This is my training journal. I'm bad at titles. (Comments welcome!)

[DopeyBadger]

Fabulous PR! Way to go!

 

[garneska]

Happy Birthday! Hope this year is filled with happiness and PRs.

 

[striker1064]

Thanks so much everyone! I also do see the aforementioned photo of me looking like a drowned rat, but a single picture is $30! So nah, I shan't be posting that, lol.

So glad you’re finding joy through running, even more impressive when the weather and your shoes aren’t cooperating.

I think this is a really great observation, and it's something I noticed as I was reflecting on my training going into the race yesterday. At some point last year, running went from something I enjoyed to a grind I needed to keep my sanity. I didn't even notice how, when, or where it happened, but it did, and it all culminated in the marathon in November. My biggest fear as the calendar turned to 2023 was that joy had been permanently taken from me, but thanks to a truly wonderful therapist and surrounding myself with positivity around running - both through this forum and my running club - I've reclaimed it stronger than ever. And I'm never letting it slip away again!

 

[striker1064]

May 1 - May 7

Total Distance: 19.5mi
Total Time: 3h 13min

Monday: 6 Miles Easy + Strides
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Rest
Thursday: Rest
Friday: Rest
Saturday: 6 Miles Easy
Sunday: 7.5 Miles Easy

Yup, a definitely toned-down week. I felt pretty good Monday post-race so I went out for a run with my running club, which was great as always, but I woke up Tuesday feeling way fatigued and sore. I made the conscious decision to rest the remainder of the week. I guess 2 all-out racing efforts is enough to leave anyone feeling tapped out!

By Thursday I was itching to run again, so I timed it well. Anytime I take a planned break due to injury, fatigue, or burnout, I always shoot to take one more day off after the first time I wake up and feel like I have to do something. I'd rather take one extra rest day than come back one day too early!

Ugh, and the humidity is back.

Saturday was the annual Passport DC Around the World Embassy Tour. About 60 embassies opened their doors to the public, with displays about that country's culture. Some embassies also have music, dancing, food, and drink. A group of us headed to Barbados first (because rum), then checked out Ukraine and Gabon, then wandered around the neighborhood a bit. Great day! Highly recommend this if you're ever in DC the first weekend in May.

What's Next

I seem to have found myself roped into the running segment of a relay triathlon in Delaware this Sunday. Should be fun! I've never done one before.

The Capitol Hill Classic 10k is Sunday, May 21. Much like last year, I'm sure I'll run it with the intention of getting the best time I can, but it was very clear from this week I will once again not be fully trained on it. And that's okay! Several friends are running it, and it's a great little course, so it'll be a fun day no matter what. Besides, the real goal remains in sight:

Fall Goal: Marine Corps Marathon, Sunday, October 29, 2023

So yes, I know it probably seems really silly that I was soliciting fall races outside of the DC area. My original idea with Dopey registration was to find a tune-up half marathon in the fall, with the intention of the Dopey marathon as my goal A race. However, the more I thought about it, the more I realized just how hard it was going to be to still run a great race without the experience of having done Dopey before, so I started to think a bit more about what I wanted to do.

Someone in run club asked me if I was doing Marine Corps, and once the idea got in my head I couldn't get it out. It's been such a wildly productive 2023 for me so far, and this gives me the chance to try again on the last thing that still bothers me from last year. I can do a full training cycle dedicated to the marathon, run a great race that's right here at home, and (hopefully) feel much better about the whole thing than I did after my full last year. And I appreciate the fall suggestions - I've got them marked for a future year for sure!

I don't know yet what my goals will be for this one other than sub-4:00 and run the whole thing. I intend to practice with significantly more nutrition, as I've read that many runners can benefit with up to 90g carbs per hour on race day (which is a lot!). I've noticed a difference in both training and at the Broad Street Run with using many more carbs than I had before.

For training, I'm sticking with Daniels and the V.O2 app. I made two huge gains so far this year that I literally thought were impossible, so I see no reason to change things up. I'm focusing on base-building, and I'd like to aim for a 16-week cycle, so I'll get started on July 10. This time around I'd like to increase my mileage if I can, and potentially top out at 55-60 miles per week or so on the 1Q plan (one quality day, one long run day, 3 easy run days, 2 rest days). That will all depend on how my body is feeling over the next couple of months, though.

It's all very exciting and nerve-wracking at the same time!

 

[azrivest]

I'm impressed by all the ambitious goals (especially the sub4), but as you wrote it yourself, you made two huge gains so far so why not keep going!

 

[prncssjas]

Congrats on the PR and amazing running!!! And yah for a birthday thrown in for good measure!! Celebrate!!!

 

[striker1064]

I'm impressed by all the ambitious goals (especially the sub4)

The crazy thing is, sub-4 should be totally reasonable and maybe even easy, but of course the marathon is a different beast. VDOT says my current equivalent marathon with a full training cycle is 3:42:01, and while I think that is total nonsense, my most ambitious goal is to not spend the next 5+ months obsessing over that.

Should be fine. Probably.

Anyway, the double your half and add 20 rule of thumb coincides nicely with the 1:49 I ran in March, so I'm definitely more prepared for sub-4 this time around.

 

[GollyGadget]

We’re all experiments of one here but I ran a 1:48 half in June last year and then barely managed a 3:57 marathon. It’s funny how close that double + 20 is

Anyway, you can totally do it. I did not have a great race. My hydration/nutrition and some leg pain slowed me down. Oh, and a potty pit stop. That sub 4 is within reach for sure!

 

[striker1064]

(mid-week update: surprise, I bought the pictures edition... rain and all!)

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

Midweek update, April 25 - April 28

Following my distaste for the Hal Higdon 5k, I began playing around with the Jack Daniels VDOT calculators and discovered they have an app called V.O2. It’s a monthly subscription of $12.99 with a 2-week trial period. It asked for recent races and assigned a VDOT based on those. Additionally, you can add future races, and the app calculates a training plan and target paces based on VDOT plus upcoming races. This, of course, is the Jack Daniels way, and his book is also well worth reading.

Anyway, it seems good enough for me. I like the Daniels plan based on reading his book plus my Princess training plan, so I’ll try out the 2-week trial and see what I think.

Monday - Easy Run - 4.5 Miles Easy (10:20 - 11:05)

• Running on a Monday morning is never easy and this was no exception. I felt tired and a little sluggish through most of the run.
  • Easy, 4.5 Mile - 9:48, 10:17, 10:43, 10:23, 10:15
• I overran the first two miles, so that probably at least marginally explains why this run felt a bit more difficult than usual.

Tuesday - Rest - Rest

• Tuesdays are my self-imposed rest day because we’ve finally returned to the office post-pandemic, and we’re beginning with one day per week, which for me is Tuesdays. I know this is a running training journal but it’s MY running training journal darn it, and returning to the office absolutely affects my training.
• I got back home Tuesday evening and collapsed on the couch. My body felt like it had run 12 miles too fast. I always knew I was a better worker from home, but this really opened my eyes. I had always hoped the pandemic would force creativity and new ways of thinking about work, and not try to shove every square peg into the same round holes, but alas, here we are. I forgot how exhausting it is to pretend to want to be around co-workers, too.

Wednesday - Threshold - 1.5 Mile Warm Up (11:48), 10 x 400 meter intervals at Threshold (8:35) with 30 second resting interval at WU pace, 1 Mile CD (11:48)

• I remember during my Princess HM training plan that Threshold workouts were the first real wakeup call for me. Most of the other workouts - long run, M Tempo, Block (progressively faster 5-, 7.5-, or 10-minute blocks of specific paces), 5k/R - were easy or tough, but none of them posed a significant challenge. The 0.5 - 1.5 mile T workouts were a serious kick in the pants, and I always struggled with them.
  • Warm Up, 1.5 Mile - 12:20, 12:06
  • 10 x 400 meters @ T (8:35)
    • 8:35, 8:31, 8:35, 8:23, 8:35, 8:31, 8:35, 8:23, 8:23, 8:15
  • Cool Down, 1 Mile - 11:26
• Look at those T intervals! I felt pretty good running this and I knew I was doing well thanks to the instant feedback from my Garmin. The V.O2 app said each interval should take 2:08, and I was hitting 2:07-2:09. I feel GREAT about this - no fade, got progressively faster at the end, and I still had 2-3 intervals in the tank.
• All that being said, my 30 second resting intervals were a good bit slower than my warm up pace - they were in the 13:00-13:40 range and even one over 14:00, so I know I was tired. But I feel good knowing I was able to recover to ROAST this run.

Thursday - Repetition - 1.5 Mile Warm Up (11:48), [400 meter intervals at Repetition (7:20) with 400 meter recovery at WU pace + 3 x 200 meter intervals at R (7:20) with 200 meter recovery at WU pace] x 2, 1 Mile Cool Down (11:48)

• Quite the mouthful workout! Much more simply it’s, 400, 200, 200, 200, 400, 200, 200, 200 R intervals. R is a difficult workout but I was always surprised at how easy these felt even tacked on to the end of an intense 5k interval session. I’m interested to see how this goes having just run a hard day yesterday, but then again R is fairly different workout than T.
  • Warm Up, 1.5 Mile - 10:59, 11:26
  • 400 meters @ R (7:20), 3 x 200 meters @ R, 400 meters @ R, 3 x 200 meters @ R
    • 7:23 (400), 7:23, 7:23, 7:06, 7:23 (400), 7:31, 7:23, 7:15
  • Cool Down, 1 Mile - 10:54
• 5 of 8 intervals right on 7:23. That’s some impressive consistency. And outside of one 200 meter rep, I got faster at the end. I’m pretty happy with this. My 400/200 meter recovery intervals were also faster than yesterday, as they all ranged from 11:40 to 12:12.

Ohhhh…

Totally not the Jack Daniels based training I thought it was going to be.

I’ll be at the MCM in Oct, albeit at a slower pace.

 

[striker1064]

Totally not the Jack Daniels based training I thought it was going to be.

I was also confused and definitely began my training for some other kind of event.

I’ll be at the MCM in Oct, albeit at a slower pace.

See you there! It'll be my first - I'm excited!

 

[nancipants]

Just wanted to chime in that I agree with you, returning to the office is dumb and I actually went and got another job where I work from home permanently.

 

[prncssjas]

The crazy thing is, sub-4 should be totally reasonable and maybe even easy, but of course the marathon is a different beast. VDOT says my current equivalent marathon with a full training cycle is 3:42:01, and while I think that is total nonsense, my most ambitious goal is to not spend the next 5+ months obsessing over that.

Agreed! You just never know what could happen during the course of 26.2 miles....but it sounds like you are there!

I always find it fascinating to see what VDOT tells us (as my Garmin race predictor thinks I am super fast, as does my running coach) but maybe it's confidence thing too....

Regardless, great job on the running!

 

[striker1064]

Instead of working today, I've spent some time plugging away at my marathon plan. One thing about the V.O2 app is it only shows you 4 weeks at a time. The app claims this is to ensure it's not calculating too far ahead and updates can be made on the fly if something goes wrong. That may be true, but it seems pretty likely to me the main reason is it's a monthly subscription, so they don't want people paying for one month and copying over a multi-month plan. That's all fine. But I did want to know approximately what I'm going to be working with in a few months, so I pulled out my Daniels Running Formula book and modeled a couple of scenarios - one with the 2Q plan at 60 miles per week, and one with the 2Q plan at 55 miles per week.

A few notes (this turned into more than a few):

• There's some confusion between the book and V.O2. The book counts the 2Q plan as including the long run on Sunday, but most of the Sunday runs are more than a simple long easy run. Most are either broken marathon intervals, threshold intervals, or some combination thereof. V.O2 allows you the option of 0, 1, or 2 quality days per week. I'm going with 1Q in the settings, but for my spring training I still got pretty much the same thing as the book. And now I'm curious what 2Q looks like in V.O2...
• In the name of all that is holy, I may be a tad presumptuous thinking I can handle 60 mpw. That plan starts off with a bang, with 7h 30min in the first week and peaking at 9h 21min. I probably won't do this.
• I know Daniels says you should run 6 or 7 days per week in marathon training, but he weighs the quality days very heavily. If I did 6-7 days per week, I'd spend most of the time running only 2-5 miles and that's it. That doesn't seem particularly productive.
• I always thought most marathon training plans built from a lower base. Not Daniels. Every single week is either 80%, 90%, or 100% of peak mileage for 18 weeks.
• The 55 mpw plan looks tough, but more manageable than 60 mpw. 55 mpw starts at 6h 46min in week 1 and peaks at 8h 50 min (rather early, I might add).
• I continue to be annoyed that most of these plans (not just from Daniels) are written for particularly fast runners. Daniels has a frequent long run that's something like "the lessor of 16 miles at easy pace or 120 minutes." You'll note 16 miles in 120 minutes is a 7:30/mile pace. That's the easy pace of an approximately 2:45 marathoner. I'll be lucky to ever hit 3:45.
• That also means my long runs will be capped significantly shorter than the mileage he recommends in the book. At my easy pace, I'll top out at about 15.5-16 miles in 150 minutes. I did that with my last plan. I totally understand the concept of accumulated fatigue. But I've also read that some runners do better spending more time on feet in training to get used to the distance. I think I'd like to try that this time. If I go solely by his recommended mileage and not time from the book, my long runs would be 2:29, 2:39, and 2:49. Even the M-tempo runs would top out around 2:30.
• I attached a screen clip of my spreadsheet for funsies (using Imgur because DIS was compressing it badly and I couldn't figure out why, but at least you can enlarge with Imgur). It's ugly, deal with it. I make my spreadsheets functional first and deal with ease of reading later. Why yes, my co-workers do love me, why do you ask?

https://imgur.com/wHqboho

 

[WillRunForPizza]

My eyes always glaze over a little when I look at Daniels's notations - I have not at all internalized what R and I and T all mean I get there eventually but I feel like he makes things more esoteric than they need to be.

Anyway, on weekly mileage, I topped out at around 48 miles training for the marathon in January, and I plan to aim for low to mid-50s for my next training cycle peak. 60 is a lot! Tentatively I'll also have some weeks in the 30-35 mile range to give my body a break. YMMV, literally lol

 

[striker1064]

Daniels makes a lot more sense once you run the paces a few times and get a feel for them.

• T is threshold, aka lactate threshold. This is an important one! I think most coaches use something very similar if not the same.
• R is how he denotes 1-mile pace (for some reason).
• I is similar in training load to T, except it makes you hate yourself. It works the same as CV (critical velocity) but it's a little faster I think, and Daniels doesn't use CV.

I also topped out at 48 last year! I think I'd just like to try more mileage and see what happens. 60 is clearly too much though. 55 looks doable but I am concerned about the lack of cut-back weeks, although the app may have more of that too.

This exercise made me want to sketch out Hansons and Fitz 18/55. I'll do those tomorrow during work.

 

[striker1064]

Oh, one other thing I'm learning as I'm digging is I need to eat more - possibly a lot more. This is a hard one for me because I've struggled with my weight my entire life, and I'm still not thrilled with it currently. But also I probably never will be, and weight loss is not really compatible with distance running because your body needs the nutrients.

Maybe I'll start with a lot more fruit and see how that goes.

 

[azrivest]

I continue to be annoyed that most of these plans (not just from Daniels) are written for particularly fast runners. Daniels has a frequent long run that's something like "the lessor of 16 miles at easy pace or 120 minutes." You'll note 16 miles in 120 minutes is a 7:30/mile pace. That's the easy pace of an approximately 2:45 marathoner. I'll be lucky to ever hit 3:45.

This is why I never caught on after reading his book. It did not feel built for middle-of-the-pack runners like me. It felt just overwhelming to attempt. But you results are great proof that it works in the end

 

[DopeyBadger]

I continue to be annoyed that most of these plans (not just from Daniels) are written for particularly fast runners. Daniels has a frequent long run that's something like "the lessor of 16 miles at easy pace or 120 minutes." You'll note 16 miles in 120 minutes is a 7:30/mile pace. That's the easy pace of an approximately 2:45 marathoner. I'll be lucky to ever hit 3:45.

What edition of his book do you have? My 3rd edition 2Q plan page has several >120 min runs in the 40 mpw, 41-55 mpw, and 56-70 mpw plans. Pages 219-224.

My 56-70 plan as the dictations of "17 miles or 120 min". That would be 7:04 easy/LR pace which would be a 2:48 runner. It also has a 20 miles or 150 min (7:30 pace) which would be a 2:58 runner. Since he follows a duration*effort methodology, he doesn't want you to train for too long to hit a certain mileage. So stopping at 150 min doesn't mean a mid-level runner can't use his plans. Instead, you're doing the same training as the high end runner since you're both doing the same duration at the same effort level. If you decide to cap at 55 miles, then a 30% long run would be 16.5 miles max.

That also means my long runs will be capped significantly shorter than the mileage he recommends in the book. At my easy pace, I'll top out at about 15.5-16 miles in 150 minutes. I did that with my last plan. I totally understand the concept of accumulated fatigue. But I've also read that some runners do better spending more time on feet in training to get used to the distance. I think I'd like to try that this time. If I go solely by his recommended mileage and not time from the book, my long runs would be 2:29, 2:39, and 2:49. Even the M-tempo runs would top out around 2:30.

If you want to do a longer distance run, consider pulling back on the pace of the run to compensate. But page 51 of the 3rd edition talks about this directly,

"When you consider that the top runners do go for some 20-mile runs and longer, you must realize that they accomplish these runs in about 2-2.5 hrs, and that is the main reason I think 2.5 hours is long enough, even if it gets a runner a total of only 15 miles [10 min/mile pace]".

Where 10 min/mile easy/LR pace is the easy/LR pace of a 4 hr marathon runner.

There's some confusion between the book and V.O2.

And that confusion exists in the first few chapters of the book vs the pre-written suggested plans in the back of the book. There are inconsistencies as the plans written at the back of the book break some of the guidances laid out earlier. Just a quick example is page 236 of the 3rd edition which has a "60 min E + 4 x 3 T w/ 3 min rests + 1 E" in the 3 weeks until race day. That's a total of 12 miles of T in a 56-70 mile per week plan during an 80% volume week. However, page 48 and 54 both state that T should not exceed 10% of the weekly mileage in a single workout. The only way 12 miles of T doesn't exceed 10% is if it came in a 120 mile week. Not a 56-70 mile plan at 80% volume week. There's a lot of these inconsistencies pointed out in LetsRun threads about the Daniels book. In the past, I would do the volume of the 56-70 plan, but the workouts of the 41-55 plan because that seemed to come closer to jiving with the guidelines.

 

[striker1064]

I have the 4th edition of the book.

And that confusion exists in the first few chapters of the book vs the pre-written suggested plans in the back of the book.

Yes, I definitely remember this from the last time I read the book, and I noticed it as I was sketching out the plan. My guess is V.O2 is up-to-date and won't find those inconsistencies. The T running in particular stood way out to me as I wrote out the plan - that is a lot of T running. Similar to what you mentioned but even worse, the week right before race week is 8 miles of T in a 90% week, which for a 55 mpw plan is just over 16% of the total mileage for the week. Right before race week! 3 weeks out is 14%. I definitely did a lot of T running this spring for the RnR HM, but not that much.

Thank you for the note about the LetsRun forum. I knew there was a place that had the plan inconsistencies listed out but I couldn't remember what it was. I plan to re-read the book sometime soon and make notes on my plan, and compare it to what I find.

If you want to do a longer distance run, consider pulling back on the pace of the run to compensate. But page 51 of the 3rd edition talks about this directly,

Thanks - I knew this but also totally forgot about it. I need to re-read the book. The other part is I'm having a hard time squaring the maximum distance in the plan. I know you don't need a 20-mile run to successfully run a marathon. Daniels, Hanson, and many others stress this. The part I'm struggling with is blowing up at mile 18 during my full last year. I'm trying hard to remind myself of how much was going on at that time and my blowup very likely had nothing to do with what was all-in-all a successful training cycle.

In the past, I would do the volume of the 56-70 plan, but the workouts of the 41-55 plan because that seemed to come closer to jiving with the guidelines.

Oh this is a GREAT idea - thank you! I'm gonna see what this looks like.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts!