This is just so sad,,and makes me ask WHY would someone do this?? I don't call it 'playing'??

Update:

Grandfather charged in death of granddaughter who fell from cruise ship

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grandf...and-cruise-ship-death-puerto-rico-2019-10-28/

Thank you for the update.

Anyone who has read this thread knows I do not place any blame on the cruise ship. I have been on that exact ship, and like PP's just reiterated it is NOT in a child's play area, it is on the pool deck. Furthermore, the tint on the windows makes it obviously clear which ones are opened vs. closed.

With all that said . . .

I do think the grandfather is to blame, but I truly believe it was a horrific accident. The pain he has and will continue to endure is punishment enough. I am so sad that this family (although I disagree 100% on placing blame on RCCL, and lawsuit) have been through pure hell, and I didn't want to see this happen.
 
:( Wow, I didn't see that coming. I wonder what evidence there is that would substantiate such a serious charge as well as such a large bond? This is just more grief and pain for an already tortured family and I'm just so sorry for everyone involved. I suppose though that this somewhat settles the unfair blame that was originally aimed at the cruiseline.

Thank you for the update.

Anyone who has read this thread knows I do not place any blame on the cruise ship. I have been on that exact ship, and like PP's just reiterated it is NOT in a child's play area, it is on the pool deck. Furthermore, the tint on the windows makes it obviously clear which ones are opened vs. closed.

With all that said . . .

I do think the grandfather is to blame, but I truly believe it was a horrific accident. The pain he has and will continue to endure is punishment enough. I am so sad that this family (although I disagree 100% on placing blame on RCCL, and lawsuit) have been through pure hell, and I didn't want to see this happen.


Removing emotion (I know they are in deep pain they may never heal from) ...

I'm not surprised. This may be the lowest charge available to them given the circumstances.

Maybe if there had been some acknowledgement by him or the family that he made a really bad choice ........... rather than full blown TV circuit, blaming RCI, claiming it was a child's play area, filing lawsuits etc ..... the police may have said they know it was an accident and a bad choice that resulted in their family's loss. But at what point do you say you have to uphold the law and go forward with charges ... or what precedent will be set? I honestly don't think in the end he will do jail time, but I think they have to go through the process because there was no acknowledgement of responsibility for a life lost. Someone is responsible and it wasn't RCI's fault. And RCI is a huge economic boom to PR. Following the law will put responsibility where it lies, but hopefully whatever punishment comes is humane.

Now the only thing we haven't been privy to is I believe afterwards they said there were cameras on the ship and potentially on the dock. Perhaps they saw something we don't know about. Perhaps he did dangle her outside the frame of the window. We just don't know but I doubt they'd move forward without confidence in their case. PR needs no negative energy when they depend on tourists.
 
Removing emotion (I know they are in deep pain they may never heal from) ...

I'm not surprised. This may be the lowest charge available to them given the circumstances.

Maybe if there had been some acknowledgement by him or the family that he made a really bad choice ........... rather than full blown TV circuit, blaming RCI, claiming it was a child's play area, filing lawsuits etc ..... the police may have said they know it was an accident and a bad choice that resulted in their family's loss. But at what point do you say you have to uphold the law and go forward with charges ... or what precedent will be set? I honestly don't think in the end he will do jail time, but I think they have to go through the process because there was no acknowledgement of responsibility for a life lost. Someone is responsible and it wasn't RCI's fault. And RCI is a huge economic boom to PR. Following the law will put responsibility where it lies, but hopefully whatever punishment comes is humane.

Now the only thing we haven't been privy to is I believe afterwards they said there were cameras on the ship and potentially on the dock. Perhaps they saw something we don't know about. Perhaps he did dangle her outside the frame of the window. We just don't know but I doubt they'd move forward without confidence in their case. PR needs no negative energy when they depend on tourists.

I agree with you on the parents. I was not a fan of the whole Today Show interview. However, I think it was highly likely that their lawyer was the catalyst behind that stunt. The fact that you haven't heard from them since could tell you that maybe after the numbness wore off, they knew it wasn't a smart move and decided to lay low. No doubt, they were not in a right state of mind when they went on the Today Show.

Although who knows if the grandfather did put responsibility on himself during police interviews. :confused3 My guess is the tapes were the smoking gun to why they filed these charges. (and for the family, I still hope they refuse to watch them as it won't do anything but add more trauma.) I hope you are correct, and he won't see time. He is living his punishment, putting him behind bars isn't going to do a damn thing except cost tax payers money.
 
Removing emotion (I know they are in deep pain they may never heal from) ...

I'm not surprised. This may be the lowest charge available to them given the circumstances.

Maybe if there had been some acknowledgement by him or the family that he made a really bad choice ........... rather than full blown TV circuit, blaming RCI, claiming it was a child's play area, filing lawsuits etc ..... the police may have said they know it was an accident and a bad choice that resulted in their family's loss. But at what point do you say you have to uphold the law and go forward with charges ... or what precedent will be set? I honestly don't think in the end he will do jail time, but I think they have to go through the process because there was no acknowledgement of responsibility for a life lost. Someone is responsible and it wasn't RCI's fault. And RCI is a huge economic boom to PR. Following the law will put responsibility where it lies, but hopefully whatever punishment comes is humane.

Now the only thing we haven't been privy to is I believe afterwards they said there were cameras on the ship and potentially on the dock. Perhaps they saw something we don't know about. Perhaps he did dangle her outside the frame of the window. We just don't know but I doubt they'd move forward without confidence in their case. PR needs no negative energy when they depend on tourists.
Oh sweet Jesus, I forgot about the part where he was reported to have dangled her. :scared: I truly hope that wasn't the case. Regardless, this was never, ever RCCL's fault. I agree wholeheartedly the parents should never have given all those interviews and that the media never should have run with it.
 


Yeah it's too bad they chose to repeat that. My guess is that there is no other information released other than charged, arrested, bail and court date. That is pretty much a one line story so they repeated the past info. POOR journalism.
In fairness to the reporter, both Winkelman's quote and the video are from July.
 
From the most recent articles I’ve read, one account against the grandfather says he lifted her up then lost his own balance, causing her to fall. But in all accounts I’ve read, him not realizing there was an open window there seems to be to common denominator. I can see where the negligent homicide charge comes in - if you’re aloof and unaware of your surroundings and don’t realize there’s something as noticeable as an open window, and someone dies as a result of that oversight, that’s what this charge is for.

That said, I think it was a horrific accident, and I don’t know if I necessarily agree with the charges. Just that I can see why it was done.
 
It seems there are conflicting accounts as to how this happened. The security footage would show how this happened. It’s just a sad tragedy. I don’t know how I feel about the grandfather being charged. But I don’t know who that is up to
 


How unfortunate. I do believe the man was negligent and his actions were reckless, but he has suffered an immense loss. If he is convicted, I hope the judge will be merciful with his sentence.
 
https://abcnews.go.com/US/grandfath...h-granddaughter-fell-cruise/story?id=66598409
This article left a really bad taste in my mouth. Between the attorney's statement which ultimately boils down to: I don't like these charges because they are inconvenient to my narrative and damage my case against RC, and the statement from the South Bend police organization calling the cruise line negligent. The point is that there is sufficient evidence that the grandfather "negligently exposed [his granddaughter] through one of the windows." per the PR DOJ and that he is a proximate cause in her death.

The lawyer also slightly mischaracterized the charge, as it is a misdemeanor, specifically punishable as a felony. You know the reason they did the full court PR press immediately is that they suspected this would happen and were trying to negotiate a settlement before that. It's the only strategy they had really. And the criminal trial should be over long before the civil proceeding even gets started. And even if he is not convicted, it may not hurt RC's defense that much. If the prosecutor can't meet the beyond a reasonable doubt standard, it doesn't mean that RC can't win on what the preponderance of the evidence shows.
 
That footage must tell the story for the judge to charge him. Yes, he has paid dearly already, but if was negligent, he will have to pay for that in the system of the law.

His attorney and the story he made up, must have not been what's on the video footage.
Some attorneys are very good story tellers.
 
It's appropriate to make a decision on whether or not to prosecute on the basis of what members of the family did in the aftermath re: television interviews and civil litigation? The person being charged with the crime has no part in either of those. I wouldn't want anyone deciding whether or not to charge me with a crime based on the actions of other people.

The same TV interview (that grandpa didn't participate in) that is being referenced above as a reasonable consideration in the decision to charge him very clearly includes references of statements allegedly made by the grandfather repeatedly blaming himself. If grandpa himself had gone on TV sobbing and blaming himself on camera would that be enough of a demonstration of remorse to negate the need to prosecute him? IMO the hardest people for grandpa to face and express remorse to have got to be the parents.

Prosecution and sentencing for crimes is supposed to achieve various aims for the good of society along with justice. Does grandpa need official discipline or punishment? I doubt this man will ever have another peaceful moment in his life purely on the basis of living with his own thoughts. Will convicting and punishing grandpa deter anyone from doing the same thing he did? What is the desired outcome to make the decision to prosecute in this case?

Whether the parents blame RCI and have filed lawsuits should have no place in the consideration of filing criminal charges against the grandfather, but it makes sense that there is incentive to do so. Cruise ships docking in Puerto Rico and the revenue the passengers bring to the economy are something officials have an incentive to maintain. The fact this criminal prosecution severely hampers, if not undercuts the civil litigation isn't insignificant
 
It's appropriate to make a decision on whether or not to prosecute on the basis of what members of the family did in the aftermath re: television interviews and civil litigation? The person being charged with the crime has no part in either of those. I wouldn't want anyone deciding whether or not to charge me with a crime based on the actions of other people.

The same TV interview (that grandpa didn't participate in) that is being referenced above as a reasonable consideration in the decision to charge him very clearly includes references of statements allegedly made by the grandfather repeatedly blaming himself. If grandpa himself had gone on TV sobbing and blaming himself on camera would that be enough of a demonstration of remorse to negate the need to prosecute him? IMO the hardest people for grandpa to face and express remorse to have got to be the parents.

Prosecution and sentencing for crimes is supposed to achieve various aims for the good of society along with justice. Does grandpa need official discipline or punishment? I doubt this man will ever have another peaceful moment in his life purely on the basis of living with his own thoughts. Will convicting and punishing grandpa deter anyone from doing the same thing he did? What is the desired outcome to make the decision to prosecute in this case?

Whether the parents blame RCI and have filed lawsuits should have no place in the consideration of filing criminal charges against the grandfather, but it makes sense that there is incentive to do so. Cruise ships docking in Puerto Rico and the revenue the passengers bring to the economy are something officials have an incentive to maintain. The fact this criminal prosecution severely hampers, if not undercuts the civil litigation isn't insignificant
I agree that the family interview or lawsuit should not have impacted the decision to prosecute the grandfather. I don't see the family interview as a reason to prosecute the grandfather, I see it more that fear of prosecution was the reason behind the incredibly quick interview. I suppose the reasoning behind so quickly going for an interview could have been to educate the general public, but I mean, really, is there an epidemic of babies falling off of cruise ships? (That is what the family stated.) The next reasoning would be to get support behind the idea that it is RCI's fault so that grandfather isn't charged. The next reasoning would be to get support behind the idea that it is RCI's fault to squeeze a quick, large settlement out of RCI.

I did think about the fact that Puerto Rico would have an interest in helping RCI. However, in these accidental deaths of children that an adult may have contributed to, you really see varying responses by the justice system even when these outside factors aren't present (I think of a Reader's Digest article about accidental hot car deaths are handled in different jurisdictions, for example). In other words, there are many negligent accidents committed all the time and prosecuted all the time. It isn't always enough to be remorseful and suffering. We also don't know everything, we haven't seen the tapes. Do we know if grandpa had been drinking? Do we know what grandpa told the police vs. what the witnesses and tapes show? Etc.
 
I think the charges are in the same line as the ones doled out when someone leaves a kid in a hot car. Yes, it was an accident, but it still results in injury or death to a child. I think putting a kid on a ledge by an open window falls into the same category of negligence. If that's how the prosecutor is viewing it, then it's fair.
 
Prosecution and sentencing for crimes is supposed to achieve various aims for the good of society along with justice. Does grandpa need official discipline or punishment? I doubt this man will ever have another peaceful moment in his life purely on the basis of living with his own thoughts. Will convicting and punishing grandpa deter anyone from doing the same thing he did? What is the desired outcome to make the decision to prosecute in this case?
What about the lady who passed a stop school bus and hit three kids earlier this year? Should she not be prosecuted either? I doubt she will ever have another peaceful moment in her life.
 
What about the lady who passed a stop school bus and hit three kids earlier this year? Should she not be prosecuted either? I doubt she will ever have another peaceful moment in her life.
Totally agree with you.
And in reference to this thread, what if, instead of a family member, we substitute a nanny or babysitter. Should they be prosecuted? If convicted should they serve time?
Should accountability and consequences vary, depending on who is involved in the (potential) crime?
 
In fairness to the reporter, both Winkelman's quote and the video are from July.

Yes, I said it was too bad they repeated an old article for a new article. Repeating past articles without fact checking them is poor journalism. If you are putting your name to something, you need to do your own research to make sure you are stating facts rather than repeating misleading or fabricated information. The article might actually have been interesting and read worthy if they had done a bit of work and bring new light to the situation rather than regurgitate.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/grandfath...h-granddaughter-fell-cruise/story?id=66598409
This article left a really bad taste in my mouth. Between the attorney's statement which ultimately boils down to: I don't like these charges because they are inconvenient to my narrative and damage my case against RC, and the statement from the South Bend police organization calling the cruise line negligent. The point is that there is sufficient evidence that the grandfather "negligently exposed [his granddaughter] through one of the windows." per the PR DOJ and that he is a proximate cause in her death.

The lawyer also slightly mischaracterized the charge, as it is a misdemeanor, specifically punishable as a felony. You know the reason they did the full court PR press immediately is that they suspected this would happen and were trying to negotiate a settlement before that. It's the only strategy they had really. And the criminal trial should be over long before the civil proceeding even gets started. And even if he is not convicted, it may not hurt RC's defense that much. If the prosecutor can't meet the beyond a reasonable doubt standard, it doesn't mean that RC can't win on what the preponderance of the evidence shows.

PR certainly thinks they have a case, I don't think they'd go forward if they didn't think they did because of the bad publicity. Mom is an attorney and former prosecutor (and Dad police) so they are a fully informed family and likely have a game plan on this, I wouldn't put fully on their attorney. I agree, I think RCI was in a good position prior to charges, but now they are likely in much more control of the civil situation ... especially since most the support out there among the public (and the reason most companies pay off) is behind RCI.


It's appropriate to make a decision on whether or not to prosecute on the basis of what members of the family did in the aftermath re: television interviews and civil litigation? The person being charged with the crime has no part in either of those. I wouldn't want anyone deciding whether or not to charge me with a crime based on the actions of other people.

The same TV interview (that grandpa didn't participate in) that is being referenced above as a reasonable consideration in the decision to charge him very clearly includes references of statements allegedly made by the grandfather repeatedly blaming himself. If grandpa himself had gone on TV sobbing and blaming himself on camera would that be enough of a demonstration of remorse to negate the need to prosecute him? IMO the hardest people for grandpa to face and express remorse to have got to be the parents.

Prosecution and sentencing for crimes is supposed to achieve various aims for the good of society along with justice. Does grandpa need official discipline or punishment? I doubt this man will ever have another peaceful moment in his life purely on the basis of living with his own thoughts. Will convicting and punishing grandpa deter anyone from doing the same thing he did? What is the desired outcome to make the decision to prosecute in this case?

Whether the parents blame RCI and have filed lawsuits should have no place in the consideration of filing criminal charges against the grandfather, but it makes sense that there is incentive to do so. Cruise ships docking in Puerto Rico and the revenue the passengers bring to the economy are something officials have an incentive to maintain. The fact this criminal prosecution severely hampers, if not undercuts the civil litigation isn't insignificant

I hear you BUT all that likely does come in to play. In many court cases whether a person is charged can depend on the victims wishes, the circumstances around what happened, the location of where something happened or the need for precedent or answers. The victim can't speak for herself, so it may be the judge has said ... since those involved have not taken responsibility or possibly because they refused to cooperate ... we need to get the facts on record to move forward no matter the end result. The family is pointing full finger at RCI as if they lifted her up themselves, and wanted the public to know that they had no responsibility in the end result ... that is not true. So yes, maybe if they didn't do all that trying to lay blame on others they would not be here.

Since the family has refused to acknowledge what happened, refused to cooperate, left PR and went straight to the televisions to get America on "their side" ... what does PR do? Take the bullying. Just say "oh well, these things happen." I think if the facts and video show clear negligence then yes they have to move forward with the negligent charge. If Grandpa was driving drunk and she was in car and killed would we say don't charge him because he's Gpa and is in pain? And let the family move forward with suing the grocery store that sold him the beer without any context of responsibility. I get it - it's awful, I hope I am never in a situation where they have found themselves - but sadly accountability comes in to play, especially when there are others with a finger pointed at them.

Just because Grandpa is the one who did it doesn't make it any less chargeable. Not charging him is saying what he did is okay. Given willful action preceded the accident, he has to answer to that. But I do hope the judge can bring a finality to it (who knows Gpa may not have wanted it handled like the family did) and whatever the ruling, not put in him jail. There is no jail any worse than his own mind.
 
I think the charges are in the same line as the ones doled out when someone leaves a kid in a hot car. Yes, it was an accident, but it still results in injury or death to a child. I think putting a kid on a ledge by an open window falls into the same category of negligence. If that's how the prosecutor is viewing it, then it's fair.
Only half of those cases have had legal action. https://thecity.nyc/2019/07/jurys-out-on-prosecution-of-parents-who-leave-kids-in-cars.html
 

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