Tiered FP+ for DHS

[mom2rtk]

We found that the new FP+ system makes it easier for someone to jump into a park for a little over an hour and ride their 3 rides and get out without hitting any shops or restaurants at all. We did that on a couple of our designated "resort days" in August.

Dang those unintended consequences!

 

[Mad Hattered]

If I stand in line to buy tickets for the Milwaukee Brewers home opener, I am limited to how many I can buy and I CANNOT buy more just by paying a higher price. Are the Milwaukee Brewers Marxists?

I have a bigger question....why in the hell would you stand in line for Milwaukee Brewers tickets in the first place??

 

[Angel Ariel]

Your logic is so flawed here. This is not about supply rationing. It is about profit maximizing.

How do you know it's not about both?

Disney found that by getting MORE guests onto 3 rides (even not necessarily all headliners) those 3 rides will satiate the need for those ppl to be waiting in long lines for rides, and they will move on to food, shops, or go back to their pool and buy drinks

Has Disney stated this somewhere? The rationale that I've seen from Disney execs for FP+ is that they want to lock people in to their Disney days. They think that booking a ride on x ride before their trip will guarantee that they don't spend those days heading off to one of their competitors.

I have seen nothing that suggests Disney is implementing FP+ because of "aggressive FP- runners" eating up all of the FPs (aside from the conjecture and assumptions of some here, that is).

 

[stairstepmom]

Your logic is so flawed here. This is not about supply rationing. It is about profit maximizing. Disney found that by getting MORE guests onto 3 rides (even not necessarily all headliners) those 3 rides will satiate the need for those ppl to be waiting in long lines for rides, and they will move on to food, shops, or go back to their pool and buy drinks.

On the other hand letting the aggressive FP- runners grab all the FPs, those runners (and their families) are riding all day long (yay!) but not spending money in shops, while the rest of everybody is waiting in lines, and also not in shops.

Most guests, after riding 3 rides quickly, and a few more via moderate lines, along w their time in restaurants, taking pictures, touring and seeing characters, will see that as a "pretty full day". You may not because you are used to getting a wallet of fp tickets. But Disney getting you on a disproportionate number of rides quickly ranks 0 in their list of things to do to maximize profit.

Disney's motivation is not mutually exclusive to basic economics. I wasn't arguing WHY they would want to assign 3 FP+s, I was simply stating how supply rationing of that sort would be classified. There's no question of logic - it's possible for them to have Motivation A while still meeting the criteria for Definition B.

And yes, the biggest difference between FP+s and milk is that the consumer looking for milk can go to another store and buy some if they don't like the first store's rationing. And so someone can go to another theme park if they don't like Disney rationing FP+s.

In fact, applying a Marxist principle in business is perfectly legal and acceptable (as long as Vera Bradley doesn't state a limit of two per white customer, one per African-American, etc) and in some situations where the demand is high enough and consistent, a smart practice.

However, I would have appreciated it being clearly stated somewhere before I spent $3k on my nonrefundable park tickets. That's the kicker here. Back to the milk analogy, the freedom of a business to employ a Marxist principle won't go over very well if they charged admission to their store and only told you about their milk rationing after you had already paid said admission, causing a loss to the consumer despite their ability to drive down the street to another store for that second gallon of milk.

 

[wisblue]

That is solely to avoid scalpers re-selling tickets.

Maybe, but that doesn't make the policy Marxist.

Look, I get that different people have different opinions about FP+ vs FP-. I also get the opinions that one system or the other is fairer.

But, these arguments that FP- is a perfect example of good old American capitalism and ingenuity at its finest, and FP+ is an example of evil communism, have to be the most laughably over the top arguments that anyone has made.

 

[MrInfinity]

Rationing orchestrated by an external authority - whether that be the government, or a corporation - is not consistent with a market economy.

Aaah... but loss leaders most certainly are!

If Walmart has a sale on a $100 phone for $10... but says "Limit 1" that is not "supply rationing" like you are alleging.

Picture no limit. (aka FP-) eager beaver gets up early, goes to Walmart, buys all their 100 phones in stock. Wooo! Happy buyer. Walmart lost money on every phone, and got no extra sales. Meanwhile 99 other ppl show up and get nothing, and look for the deal elsewhere.

Now limit 1 (aka FP+) eager beaver gets up early, goes to Walmart, and can only buy 1 phone. Boo! She cries because last time she was able to get 100. Meanwhile 99 other ppl also get 1 phone and buy a case for it, groceries, and some nick nacks too. Walmart scores big.

Disney is not interested in the 1 who wants to suck up all their rides. They are interested in the 99 who want to ride some and then spend more money.

It's got nothing to do w supply rationing or Disney giving you less. Disney owns all the rides. They are choosing to sell them in certain quantities to induce the maximum number of ppl to first of all stay on property to get any at all, and then to get on and off rides as quick as possible and get them spending money on incidentals. It's not personal or Disney rationing you, or giving you less. They were never giving you anything in the first place, they're simply changing what they're offering for you to buy.

 

[DougEMG]

We found that the new FP+ system makes it easier for someone to jump into a park for a little over an hour and ride their 3 rides and get out without hitting any shops or restaurants at all. We did that on a couple of our designated "resort days" in August.

I can see us doing the same thing.

I wonder if Disney included that in their models when determing how much money this was all going to bring in.

 

[WillAustin]

But, these arguments that FP- is a perfect example of good old American capitalism and ingenuity at its finest, and FP+ is an example of evil communism, have to be the most laughably over the top arguments that anyone has made.

I agree with you.

I don't believe "fairness" had any part in the motivation for the FP changes and haven't seen any evidence for it at all.

 

[wisblue]

I have a bigger question....why in the hell would you stand in line for Milwaukee Brewers tickets in the first place??

People who stand in line to get Brewers Opening Day tickets are doing it because Brewers Opening Day is a local version of Mardi Gras or St. Patrick's Day that starts with big tailgate parties in the parking lots early in the morning. They won't let people into the parking lots without game tickets.

 

[surferdave]

I can see us doing the same thing.

I wonder if Disney included that in their models when determing how much money this was all going to bring in.

I think that's why it will be tiered all the time. You'll be able to do this as long as your 3 rides only include 1 headliner, and 2 you wouldn't have waited for anyway (and many people wouldn't hang around in the park for).

 

[wisblue]

I can see us doing the same thing.

I wonder if Disney included that in their models when determing how much money this was all going to bring in.

There are always going to be people who follow an unusual pattern and they aren't going to have much of an impact one way or another.

I have to assume that you have an AP, otherwise you aren't getting much for your one day of park admission plus parking. And, if you have an AP, Disney has gotten its money from you.

 

[MrInfinity]

How do you know it's not about both?

Cuz Disney is a corporation. What matters is profit. They're not some happiness-deity trying to ration equal amounts of amusement to people. Honestly that's kind of amusing to even think of.

Has Disney stated this somewhere? The rationale that I've seen from Disney execs for FP+ is that they want to lock people in to their Disney days.

I would agree w you here and postulate that locking ppl in to their days also leads to higher profit. It allows them to predict attendance, plan employees, prevent ppl from changing parks due to a special event, etc. We know D wants to lock ppl into parks by both the changes to FP and to the ADR cancellation.

They think that booking a ride on x ride before their trip will guarantee that they don't spend those days heading off to one of their competitors.

I don't think it's so much about the competitors... once you're on Disney property, if you go to Universal for a day, that's a waste cuz you're paying to be on Disney.

I have seen nothing that suggests Disney is implementing FP+ because of "aggressive FP- runners" eating up all of the FPs (aside from the conjecture and assumptions of some here, that is).

No, it's to maximize profit. Again. Instead of one "runner-type" riding 7 times and 5 other ppl riding 1 time and then waiting in line for an hour, they would rather those same 6 people each ride 2 times, and then go do something else more profitable.

 

[johde]

Your comparison is imperfect. While a store may offer a special price on a product and only allow one product at that price to be purchased by a consumer, the consumer is then able to purchase additional products - albeit at its higher, original price - as they so desire. It would be rather shocking to go to the grocery store with a coupon for a gallon of milk for $2, and to be willing to pay the original $3 for a second gallon but be told by the clerk that you are not "allowed" to buy more than one gallon, regardless of price.

If Disney were to offer the option of purchasing additional FP+, I would no longer compare the system to Marxism. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with that as I would be open to paying for additional FP+. Purchasing power is also an extension of individual effort.

Assigning 3 FP+ to every guest, with no option to obtain more through effort (whether that's physical effort or financial effort), is supply rationing - and the only rationing valid in a free market is the natural rationing that occurs from supply/demand of the price system that works not on an arbitrary external authority but on the effort and decision-making of each consumer. Rationing orchestrated by an external authority - whether that be the government, or a corporation - is not consistent with a market economy.

Using your logic to play devils advocate, Using your milk analogy. You walk into the store with a coupon for $2.00 milk the clerk says fine. You try to get and use another coupon and the clerk says sorry 1 coupon per customer. If you want more milk you'll need to pay $3.00 a gallon. You have a FP for SM the CM says Hi welcome to the FP line for SM ($2.00 milk). If you try to get and use another FP the computer says sorry limit 1 FP per ride per customer. If you want to ride again you'll need to wait in the standby line (pay full price) At this time, FP is not the product, the ride is the product the FP is a coupon. Stores all over the U.S. limit how many coupons you can use in 1 trip and how many of the same coupons you can use. I can also remember back in the day where companies would interleave 2 coupons in such a way where if you used one coupon you couldn't use the other.

Nobody is saying you can't ride SM 10 times in a day if you have a magic band and FP+. All they are saying is you can only get the benefit of using the FP line ones.

 

[Pooksie]

WDW Magic reports:

http://www.wdwmagic.com/other/mymag...sting-restrictions-on-fastpass-selections.htm

I know we knew this was coming...but it's still a ridiculous disappointment. Hopefully it goes away after the "testing phase."

All rides in all parks will be tiered. As I have postulated, Disney will start selling additional FP+ reservations beyond the three you get per day for an additional fee. The higher the tier, the more the additional a la carte FP+ reservations will cost.

Thus the reason for limiting you to three per day and for having tiered rides at all of the parks. If they are going to sell additional FP+ reservations, they need guests to have incentive to buy them. Having tiered rides in all parks and limiting you to three FP+ per day is the incentive. The perfect storm is developing quickly now.

 

[stairstepmom]

Jeremy - you certainly have a point, one could say the FP/FP+ is not the product. Disney certainly markets it as part of the product though. In fact, I'd say they hope to use it as one of their main product selling points, which makes it difficult to separate it from the rides.


With my limited education in economics except as it relates to my field, I'm not sure which food analogy best illustrates this point LOL!

I can only speculate on Disney's reasoning in the system, as I often feel there's a serious disconnect between applied economic theory and basic human motivation. I can only say that we are going with a budget of X for food and spending, and neither MB nor the illusion of shortened lines will change that budget. I have no doubt Disney's culturally iconic standing will afford them great latitude in all of this with new consumers constantly appearing, but from my perspective they are taking quite a gamble - the attempt to get us to spend a few hundred dollars more, if that's the simplified version of what they're doing, may very well result in their loss of $30,000 from our family over the next 4 years.

That might not be true for other families and that's perfectly fine and perhaps what they are banking on.

 

[WillAustin]

All rides in all parks will be tiered. As I have postulated, Disney will start selling additional FP+ reservations beyond the three you get per day for an additional fee. The higher the tier, the more the additional a la carte FP+ reservations will cost.

Thus the reason for limiting you to three per day and for having tiered rides at all of the parks. If they are going to sell additional FP+ reservations, they need guests to have incentive to buy them. Having tiered rides in all parks and limiting you to three FP+ per day is the incentive. The perfect storm is developing quickly now.

I'd be one of the first to sign up for buying extra FPs. I still don't think they are going that direction though.

 

[mom2rtk]

Nobody is saying you can't ride SM 10 times in a day if you have a magic band and FP+. All they are saying is you can only get the benefit of using the FP line ones.

And the insurance company I used to work for used to tell people "We're not saying you can't have the surgery, only that we won't pay for it."

 

[mom2rtk]

I'd be one of the first to sign up for buying extra FPs. I still don't think they are going that direction though.

I would be reluctant, but I would do it too.

But like you, I also don't think they will. There's just not enough capacity. It's back to the math again.

 

[ktlm]

As has been repeated ad nasuem around here, is that prior to FP+, people willing to put a in little leg work were able to reap the benefits of shorter lines. Put in the work, get the reward, it was a perfect fair system. Any parent who was motivated (and trust me, any parent of an active little boy IS motivated), could have a vacation with minimal stress and maximum fun.

Anyone can do what I did, ANYONE could have the vacations that I had, there is nothing special about me. Some people chose to vacation differently than I do, but it was choice.

Now, no matter how motivated or hard working I am at Disney, I have to choose one short wait and one longer wait. This is a distinct reduction, no matter how you try to dress it up in pixie dust.

There is a reason why we don't go to traditional amusement parks and its because of the waits, and no, interactive queues don't make up for increased wait times.

This is absolutely true. The point is that a big appeal for WDW is to be able to plan during the day to avoid the long lines. Other than characters, we rarely stand in line for anything for more than 20 minutes at WDW. We don't get up horribly early (usually arrive 15 or 20 minutes after rope drop), we aren't FP superusers, and we don't plan every minute of our day in advance. We avoid the lines while in park by pulling FPs for rides that have lines too long when we first get to that area of the park. We then go do everything else in the area and come back to the ride when our FP time hits. I know at some point we will be in a long line for a character, but we can manage our days by avoiding most of the long ride lines, and as a result we can fit a lot more into a day. It isn't even that much leg work. I know that I need to book it to Soarin or TSM when we arrive in the morning to get FPs (the one nice thing that the 1 FP+ helps out on) and that at AK I need to head to Safari, and MK PP first. Other than that- my leg work consists of walking to an area of the park with my family, seeing whether a line for a FP attraction is more than 20 minutes. If it is not, we get in line then. If it is, we pull a FP and do everything else in that area of the park until the FP kicks in. If the line is short enough that we get in it, we might still pull a FP for later if it is a favorite, but more often than not- if the line is that short, we just ride it twice in a row without FP and move on to something else. The only exception is that Splash, if DD wants to ride it, usually involves pulling a FP that kicks in much later, so we do usually have to cross the park back to that area.

Many of the posters attacking those who are not happy with FP+ seem to believe that all the complainers are FP superusers who ride the same ride in each park 4 or 5 times a day and take up too many FPs, that is not us at all (well- except for PP at MK when DD was little- but that also used to be pretty much the ONLY thing we FP at MK- and if DD didn't ride that one multiple times at MK when she was 2 and 3, then she didn't consider that a successful day. - PP and Small World were what she wanted at that age- she was always asking to go back to one of those)

When we were there the second week in October, we never saw the line for Test Track or Soarin at less than an hour on the days we were at EPCOT and usually those lines were 90 minutes. What we are used to doing is FPing both those rides to avoid long lines there, but then we might wait in line for 30 minutes to an hour each to meet Jasmine and Aladdin and then Belle. Normally, those are the only 2 FPs we get in a day at EPCOT- we might occasionally FP Soarin twice, but never more than that. Now in addition to spending about an hour and a half in lines for Belle and Jasmine/Aladdin, if the park has the lines it did the week we were there in October, we will have to spend another hour to an hour and a half in the line for either Test Track or Soarin because we can now only get a FP for one of those 2 rides. There is 2 to 3 1/2 hours of our day gone in lines already for only 3 things. The lack of being able to get one of the 2 FPs we get in a day has added an hour to an hour and a half of wait time into our day. The tiered system of FP+ is extremely limiting in how much you can do in a day in a park. Because the 2nd tier is things you never needed a FP for on low or even "regular" crowd days, you are now relegated to long lines in all but one Tier 1 attraction- so basically FP+ in reality limits you to 1 FP a day. I firmly believe that those who think this is going to make the standby lines shorter are totally wrong. Look at Six Flags- the lines there are consistently long. Also, I'm old enough to remember pre FP days, and what I remember are long lines for everything.

 

[WillAustin]

I would be reluctant, but I would do it too.

But like you, I also don't think they will. There's just not enough capacity. It's back to the math again.

Maybe I'll spend 3 years saving up so we can hire a VIP guide for our next trip.