that the 1 FP+ helps out on) and that at AK I need to head to Safari, and MK PP first. Other than that- my leg work consists of walking to an area of the park with my family, seeing whether a line for a FP attraction is more than 20 minutes. If it is not, we get in line then. If it is, we pull a FP and do everything else in that area of the park until the FP kicks in. If the line is short enough that we get in it, we might still pull a FP for later if it is a favorite, but more often than not- if the line is that short, we just ride it twice in a row without FP and move on to something else. The only exception is that Splash, if DD wants to ride it, usually involves pulling a FP that kicks in much later, so we do usually have to cross the park back to that area.

Many of the posters attacking those who are not happy with FP+ seem to believe that all the complainers are FP superusers who ride the same ride in each park 4 or 5 times a day and take up too many FPs, that is not us at all (well- except for PP at MK when DD was little- but that also used to be pretty much the ONLY thing we FP at MK- and if DD didn't ride that one multiple times at MK when she was 2 and 3, then she didn't consider that a successful day. ;) - PP and Small World were what she wanted at that age- she was always asking to go back to one of those)

When we were there the first week in October, we never saw the line for Test Track or Soarin at less than an hour on the days we were at EPCOT and usually those lines were 90 minutes. What we are used to doing is FPing both those rides to avoid long lines there, but then we might wait in line for 30 minutes to an hour each to meet Jasmine and Aladdin and then Belle. Normally, those are the only 2 FPs we get in a day at EPCOT- we might occasionally FP Soarin twice, but never more than that. Now in addition to spending about an hour and a half in lines for Belle and Jasmine/Aladdin, if the park has the lines it did the week we were there in October, we will have to spend another hour to an hour and a half in the line for either Test Track or Soarin because we can now only get a FP for one of those 2 rides. There is 2 to 3 1/2 hours of our day gone in lines already for only 3 things. The lack of being able to get one of the 2 FPs we get in a day has added an hour to an hour and a half of wait time into our day. The tiered system of FP+ is extremely limiting in how much you can do in a day in a park. Because the 2nd tier is things you never needed a FP for on low or even "regular" crowd days, you are now relegated to long lines in all but one Tier 1 attraction- so basically FP+ in reality limits you to 1 FP a day. I firmly believe that those who think this is going to make the standby lines shorter are totally wrong. Look at Six Flags- the lines there are consistently long. Also, I'm old enough to remember pre FP days, and what I remember are long lines for everything.

I think this is one of the most reasonable counter-FP+ arguments I've heard. :) I have to agree w you, that most ppl are in general, going to want to FP Soarin and Test Track. I think they should settle on a system where T1 includes Soarin, TT, and MS (and Maelstrom and the Mexico ride so the kid-familes have options too). And you get to pick 2 from T1.

The real question there, is "if everyone going to EC in a day wants 1 FP to Soarin and 1 FP to TT, do those rides have the capacity to handle every person going thru the FP line once?"

I'm sure Disney knows the answer, and I'd like to think it's "yes". When FP- goes away, there will be more FP capacity for FP+. Right now they're having to balance two systems thru a transitional period.
 

If the goal is to have the fairest system possible (which I don't think it is) then wouldn't the fairest system be to eliminate FPs completely?

The FP- system gives an advantage to certain people and their parties based on their makeup. For example, the family of 4 with 2 adults can send 1 adult off to get FPs while the other adult takes the kids to another line. When the FP runner arrives at the other line he pushes past the other people in line to join the rest of the family.

Even without the line jumping (which I realize not everyone does) a single adult with one or more children can't dash off to FP distribution stations as quickly or frequently.

If you want fairness, throw open the gates and let everyone fight it out over the standby lines. That's how it was for our first 4 or 5 WDW trips with our kids and we had a great time.
 
If the goal is to have the fairest system possible (which I don't think it is) then wouldn't the fairest system be to eliminate FPs completely?

The FP- system gives an advantage to certain people and their parties based on their makeup. For example, the family of 4 with 2 adults can send 1 adult off to get FPs while the other adult takes the kids to another line. When the FP runner arrives at the other line he pushes past the other people in line to join the rest of the family.

Even without the line jumping (which I realize not everyone does) a single adult with one or more children can't dash off to FP distribution stations as quickly or frequently.

If you want fairness, throw open the gates and let everyone fight it out over the standby lines. That's how it was for our first 4 or 5 WDW trips with our kids and we had a great time.

FP/FP+ is obviously not about fairness. I mean, in a sense, yes, FP+ is fairer to many late sleeper families and 1st day arrivals who can now see attractions they would have had no shot at otherwise. But getting rid of all Fastpasses is unfair... to Disney. They don't want you sitting on line all day when you can be spending money elsewhere.
 
Oh, good.

Now people are going to use these forums to make thinly veiled partisan political comments.

Like there haven't been plenty of comments from the other side as well in various other threads over the time I have been here.. And those comments weren't veiled or made in a joking manner... they were pretty straight forward. I actually understand the feeling that politics do not belong in a Disney forum but, it needs to work both ways. I thought the joke in this thread you were referring to was hilarious by the way.
 
Here are the main arguments people are making against people who are expressing trepidation or unhappiness with the changes Disney is implementing:

1. Everyone should get the same number of FPs. This is a fair system; stop acting so entitled!

This is the basis of Marxist theory. I am a bleeding heart liberal through and through, but I completely disagree with employing this method for anything in human life - politics, economics, social issues or business.

The legacy FP system was as "fair" as fair comes, because everyone had equal OPPORTUNITY to utilize it. My family's use of 6 to 8 FPs per day was not given to us, but required us to expend effort in order to obtain that - by doing more research, waking up earlier, walking faster, etc. I refuse to believe that people who expend less effort than people who expend more should be ENTITLED - to use your term in its appropriate definition, contrary to what you have done - to the same reward. "Entitled" means one feels they should get something for nothing, or at least that the item received should be disproportionate with the amount of work expended. I don't feel that way at all - I welcome the opportunity to work as hard as I can to obtain the maximum reward, and wish that opportunity to be available to all people.

Is Disney truly conducting an economic experiment in Marxism? I don't know. Given the lesson to be learned from history, I would hope not. But I would not be that surprised. I am, however, surprised to see so many people on this board supporting this type of argument, as I have to wonder if they would feel the same way about other aspects of their lives - if your professor decided to average all test scores and assign everyone the same grade, or your employer decided to use your entire department's performance when determining your raise, rather than your own individual effort, would this be acceptable to you?

2. This system is great for me, therefore it should be good enough for you.


There's little counterargument for this one; one may as well bash one's head repeatedly into a wall. Nothing is universally useful to everyone. That is a basic truth that should be apparent to anyone. It's one thing to not share the opinion of another, but to be unable to comprehend the possibility that other opinions exist is a problem that runs deeper than any argument can address.

3. There are worse things. First world problems, etc.


Ah, the comparative virtue fallacy. Indeed, there are worse things. And there always will be, unless all of humanity can agree on THE worst thing by which all other things must be judged. Seeing as that's pretty much not going to happen - ever - we instead need to agree that it's all relative and each experience must be judged independent of others, on its own merit. I could tell the person who has a high-strung toddler, "Get over it, it could be worse - you could have a child with Down syndrome like I do" and then my friend could tell me, "No, you get over it, you could have a child with CP in a nearly vegetative state like I do." This is not a rational argument. This is the desperate act of someone incapable of engaging in rational argument. Human experience is not measured on some universal hierarchy; each of our experiences - and the thoughts, emotions and goals that result from those - is unique to us and equally worthy of respect.

4. You're in Disney. It's a vacation. Just enjoy it!

This is a similar argument to #3, but it also adds an element of naivete by assuming that one cannot possibly have complaints about an experience while also enjoying themselves. As I stated before, this is perfectly normal psychological functioning to be able to experience conflicting emotions at once. Enjoying an experience does not exempt you from disappointment, nor does it remove your right to complain. If you were eating at a favorite restaurant and your steak was seriously underdone, that doesn't mean you can't still enjoy the restaurant or the fabulous dessert that follows, nor does it mean you should refrain from sending the steak back and voicing your opinion to the chef. This common oversimplification of human motivation being employed on this forum is concerning.

5. Reserve judgment until after your trip - you can't possibly complain before that point!

There are two problems with this argument; the first being that it again shows a lack of understanding of human motivation, and in so doing also shows a lack of self-awareness on the part of the person making the argument. All humans engage in pre-assessment of a situation; it's actually a wonderful part of our ability to adapt to our environment and survive. If we did not attempt to assess and form some rudimentary opinions on future events, we'd be floundering around waiting for the future to become the present. I am able to decide to allot 12 hours for my final paper in my class because I am able to make an estimation of the amount of work that will be required in order for me to obtain my desired grade. I suppose some might approach life with an attitude of, "I don't know how long it'll take me, I guess I'll see when I get started" which is all fine unless you don't allow enough of a potential time cushion and later find you needed more time than you had. The key is to remain mentally flexible and able to adapt to new information that might alter your pre-assessment. This means I'm capable of feeling trepidation and dislike for the new system I'll be using, while still recognizing that I may be surprised and alter my opinion after our trip. The fact that we may change our opinions with new information does not mean that we should - nor that we are even mentally capable of! - withhold all initial judgments based on the information we have in the present time.


I respect that others think this system is a positive change - and I have no desire to change that opinion, as I don't see how changing the opinion of others provides any benefit for me. Disney has invested a lot of money into this enterprise, they have a final vision in mind already, and even if I managed to convince the pre-RD crowd at HS to join me in a mass peaceful protest, Disney would not veer from this course.

I do not, however, appreciate the level of animosity that is consistently being expressed against people like myself who are expressing concern, worry, stress, anger, or any other negative emotion over the changes taking place. Does my negative opinion somehow take away from the value of your positive one? Some people here apparently think it does, and I'm not quite sure why.

Wow. Very well written. I would hate to go up against you on a debate team. ::yes::
 
Wow. Very well written. I would hate to go up against you on a debate team. ::yes::

The problem with her/his argument about peoples' "first world problems' being part of the "human experience" is a bit silly, I think. I think every rational person on this board recognizes that in the grand scheme of things, having only three fast passes is NOT a big deal. There are millions of families who would love to be in the position to take their kids to Walt Disney World. Have some perspective. You don't want to wait in line for an hour with your perfectly healthy family? Sorry, don't feel sorry for you.
 
The problem with her/his argument about peoples' "first world problems' being part of the "human experience" is a bit silly, I think. I think every rational person on this board recognizes that in the grand scheme of things, having only three fast passes is NOT a big deal. There are millions of families who would love to be in the position to take their kids to Walt Disney World. Have some perspective. You don't want to wait in line for an hour with your perfectly healthy family? Sorry, don't feel sorry for you.

Except the context of the argument is that it's on a Disney forum. If we were debating issues on universe.com or wherever, EVERYTHING here is pretty darn silly.
 
There are millions of families who would love to be in the position to take their kids to Walt Disney World. Have some perspective. You don't want to wait in line for an hour with your perfectly healthy family? Sorry, don't feel sorry for you.

It's a Disney forum. There are always people in a worse situation, no matter what it is.

All things are relative. Millionaires still should be able to complain in life. Everyone has their own perspective. The idea that people shouldn't air complaints on an internet forum because the problems are really small is ridiculous.

Nobody wants you to feel sorry for them, but if you open the thread, you should probably either read with empathy or ignore it.

I'm not feeling sorry for you either.
 
The problem with her/his argument about peoples' "first world problems' being part of the "human experience" is a bit silly, I think. I think every rational person on this board recognizes that in the grand scheme of things, having only three fast passes is NOT a big deal. There are millions of families who would love to be in the position to take their kids to Walt Disney World. Have some perspective. You don't want to wait in line for an hour with your perfectly healthy family? Sorry, don't feel sorry for you.
1) um, I live in the first world. Sorry, but it's true. All my life problems are "first world problems". They are still my problems/issues.
2) I will not apologize for being better off than some. I've worked hard for it. And, guess what, there are many more that are way better off than me
3) This is a Disney message board. It's not like this is something I talk about in my real life elsewhere. It's pretty much limited to here and to family discussions on vacations. OK, OK, I do have one friend who is a Disney junkie too and we discuss it from time to time and since this summer, I've asked other people I know in the real world how they liked disney.
4) My family isn't perfectly healthy, thank you. Two of my kids have various medical issues that will always be lifelong issues.

Sent from my iPad using DISBoards
 
Wow. Very well written. I would hate to go up against you on a debate team. ::yes::

We've already covered the problem with point #1.

Point number 2 is essentially the reverse of the primary argument made by people who are most upset about FP+. Many of them have insisted that nobody but Disney benefits from FP + despite many posts pointing out how FP+ can benefit them or others with different touring approaches than FP chasers.

The other arguments are ones I would never make, so I'm not going to try to refute them.

But, let's also not act like the animosity and willingness to understand and respect others' opinions only runs one way.
 
Ok, wis, tell us how someone staying offsite and who will get leftover FP+'s, how does that benefit them? You have ALL onsite guests (and believe me, there are many) who have guaranteed 3 rides, say in Epcot. How exactly does this benefit the people offsite?
 
We found that the new FP+ system makes it easier for someone to jump into a park for a little over an hour and ride their 3 rides and get out without hitting any shops or restaurants at all. We did that on a couple of our designated "resort days" in August.

Haven't finished reading the thread but this is what I expect for our family. Being able to get FPs all day is what kept our family in the park from RD to closing. And since our family stays off-site, the minute we walk out of the gate, Disney doesn't get any more money from us. This is if we are ever to get FP+s.
 
Thanks for the complimentary responses :)

I don't have a perfectly healthy family, two of my boys have special needs that make daily life a challenge and despite that, I have no problem talking about "first world problems." As long as no one is falling into a major depressive episode, developing anxiety or contemplating suicide over their Disney trip, we're all okay in all our various ways of reacting to and coping with stress, even "luxury stress"!

I definitely understand how FP+ can be a great positive for many people, and that's great. I am not at all upset to read threads raving about their FP+ experience, in fact I actually seek out those posts to help me keep, beneath my concerns, a positive perspective, as that perspective can go a long way in how we assess stress.

My original point was I don't understand why some people can't just let people vent, or express hope that their vacation turns out better than they think it will, and move on.

Debating the system is one thing, but the personal attacks (which is what my original lengthy post was responding to) are just not healthy for anyone.

I don't care for how I -think- FP+ will change my touring, nor for the extra planning I've felt required to invest. But hey, our customized maps arrived this afternoon and I had a ton of fun sitting around the dining room table with my crew, putting those little gold stickers on our family's favorite attractions and listening to park music. Yes, a part of me was going over my TPs in my mind to make sure I had covered each attraction that stubby little fingers found sticker-worthy, but mostly I just enjoyed the moment with them and trusted that our investment in a longer trip this time would give me ample room to make sure I worked those rides in. :thumbsup2
 
Ok, wis, tell us how someone staying offsite and who will get leftover FP+'s, how does that benefit them? You have ALL onsite guests (and believe me, there are many) who have guaranteed 3 rides, say in Epcot. How exactly does this benefit the people offsite?

First, you should explain to me where I ever said that EVERYONE benefits from FP+.

It is inevitable that some people will benefit and some people won't, but we won't really even know that until the final parameters of the program are established.

At least you have proven my point that it's not just supporters of FP+ that display animosity and don't respect the opinions of others.
 
No animosity intended. Don't see where you got that I was impolite in any way.

And no matter WHO gets FP+ or FP-, Disney wins
 
No animosity intended. Don't see where you got that I was impolite in any way.

And no matter WHO gets FP+ or FP-, Disney wins.

I was reacting to you asking me to defend a position that I never took in the first place.
 


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