This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

[mummabear]

Probably. I carried mine up and down stairs...at the same time...many times. You just learn to deal as a twin mom. But, I also understand how/why it is "more dangerous" than one at a time. Taking them both out as toddlers to the park or wherever was also "more dangerous" than trying to watch one. It's a balancing act for sure. We had many "close calls" because of "twin behavior" as I call it. One was when DH was watching them both as they were playing in the living room. The phone rang (hard wired phone) and he turned his back for the 30-45 seconds it took to reach the phone in the next room. He turned as he answered and saw my DD walking around on the TOP of the upright piano. We had marble floors. Scary as all heck. Near as we can figure, DD used DS to 'climb' up to the keyboard, and from there she scrambled to the top in the blink of an eye. Would DH have been a "terrible" parent if she had fallen and injured herself? If you say yes, are you also going to tell me you've never turned your back for 30-45 seconds or stepped into the next room while you were a parent? If so, I'm calling you a liar or forgetful. It's HUMAN!

I should also add that by this time, we already had ALL the dining room chairs ON TOP of the dining room table because DD was such a climber. But, we had failed to consider she might use her brother as a step stool. LOL.

I agree, it is human to make errors, and sometimes it is only in hindsight that we realise how luck we are.
I for one have said before about the boy taken by the alligator that our toddler had played there in very similar circumstances more than once.
We knew the no swimming, but no swimming g and no paddling are two very different things here.
Given that there used to be swimming in that water, that they take kids out on pirate adventures on that water, and hold movie nights on those beaches, plus the fact that there was no warning signs about alligators lead us to believe it was due to boat traffic no wildlife dangers.
And there are any number of us that have had a toddler work out how to u click a seatbelts or move a chair and climb over a fence etc that are lucky it hasnt ended tragically.
BUT there are some circumstances where the decisions seem so negligent that we can feel comfortable we souldnt have made that choice.

I equate thus to the terrible day that little boy was nabbed by the gator at GF. Avoidable? Sure. Could it happen to any well meaning family? Yes.

Hindsight.

See above, the alligator accident isnt even comparible.

Wow, really? Must be a wonderful thing to be so absolutely perfect and able to look down at the rest of the world. Might want to be careful though, long fall from that high horse.

Wow, insensitive choice of words for the thread....(either that or I admittedly have a dark sense of humor)

 

[luvsJack]

I agree, it is human to make errors, and sometimes it is only in hindsight that we realise how luck we are.
I for one have said before about the boy taken by the alligator that our toddler had played there in very similar circumstances more than once.
We knew the no swimming, but no swimming g and no paddling are two very different things here.
Given that there used to be swimming in that water, that they take kids out on pirate adventures on that water, and hold movie nights on those beaches, plus the fact that there was no warning signs about alligators lead us to believe it was due to boat traffic no wildlife dangers.
And there are any number of us that have had a toddler work out how to u click a seatbelts or move a chair and climb over a fence etc that are lucky it hasnt ended tragically.
BUT there are some circumstances where the decisions seem so negligent that we can feel comfortable we souldnt have made that choice.



See above, the alligator accident isnt even comparible.


Wow, insensitive choice of words for the thread....(either that or I admittedly have a dark sense of humor)

Fixed it.


Does anyone here remember the little girl this same age that fell in the well back in 1987? I was reading a post on fb about that. Remember how the whole nation was watching and rejoiced in her rescue? Remember how people DIDN’T act like the parents were the root of all evil and didn’t neglect their child? I don’t remember anyone even questioning why the child was where she was or got into the well. Now, fortunately, it turned out well for that child but it could have ended in tragedy as well. Fast forward to the little boy attacked by the alligator at Disney and this child and the automatic response is to accuse and blame and justify how it could never happen to us. Not even here on the dis necessarily but on FB news articles it’s awful! Bad things happen to good people. It just does.

Why can’t we get back to being a society that rallies around the good people that bad things happen to and offer support and sympathy and empathy to them instead of accusations and blame and heaping on the guilt?

Is social media the difference or are people different? My fear is that it’s both.

 

[mjkacmom]

I agree, it is human to make errors, and sometimes it is only in hindsight that we realise how luck we are.
I for one have said before about the boy taken by the alligator that our toddler had played there in very similar circumstances more than once.
We knew the no swimming, but no swimming g and no paddling are two very different things here.
Given that there used to be swimming in that water, that they take kids out on pirate adventures on that water, and hold movie nights on those beaches, plus the fact that there was no warning signs about alligators lead us to believe it was due to boat traffic no wildlife dangers.
And there are any number of us that have had a toddler work out how to u click a seatbelts or move a chair and climb over a fence etc that are lucky it hasnt ended tragically.
BUT there are some circumstances where the decisions seem so negligent that we can feel comfortable we souldnt have made that choice.



See above, the alligator accident isnt even comparible.


Wow, insensitive choice of words for the thread....(either that or I admittedly have a dark sense of humor)

You say not comparable, but there were many here on the DIS who flamed that dad for letting his son stand in the water, and blamed him for his son’s death. It seems like you are doing the same to someone else.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Does anyone here remember the little girl this same age that fell in the well back in 1987?...

Why can’t we get back to being a society that rallies around the good people that bad things happen to and offer support and sympathy and empathy to them instead of accusations and blame and heaping on the guilt?

Is social media the difference or are people different?...

I do remember that - baby Jessica, right? And I believe the difference is normalcy. - Back then, people still likely knew someone personally who had been affected by a childhood tragedy. They saw it as a random thing that unfortunately happened to people just like them.

Nowadays, we have improved child health and safety so much that we have a false sense of how much control we actually have. People are less likely to know someone who has lost a child, and more likely to feel they can fully protect themselves from such a tragedy.

 

[luvsJack]

I do remember that - baby Jessica, right? And I believe the difference is normalcy. - Back then, people still likely knew someone personally who had been affected by a childhood tragedy. They saw it as a random thing that unfortunately happened to people just like them.

Nowadays, we have improved child health and safety so much that we have a false sense of how much control we actually have. People are less likely to know someone who has lost a child, and more likely to feel they can fully protect themselves from such a tragedy.

And I think that is a very false sense of security. We can never fully protect ourselves from anything.

I have a friend that lost her college age daughter in a car accident several years ago. This friend and her sister were very close until this accident. For reasons that most of us don’t know, this sister blamed my friend for the death of her own daughter (the daughter was alone in the car in the accident). There has been such a split between the two of them that if one sees that someone is friends with both of them on fb, one or both will unfriend the person. They haven’t spoken since the girl’s funeral. I can’t help but wonder if she blamed her sister as a way of protecting her feeling that it could happen to her own child. And that is what I think so many people do. If we find a way to place blame, we can be assured that it will never happen to us.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I do remember that - baby Jessica, right? And I believe the difference is normalcy. - Back then, people still likely knew someone personally who had been affected by a childhood tragedy. They saw it as a random thing that unfortunately happened to people just like them.

Nowadays, we have improved child health and safety so much that we have a false sense of how much control we actually have. People are less likely to know someone who has lost a child, and more likely to feel they can fully protect themselves from such a tragedy.

I think that could be part of it. False security, like the other poster mentioned absolutely, but in some cases we've become so used to other things doing things for us, looking out for us that we become complacent in some aspects of our lives.

Not directly related to this exact situation the thread is about but one thing I've absolutely noticed is that backup cameras for all that they are good in blind spots and whatnot people's behavior tends to shift to not actually using their driving training and turning their heads to look behind and to the sides of them. Many rely solely on the backup camera and I tend to see drivers backing out way too fast and recklessly. Backup cameras often don't catch the cars coming from farther away especially if the camera doesn't swivel and move as the car's direction moves. And part of me is concerned about getting a car with a backup camera because I don't want to become like that either.

On the other hand I'm really all for technology helping us remember children and pets in the backseat of a car. I know we can do simple things like putting our purse back there or something else that we will need for our day but it's one area that I would agree on pushing for improved awareness via technology. Not that it didn't happen before but I also think our lives have become where people are distracted if you will more than we might have been previously. It's why I'm not always on the 'blame game' when it comes to a child or pet dying and why I understand it's not a situation where police always charge the person with a crime (though pets don't have nearly the same legal protection as humans). Sometimes it's truly an honest, though absolutely terrible mistake, and sometimes it's something more negligent.

 

[elle21]

Fixed it.


Does anyone here remember the little girl this same age that fell in the well back in 1987? I was reading a post on fb about that. Remember how the whole nation was watching and rejoiced in her rescue? Remember how people DIDN’T act like the parents were the root of all evil and didn’t neglect their child? I don’t remember anyone even questioning why the child was where she was or got into the well. Now, fortunately, it turned out well for that child but it could have ended in tragedy as well. Fast forward to the little boy attacked by the alligator at Disney and this child and the automatic response is to accuse and blame and justify how it could never happen to us. Not even here on the dis necessarily but on FB news articles it’s awful! Bad things happen to good people. It just does.

Why can’t we get back to being a society that rallies around the good people that bad things happen to and offer support and sympathy and empathy to them instead of accusations and blame and heaping on the guilt?

Is social media the difference or are people different? My fear is that it’s both.

I think there are great differences in these tragedies. And I know personally that hearing that this family is trying to sue the cruise line changes how I feel toward them. I think it was a tragic and awful mistake the grandpa made. He actively did something that put his grandchild in danger. And the danger came. If I actively unbuckle my child on a ride and they become injured it’s my fault. If I stick my hand out on pirates of the Caribbean and my fingers get cut off it’s my fault. If I lift my child up on an 11 story railing and they fall over the edge, it’s my fault.
in the alligator situation, the parents let their child do something that millions of people had been doing at Disney since it opened. Walking along the sandy beach and putting your feet in the water of the lagoon. The toddler was not in deep water. Heck when I was a kid I distinctly remember how you could rent boats and go sailing out in the lagoon. And there was a picture of Goofy water skiing in the lagoon. Not sure if guests were able to water ski at any point. I guess what I’m saying is that Disney seemed to advertise and perpetuate the idea that the big lagoon was safe to be near and/ or in. It was a freak accident. But I’m glad they put signs up, and rocks/ ropes to block people from going near the water now.
However I can’t think of anyone in the world who wouldn’t recognize the danger of putting a baby on a high railing and letting go. It seems like a common, universal danger. And I don’t think that cruise lines should no longer have windows or balconies or railings overlooking the ocean because of this tragedy, which in my opinion falls solely on the grandpa. I do feel terrible for him.

 

[luvsJack]

I think there are great differences in these tragedies. And I know personally that hearing that this family is trying to sue the cruise line changes how I feel toward them. I think it was a tragic and awful mistake the grandpa made. He actively did something that put his grandchild in danger. And the danger came. If I actively unbuckle my child on a ride and they become injured it’s my fault. If I stick my hand out on pirates of the Caribbean and my fingers get cut off it’s my fault. If I lift my child up on an 11 story railing and they fall over the edge, it’s my fault.
in the alligator situation, the parents let their child do something that millions of people had been doing at Disney since it opened. Walking along the sandy beach and putting your feet in the water of the lagoon. The toddler was not in deep water. Heck when I was a kid I distinctly remember how you could rent boats and go sailing out in the lagoon. And there was a picture of Goofy water skiing in the lagoon. Not sure if guests were able to water ski at any point. I guess what I’m saying is that Disney seemed to advertise and perpetuate the idea that the big lagoon was safe to be near and/ or in. It was a freak accident. But I’m glad they put signs up, and rocks/ ropes to block people from going near the water now.
However I can’t think of anyone in the world who wouldn’t recognize the danger of putting a baby on a high railing and letting go. It seems like a common, universal danger. And I don’t think that cruise lines should no longer have windows or balconies or railings overlooking the ocean because of this tragedy, which in my opinion falls solely on the grandpa. I do feel terrible for him.

Baby Jessica was an 18 month old in her own yard, unsupervised. Do you not think it possible they knew the well was there? My point was that blame to the parents was just not something that was done and I don’t think it should have been with the little boy at Disney and not with this family. Sympathy, condolences, support, yes. But blame, no.

People sue big companies all the time. But understand this, attorneys like the one with this family some how manage to contact people during a time when they are distraught, confused and searching for answers. They come along and manage to help the family “see the answers”. So the family searching feels a small bit of comfort in that answer and a law suit either materializes or at some point goes away.

We experienced this with our nephew. After his accident which took 3 lives, an attorney contacted mil. He went on and on about possible seat belts and air bags malfunctioning and how they need to sue the car manufacturer and others for nephew’s death. The fact was that the three people in the car were intoxicated and hit a tree. She wanted answers that explained the wreck in some way that made it not nephew’s fault and the vulture provided that or almost did.

 

[mom2rtk]

Baby Jessica was an 18 month old in her own yard, unsupervised. Do you not think it possible they knew the well was there? My point was that blame to the parents was just not something that was done and I don’t think it should have been with the little boy at Disney and not with this family. Sympathy, condolences, support, yes. But blame, no.

People sue big companies all the time. But understand this, attorneys like the one with this family some how manage to contact people during a time when they are distraught, confused and searching for answers. They come along and manage to help the family “see the answers”. So the family searching feels a small bit of comfort in that answer and a law suit either materializes or at some point goes away.

We experienced this with our nephew. After his accident which took 3 lives, an attorney contacted mil. He went on and on about possible seat belts and air bags malfunctioning and how they need to sue the car manufacturer and others for nephew’s death. The fact was that the three people in the car were intoxicated and hit a tree. She wanted answers that explained the wreck in some way that made it not nephew’s fault and the vulture provided that or almost did.

Baby Jessica also didn't die. People were holding their breaths waiting for an outcome. I think that changes the thought process.

 

[wgeo]

Baby Jessica also didn't die. People were holding their breaths waiting for an outcome. I think that changes the thought process.

I'm also - guessing here - that many many people did judge the parents, and probably judged them harshly. However, there wasn't the ability to express that judgment online like there is today. I'm not quite sure that people have really changed, its just that newer technologies are allowing people to be more vocal about things they've always thought and only be used to share with their family/neighbors.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I'm also - guessing here - that many many people did judge the parents, and probably judged them harshly. However, there wasn't the ability to express that judgment online like there is today. I'm not quite sure that people have really changed, its just that newer technologies are allowing people to be more vocal about things they've always thought and only be used to share with their family/neighbors.

I agree and I think also there are just some things people know/knew not to bring up in company or at least certain company.

The internet...well that becomes sorta different.

 

[msjprincess]

I'm also - guessing here - that many many people did judge the parents, and probably judged them harshly. However, there wasn't the ability to express that judgment online like there is today. I'm not quite sure that people have really changed, its just that newer technologies are allowing people to be more vocal about things they've always thought and only be used to share with their family/neighbors.

They did. It happened at the aunt's house. The mother and aunt were both investigated for negligent supervision.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Baby Jessica was an 18 month old in her own yard, unsupervised. Do you not think it possible they knew the well was there? My point was that blame to the parents was just not something that was done and I don’t think it should have been with the little boy at Disney and not with this family. Sympathy, condolences, support, yes. But blame, no.

People sue big companies all the time. But understand this, attorneys like the one with this family some how manage to contact people during a time when they are distraught, confused and searching for answers. They come along and manage to help the family “see the answers”. So the family searching feels a small bit of comfort in that answer and a law suit either materializes or at some point goes away.

We experienced this with our nephew. After his accident which took 3 lives, an attorney contacted mil. He went on and on about possible seat belts and air bags malfunctioning and how they need to sue the car manufacturer and others for nephew’s death. The fact was that the three people in the car were intoxicated and hit a tree. She wanted answers that explained the wreck in some way that made it not nephew’s fault and the vulture provided that or almost did.

Yes I agree shady lawyers out to make a buck exist often enough. At the same time to an extent I think some things are because our knowledge has grown. For instance with the Takata airbags..I mean holy cow who knew that it was so prevelant and wide-spread? I sure didn't. Things like that make us second guess the circumstances. It can still be the fault of a person(s) and yet have other contributing factors as well. The downside is when you go too far and make it so everything has contributing factors outside one's control because you look for something that may not be there every time.

I'm not for immediately suing but nor do I think it's always a bad thing. In this situation with the grandfather..I don't see much positive outcome from a lawsuit due to the circumstances but that's just me.

 

[lifesavacation]

The grandfather was reportedly rocking her until she fell from his arms. https://translate.google.com/transl...cle_8cd72b2c-a400-11e9-ba69-efe1b0e315b8.html

The grandfather reportedly would not give a witness statement. The same article says the parents were offered to view the cruise video in private but they weren't ready to do that. I don't blame them. I'd never want to watch it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...falling-arms-cruise-ship-arrives-Chicago.html

 

[Allison]

I'm also - guessing here - that many many people did judge the parents, and probably judged them harshly. However, there wasn't the ability to express that judgment online like there is today. I'm not quite sure that people have really changed, its just that newer technologies are allowing people to be more vocal about things they've always thought and only be used to share with their family/neighbors.

I agree and I think also there are just some things people know/knew not to bring up in company or at least certain company.

The internet...well that becomes sorta different.

I agree. I don't think peple have changed all that much. The mob mentality is just much easier to come about in this age of technology.

 

[DLgal]

No statement? That's odd.

 

[indimom]

So, another version... he was rocking the child to sleep. Could he have propped his arms, holding the near-sleeping child on the rail at the open window? I know I've done that when I was holding a heavy child for a length of time... used a rail or windowsill or edge of a table or whatever to support my arms.
And if you thought the child was nearly asleep, you might not have a tight grip on the child?
And then the child woke, rolled over, or whatever when he wasn't expecting it?

 

[DLgal]

The grandfather was reportedly rocking her until she fell from his arms. https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=https://www.elvocero.com/ley-y-orden/reiteran-que-investigan-m-ltiples-ngulos-por-muerte-de-ni/article_8cd72b2c-a400-11e9-ba69-efe1b0e315b8.html

The grandfather reportedly would not give a witness statement. The same article says the parents were offered to view the cruise video in private but they weren't ready to do that. I don't blame them. I'd never want to watch it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...falling-arms-cruise-ship-arrives-Chicago.html

Interestingly, in the original Spanish article, the word translated to "rocking" also means "swinging."

If the video shows the GF swinging the toddler near the open window, well....

 

[ronandannette]

The grandfather was reportedly rocking her until she fell from his arms. https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=https://www.elvocero.com/ley-y-orden/reiteran-que-investigan-m-ltiples-ngulos-por-muerte-de-ni/article_8cd72b2c-a400-11e9-ba69-efe1b0e315b8.html

The grandfather reportedly would not give a witness statement. The same article says the parents were offered to view the cruise video in private but they weren't ready to do that. I don't blame them. I'd never want to watch it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...falling-arms-cruise-ship-arrives-Chicago.html

I've snipped this picture from your second link. I'm startled by how similar the open window and the closed window appear from the inside. The pictures I've previously seen were shot from the ship's exterior and it was obvious which window was open. From this perspective, not near so much.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I've snipped this picture from your second link. I'm startled by how similar the open window and the closed window appear from the inside. The pictures I've previously seen were shot from the ship's exterior and it was obvious which window was open. From this perspective, not near so much.
View attachment 416833

Looking at this pic, I would have thought the middle one was open, as there are reflections on both the far right and far left panes.