The WDW 5th Park Debate

[New Mouse]

Most of these were just replacing already existing attractions. They really need to add more without taking stuff away.

Most of these were just replacing already existing attractions. They really need to add more without taking stuff away.

Zootopia as a franchise is irrelevant. Indiana Jones is dying if not dead due to the recent sequels.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Zootopia as a franchise is irrelevant.

The first movie made a little over a billion dollars and is releasing a highly anticipated sequel soon...? Also Disney built a new land based off of it in Shanghai which is super popular.

 

[tjkraz]

Most of these were just replacing already existing attractions. They really need to add more without taking stuff away.

Well, it's a little more nuanced than that.

Take Epcot for example. Ellen's Energy Adventure was an embarrassment of an attraction. Maybe they did trick a few hundred people per hour into giving 30-40 minutes of their day to that attraction, but exactly nobody left thinking it was a sound use of their time.

So Disneys choices are: A) spend several hundred million dollars turning EEA into something people actually want to do, or B) spend a little more money to wipe the slate clean and build something entirely new.

Fans would love Disney to do both. Every. Single. Time. But that's not the world we're living in. (Unless you really wanted them to split the budget between a mediocre refresh of EEA AND a mediocre new attraction.) At the end of the day, what's important is ending up with attraction(s) that hold much greater appeal and ideally accommodate far more guests per hour. And Cosmic Rewind accomplished that. So did Frozen Ever After. So did the Nemo dark ride a few years before. (Which we should probably call new since the Hydrolators were closed for years and it wasn't much of an "attraction.")

A similar scenario played out at HS where 3 attractions--backlot tour, great movie ride and lights, motors action--were replaced with 5. I'm aware many people would have preferred to see GMR revitalized, and I won't even argue against that one. Disney did what they did. The other two both seemed to have run their course and took up a LOT of real estate without returning a whole lot of value.

Then there are other factors like attraction operating costs (it's often been said that LMA as REALLY expensive to operate given the specialized skills and equipment involved), suitability of surrounding land, what can you really do in/around existing facilities, etc.

Assuming Muppetvision isn't really on the chopping block, MK, DHS and DAK are all set to see a net increase in attraction count / capacity. That's good. (Please don't tell me you think losing Launch Bay for the door coaster is a lateral move.) I don't expect Disney to just blindly keep old things open in the interest of "not taking stuff away." Sometimes, things run their course.

 

[Lesverts]

Well, it's a little more nuanced than that.

Take Epcot for example. Ellen's Energy Adventure was an embarrassment of an attraction. Maybe they did trick a few hundred people per hour into giving 30-40 minutes of their day to that attraction, but exactly nobody left thinking it was a sound use of their time.

So Disneys choices are: A) spend several hundred million dollars turning EEA into something people actually want to do, or B) spend a little more money to wipe the slate clean and build something entirely new.

Fans would love Disney to do both. Every. Single. Time. But that's not the world we're living in. (Unless you really wanted them to split the budget between a mediocre refresh of EEA AND a mediocre new attraction.) At the end of the day, what's important is ending up with attraction(s) that hold much greater appeal and ideally accommodate far more guests per hour. And Cosmic Rewind accomplished that. So did Frozen Ever After. So did the Nemo dark ride a few years before. (Which we should probably call new since the Hydrolators were closed for years and it wasn't much of an "attraction.")

A similar scenario played out at HS where 3 attractions--backlot tour, great movie ride and lights, motors action--were replaced with 5. I'm aware many people would have preferred to see GMR revitalized, and I won't even argue against that one. Disney did what they did. The other two both seemed to have run their course and took up a LOT of real estate without returning a whole lot of value.

Then there are other factors like attraction operating costs (it's often been said that LMA as REALLY expensive to operate given the specialized skills and equipment involved), suitability of surrounding land, what can you really do in/around existing facilities, etc.

Assuming Muppetvision isn't really on the chopping block, MK, DHS and DAK are all set to see a net increase in attraction count / capacity. That's good. (Please don't tell me you think losing Launch Bay for the door coaster is a lateral move.) I don't expect Disney to just blindly keep old things open in the interest of "not taking stuff away." Sometimes, things run their course.

Launch Bay was always going to on the chopping block as soon as Galaxy's Edge opened. Star Tours is adjacent enough and part of the entry area to justify it still operating. Launch Bay is on the other side of the park. I would also think the Indy show is going to be on the chopping block to be replaced by something else sooner or later.

As for what is happening to AK, Disney has already closed most of Dinoland it seems. The mouse coaster is gone. And the area is just depressing. Happy they are going to be doing something with it.

 

[New Mouse]

Well, it's a little more nuanced than that.

Take Epcot for example. Ellen's Energy Adventure was an embarrassment of an attraction. Maybe they did trick a few hundred people per hour into giving 30-40 minutes of their day to that attraction, but exactly nobody left thinking it was a sound use of their time.

So Disneys choices are: A) spend several hundred million dollars turning EEA into something people actually want to do, or B) spend a little more money to wipe the slate clean and build something entirely new.

Fans would love Disney to do both. Every. Single. Time. But that's not the world we're living in. (Unless you really wanted them to split the budget between a mediocre refresh of EEA AND a mediocre new attraction.) At the end of the day, what's important is ending up with attraction(s) that hold much greater appeal and ideally accommodate far more guests per hour. And Cosmic Rewind accomplished that. So did Frozen Ever After. So did the Nemo dark ride a few years before. (Which we should probably call new since the Hydrolators were closed for years and it wasn't much of an "attraction.")

A similar scenario played out at HS where 3 attractions--backlot tour, great movie ride and lights, motors action--were replaced with 5. I'm aware many people would have preferred to see GMR revitalized, and I won't even argue against that one. Disney did what they did. The other two both seemed to have run their course and took up a LOT of real estate without returning a whole lot of value.

Then there are other factors like attraction operating costs (it's often been said that LMA as REALLY expensive to operate given the specialized skills and equipment involved), suitability of surrounding land, what can you really do in/around existing facilities, etc.

Assuming Muppetvision isn't really on the chopping block, MK, DHS and DAK are all set to see a net increase in attraction count / capacity. That's good. (Please don't tell me you think losing Launch Bay for the door coaster is a lateral move.) I don't expect Disney to just blindly keep old things open in the interest of "not taking stuff away." Sometimes, things run their course.

Causing more people to come to the parks by creating a popular ride, but not coupling that with people eaters is a recipe for disaster.

It's good they are adding to make things attractive but those C and D tickets have a place in the world of operations and people movement.

 

[BrianL]

Causing more people to come to the parks by creating a popular ride, but not coupling that with people eaters is a recipe for disaster.

It's good they are adding to make things attractive but those C and D tickets have a place in the world of operations and people movement.

Yes - exactly, but nobody ever gets excited by the people-eaters, or the shows, etc. They also need more new stuff with no height requirement. All of the adult bloggers might write about how lame it is, but it is much needed!

 

[Cfabar1]

The name of MGM has already changed once. They should just get it over with and re-name DHS to "Disney Florida Adventure" since there's virtually no movie studio connection anymore.

I think the Universal/Marvel situation is what is really holding them back….

Disney’s Hollywood Studios offers a reminder of the great “Disney studios” IP
- Indiana Jones
- Pixar (expanding)
- Star Wars
- Disney (Beauty & The Beast, Mickey's Runaway Railroad)
- Muppets

Marvel is the one franchise they are missing there, and are unlikely to get it anytime soon.... Maybe a Deadpool attraction? or another guardians ride? or I believe Doctor Strange is also permitted. Maybe Eternals or Shang Chi?

 

[tjkraz]

Causing more people to come to the parks by creating a popular ride, but not coupling that with people eaters is a recipe for disaster.

It's good they are adding to make things attractive but those C and D tickets have a place in the world of operations and people movement.

Epcot added the Moana walk-through at the same time as Guardians and Remy. I guess we could argue that HS lost a couple "people eaters", but it still has Indiana Jones, Beauty and the Beast, Star Tours, MuppetVision and Frozen singalong, all of which routinely have minimal waits. Animal Kingdom is at least refreshing Tough to be a Bug while remaking Dinoland. Yes, that park could use another high capacity ride. Maybe it's Encanto. Have they said what that ride system will be? In the one piece of interior concept art, it looks like it could potentially be an omnimover.

And MK honestly has a ton of people eaters: Ariel, Philharmagic, Tiki room, Country Bears, Peoplemover, even It's a Small World is often pretty short.

 

[New Mouse]

And MK honestly has a ton of people eaters: Ariel, Philharmagic, Tiki room, Country Bears, Peoplemover, even It's a Small World is often pretty short

And MK is the one park that works. I could argue Epcot works as well because of the countries, but even those have gotten fairly stale. DHS and AK were never complete parks and 25 to 30 plus years they still arent.

 

[Cfabar1]

And MK is the one park that works. I could argue Epcot works as well because of the countries, but even those have gotten fairly stale. DHS and AK were never complete parks and 25 to 30 plus years they still arent.

wasn't the original studio tour something like 2 or 3 hours alone?

it was a full day park when it opened I think.

 

[tjkraz]

And MK is the one park that works. I could argue Epcot works as well because of the countries, but even those have gotten fairly stale. DHS and AK were never complete parks and 25 to 30 plus years they still arent.

Well, MK "works" because it has about 3x the number of attractions of the others. Hollywood Studios is at a point where you absolutely can fill a day. Problem is that includes a lot of stage shows which have little replay value for frequent guests. Which kinda brings the discussion full circle. People-eating attractions like Lights, Motors, Action have some value...but not really to the guests who visit over and over again.

wasn't the original studio tour something like 2 or 3 hours alone?

it was a full day park when it opened I think.

Yes, the tour was much longer. It was designed to mirror the Universal Studios backlot tour that had been running in Hollywood for years, which often got a peek at actual film production. At HS, people could see live disney animators at work, inside some sound stages and ideally some location filming. But that obviously didn't pan-out in the long run.

For many years, the only "rides" at HS were Rock N Rollercoaster, Tower of Terror and Star Tours. That's it. Things like Backlot Tour and Great Movie Ride were basically ride-thru theatrical productions. Today it's a much more mature park for an audience that expects thrills.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

it was a full day park when it opened I think.

We first went in 93 and we didn’t stay the whole day. Of course it was mid January and back then crowds were light in the winter. I’m pretty sure we did everything and still had time to go to River Country in the afternoon.

 

[jimmymc]

For me, Animal Kingdom and Hollywood Studios need some big updates before Disney breaks ground on a 5th gate. In addition to the announcements at D23, I would like to see Rock n Roller Coaster and Racing Academy both rethemed into a cohesive land and the back of the Muppets area actually used for something. For Animal Kingdom, put a good nighttime show on the lagoon and make Rafiki's Planet Watch a destination. Once all that is done, then I can see them getting ready for a 5th gate.

 

[Cfabar1]

Yes, the tour was much longer. It was designed to mirror the Universal Studios backlot tour that had been running in Hollywood for years, which often got a peek at actual film production. At HS, people could see live disney animators at work, inside some sound stages and ideally some location filming. But that obviously didn't pan-out in the long run.

Seeing the animators is one of my fondest childhood memories…

I actually think the original vision of MGM Studios was very special - and you can tell had Michael Eisner’s stamp all over it, but yes, now the purpose of the park in the Disney portfolio has completely changed

 

[Cfabar1]

For me, Animal Kingdom and Hollywood Studios need some big updates before Disney breaks ground on a 5th gate. In addition to the announcements at D23, I would like to see Rock n Roller Coaster and Racing Academy both rethemed into a cohesive land and the back of the Muppets area actually used for something. For Animal Kingdom, put a good nighttime show on the lagoon and make Rafiki's Planet Watch a destination. Once all that is done, then I can see them getting ready for a 5th gate.

It’s funny, to me some how AK mostly works… it needs more capacity in Dinosaur, and eventually adding the new Avatar ride as an expansion would be pretty cool if it is different enough from Navi River…

To me the park that most needs the attention is Hollywood studios, but after that I would say EPCOT needs some careful attention. Most of the rides are in need of some modernization or TLC. Wonders of Life still sitting empty, the Millennium Village needs to be demolished and replaced by another country or expansion, and then entire pavilions need to be reimagined like the Land pavilion and the Imagination Pavilion. Countries have show space for rides sitting vacant, the Frozen ride despite being a new ride needs some updating. I think it is because EPCOT is so close to being a perfect park that the problems are so glaring.

I would also prefer they reinvest in the idea of Disney being a true Vacation Kingdom. It is tragic to me that we lost championship golf courses, package delivery from the gift shops, etc. and even if Magical Express isn’t possible, come up with ways to entice folks to be hostage in the Disney bubble - increasing bus service levels would be a great start for example. It will make the vacations more magical.