thinking about buying in, but have quick ???'s...

[Dean]

Originally posted by rinkwide
I take exception to that statement.

The very essence of a point-based program revolves around the question of unit availability since you're not dealing with the guaranteed fixed week of a traditional timeshare.

In the end it's DVDs choice, they can either clearly explain all details of their program upfront or deal with the repercussions later. Maybe it's better to ask forgiveness than permission.

While I agree that's the way it should be, it isn't. While DVC guides overall are honest and complete, but some are more so than others. And these are timeshare sales people, a profession that by and large is lower than used car sales. The rule in general talking about timeshare sales is they will lie to you flat out and you are lucky to get half truths. To criticise a DVC guide for omitting a few points that might be important to some and not to others is a bit stringent. And since there is so much information and it's a new concept for many, just because one got a certain impression or missed a key point does not mean the guide didn't try to convey it. And lastly, the guide's don't know all the answers. They may tell you what they honestly think and be totally wrong. It happens not at all uncommonly. But same could be said for any other system. I just read a note on TUG a couple of days ago where someone was talking to a friend who sells another timeshare company. This was over dinner, not a sales attempt. The non sales person was asking about some key points relating to the system in question. The salesman ended up making two calls to his supervisor during the lunch conversation and in both cases the salesperson was wrong on key points. BTW, it was Bluegreen and the two points were whether one had a 1 month priority to notify and use their deed week AND whether some properties in their system required reservations of 7 days only. I'll leave you hanging on the answers.

I took the DVC tour back in 2004 and was given some totally wrong information by a senior guide. I ended up buying resale but had the info. When I bought and realized all was not as I'd been told, I was somewhat upset. When I contacted DVC, they ended up offering to buy back my contact for all I'd paid. I seriously considered it but my wife wanted to keep it so we did. Glad we did.

 

[tjkraz]

Originally posted by rinkwide
The very essence of a point-based program revolves around the question of unit availability since you're not dealing with the guaranteed fixed week of a traditional timeshare.

DVC makes it clear that the program is not a "traditional timeshare". Beyond that, you're telling me that DVC needs to do a better job of communicating the fact that they don't keep a room open for every member 365 days / year waiting for a booking to occur?

I couldn't tell you the exact words that my Guide used to sell us points, but I was never left with the impression that rooms were available on anything other than a first come, first served basis--subject to the established booking windows. If that makes me "smarter than the average bear", so be it.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one...

 

[Cruelladeville]

Part of the problem is that the guides are not all equally informative about their product(DVC), since some guides don't even own their product. I think that the best way to truly understand DVC is to own DVC. I have been a member since 97, and after listening to one rep over at SSR, I wondered if he was talking about DVC or some other timeshare! Even I didn't understand his explanation of how DVC works, it's no wonder that some people would feel that it has been misrepresented to them when they bought. Some people just don't communicate very well.

 

[rinkwide]

Originally posted by tjkraz
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one...

I guess so. Because, timeshare or not, I just don't see any advantage for us, as members, to excuse a less-than-thorough sales process.

 

[tjkraz]

Originally posted by rinkwide
...timeshare or not, I just don't see any advantage for us, as members, to excuse a less-than-thorough sales process.

So you're telling me that when I walk into a car dealership, the salesman is being "less-than-thorough" if he neglects to tell me that I'll need to put gas in the car on occasion? Or perhaps he should mention the need for an oil change every 3mos / 3000 miles? Or maybe he should remind me that if I try to drive the car in 36" of snow, I might get stuck?

I admit this is getting a little ridiculous, but to me those suggestions are just about as ridiculous as explaining the concept behind "first-come, first-served" room reservations in a point-based timeshare.

It IS clear that members are not locked into a single week. It IS clear that members can use their points to book stays when they so desire. And, frankly, it SHOULD be clear that the resorts do not have unlimited availability, and that stays are subject to such availability...as clear as it is to a rational human being that you gotta put gas in a car if you want it to run.

 

[iluvtink]

Originally posted by tjkraz

I'll agree with that. The only other alternative I would consider would be SSR. With current promotions, you can get 49 years at SSR for $85 per point. A resale at OKW will get you 38 years for about $70 per point, plus closing costs and possible some maintenance fees. Just depends on whether you want to pay more for those additional years on the back end.


Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask more questions.

Thanks for the good luck... sorting this all out is a challenge! Can you explain the current promotions at SSR at $85 per point. DH was quoted $95 per point ... with 150 points free next year. Do those free points equal the $10 savings per point?

(I hate math )

 

[tjkraz]

Originally posted by iluvtink
Can you explain the current promotions at SSR at $85 per point. DH was quoted $95 per point ... with 150 points free next year. Do those free points equal the $10 savings per point?

(I hate math )

If you buy now, you won't get your first SSR points until 2005.

To compensate for that DVC will either give you a set of non-SSR points just for 2004 (technically they expire on 9/30/05), OR they wil knock $10 per point off of the price bringing it down to $85.

Either way you pay no dues until your Use Year arrives in 2005 (exact month depends on which month you choose), and if you finance through DVC, you have no payments/no interest until sometime in mid-'05.

Value-wise, the promotions are pretty comparable. If you plan to visit WDW in the next 12 mos, take the points. If not, take the cash discount.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by iluvtink
Thanks for the good luck... sorting this all out is a challenge! Can you explain the current promotions at SSR at $85 per point. DH was quoted $95 per point ... with 150 points free next year. Do those free points equal the $10 savings per point?

(I hate math )

You are essentially renting your first years points back to DVC but you have to pay at least some of the maint fees so it's less than $10 pp benefit. And if it causes you to buy more points than you need, any benefits are gone right there.

 

[patelaine1953]

When I called Member Services last Sept. with questions about how to book, the gentleman I spoke with told me one trick to booking a resort that may be short on space is to do your booking one day at a time. He said you can call each day to book one day. In the end you would have your booking for the total length you want to stay and would most likely be put in one room. They wouldn't be shuffling you around to different rooms. I didn't need to use that method for BWV this Sept. for a 2BR because that is my home resort and I wasn't looking for standard view. I just requested that I get a room near enough to the elevators. I also requested that I not be put over the boardwalk.

 

[patelaine1953]

If you buy now, you won't get your first SSR points until 2005.

Do you know this for a fact? I bought into BWV last July and finalized in Aug. and they backed my use year up to Feb. and gave me the full points for 2003. I thought that was standard procedure.

 

[rinkwide]

Originally posted by tjkraz
...explaining the concept behind "first-come, first-served" room reservations in a point-based timeshare.

Sorry, that's not what I'm debating.

The issue I'm discussing is the established practice of guides (either intentionally or otherwise) misleading prospective buyers by conveniently leaving out a reasonable explaination of the concept of "home resort" and the 11/7 windows. This implies that a member with a home of SSR has the same chance of booking BCV during spring-break as BCV owner.

I'm convinced this happens all the time as witnessed by my wife's impression of the program and that of three other people described in this thread. I think this is bad business and needs to be addressed by DVD.

...as clear as it is to a rational human being that you gotta put gas in a car if you want it to run.

I know you didn't mean this as an insult but I'm pretty sure someone lacking a sense of humor might take it that way.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by rinkwide
Sorry, that's not what I'm debating.

The issue I'm discussing is the established practice of guides (either intentionally or otherwise) misleading prospective buyers by conveniently leaving out a reasonable explaination of the concept of "home resort" and the 11/7 windows. This implies that a member with a home of SSR has the same chance of booking BCV during spring-break as BCV owner.

I'm convinced this happens all the time as witnessed by my wife's impression of the program and that of three other people described in this thread. I think this is bad business and needs to be addressed by DVD.

It is what it is, may as well get over it as it aint going to change. It may actually get worse if SSR sales slow even further as I expect them to.

 

[tjkraz]

Originally posted by Dean
You are essentially renting your first years points back to DVC but you have to pay at least some of the maint fees so it's less than $10 pp benefit. And if it causes you to buy more points than you need, any benefits are gone right there.

Dean,

In this one case, that's not exactly true. It's sounding like Phase 2 of SSR isn't slated to open until at least March '05. Since those are the only points DVC has to sell now at SSR, they are offering Developer's Points as a purchase incentive.

If someone buys a SSR March '05 Use Year, their dues don't start until March '05. Likewise if they buy a December '05 UY, dues don't begin until December.

So, in this situation, the Developer's Points really are free and clear of any dues obligations. And, in taking the $10 per point discount, there also are not any dues incurred on the points "lost".

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by tjkraz
Dean,

In this one case, that's not exactly true. It's sounding like Phase 2 of SSR isn't slated to open until at least March '05. Since those are the only points DVC has to sell now at SSR, they are offering Developer's Points as a purchase incentive.

If someone buys a SSR March '05 Use Year, their dues don't start until March '05. Likewise if they buy a December '05 UY, dues don't begin until December.

So, in this situation, the Developer's Points really are free and clear of any dues obligations. And, in taking the $10 per point discount, there also are not any dues incurred on the points "lost".

I think the poster was talking about MB where you trade back in your current years points for the credit. If I misunderstood, I apologize. Regardless, it can be a decent deal for the right person as long as they know what they're getting in to and don't buy extra points simply because of the promotion.

 

[tjkraz]

Originally posted by rinkwide
The issue I'm discussing is the established practice of guides (either intentionally or otherwise) misleading prospective buyers by conveniently leaving out a reasonable explaination of the concept of "home resort" and the 11/7 windows. This implies that a member with a home of SSR has the same chance of booking BCV during spring-break as BCV owner.

...and as soon as I heard about this concept of 11/7 month windows, my immediate reaction was to question their impact on my ability to make reservations. It wasn't too difficult to deduce that 11 months = easier to book, 7 months = harder to book.

I'm convinced this happens all the time as witnessed by my wife's impression of the program and that of three other people described in this thread. I think this is bad business and needs to be addressed by DVD.

...the key word that I'm picking out of your entire statment is "impression." As I said in my original post, anyone who chooses to put their own "spin" on the words that came out of the Guide's mouth has him/herself to blame.

If there was a factual problem with the claim that was made to you about the 11/7 month windows, then you have a beef, and should take it up with DVC.

I know you didn't mean this as an insult but I'm pretty sure someone lacking a sense of humor might take it that way.

No, it wasn't intended as an insult. It was intended to draw a parallel.

If I'm readng you correctly, you are expecting a salesperson to say something along the lines of:

"You can book your home resort at 11 months, but have to wait until 7 months to book all of the other resorts. And just to warn you, it could be really hard to get into some of the other resorts at 7 months--particularly during the first two weeks of December and during Holiday periods. Oh, and the Boardwalk and Beach Club can be difficult to book during the Food and Wine Festival. And the Standard View rooms at the Boardwalk--forget about them unless you own there. And the Wilderness Lodge is the smallest property on site, so that one can be hard to book year-round, too. And, if you look at the point charts, the Grand Villas at Old Key West are really cheap, and those are nearly impossible to book unless you own points there.

"But any other time of the year, your odds are REALLY good!!!"

I realize that this thread has now passed "ridiculous" and ventured into "ludicrous." If you truly feel that you were wronged, then I genuinely think you should complain to the higher-ups at DVC. I'd be really curious to hear their response to all of the facts presented here.

 

[rinkwide]

Originally posted by tjkraz
I realize that this thread has now passed "ridiculous" and ventured into "ludicrous."

I'm with you there.

If we don't quit now somebody might compare our discussion to racing in the Special Olympics.

 

[iluvtink]

OMG - what has happened to my sweet little innocent question-asking thread???

Honestly, I do appreciate all the input, and I can ignore the back'n'forth about car salesmen ... (actually, you guys crack me up! Were you members of the Debate Board pre-debaucle??? )

My DH is an attorney (boy, am I opening myself up for some zingers there) and his brother is a aeronautical engineer ... Truly something ain't right if they both came away thinking the same wrong thing about how easy it is to book anywhere. (nope... not something genetic, either!) That being said, the reason why I came here is that I knew I would get answers from caring, knowledgeable Disney lovers. Wouldn't consider buying without checking with y'all (the pros) first! Thanks and keep the info coming!

Caveat emptor applies even at DVC!!!

 

[DrTomorrow]

Even if you win ....

 

[rinkwide]

"Even if you win .... "

"...it really doesn't matter because everyone's a winner at the Special Olympics."

Isn't that how it goes Doc?

 

[RobDoc]

Originally posted by iluvtink
<SNIP>...
My DH is an attorney (boy, am I opening myself up for some zingers there) and his brother is a aeronautical engineer ... Truly something ain't right if they both came away thinking the same wrong thing about how easy it is to book anywhere. (nope... not something genetic, either!) That being said, the reason why I came here is that I knew I would get answers from caring, knowledgeable Disney lovers. Wouldn't consider buying without checking with y'all (the pros) first! Thanks and keep the info coming!

Caveat emptor applies even at DVC!!!

You've gotten some great information in this thread.

One item to make sure you have access to is the POS (Public Offering Statement). It contains all of the DVC "fine print" and will give your DH plenty of information to fill in the blanks as it is written completely in legalese! "Based on Availability" is prominently featured in the documents (it's usually been emphasized in the video too) and there is also a caveat that the written documents supercede any verbal comments made regarding the program. If the POS was not included in your information, make sure to request a copy. If you are purchasing resale, you will be held to all agreements already made with DVC by the previous owner- you may want to ask for those original documents from the seller.

As for the 7 month window, we have stayed at all 7 DVC Resorts using points for reservations booked within 7 months. Some of the concern expressed here is based on personal comfort levels- there may well be times when you'll be told there is no availability for the exact dates you want and some may accept that disappointment and go no further. The waitlist does work and a little patience usually goes a long way. We have even gotten a reservation at BWV for the first week in December where the waitlist worked within the last 7 days before arrival - admittedly not a comfortable situation, but the waitlist did work.

While many here may suggest that using the 7 month window as a sales tool is misleading/dishonest - it is an important component of the DVC program and it does work. I doubt there is ANY time period where a reservation cannot be found within 7 months- as long as you are patient and persistent. (You may need to be flexible as to resort and/or room type- but I'm confident something can be secured at any time within 7 months.)

If staying at a specific resort is important to you, buy there!!

When you think of other questions, please ask!

Enjoy!