The WDW 5th Park Debate

[randumb0]

People have been writing a eulogy for Walt Disney World dating back to the first Harry Potter attractions. In reality, they both Universal and Disney saw their attendance steadily climb. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Disney's profitability may suffer if they're forced to offer promotions and introduce new perks and benefits to boost business (free arrival day waterpark admission.) But it's not like waves of customers are going to abandon Disney for Universal. Universal's pricing and policies will also make sure guests are paying a premium to visit Epic Universe. And in a few years Disney will have its own new attractions to unveil. Competition is good.

Waves of customers? Hardly, but just enough to affect their profits

 

[tjkraz]

He spent all of his time - and that of his management team - supervising the programming of ABC-TV's schedule, to the neglect of everything else. It's all chronicled here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisneyWar

I've read Disney War. That's my point. We can't really glorify Eisner and the "Disney Decade" without acknowledging what followed. For better or worse, Eisner has to own all of that. It's pretty myopic to broadly suggest that Eisner = good and Iger = bad. I didn't even mention Paul Pressler. Yikes.

 

[HopperFan]

Would it be nice to have a 5th gate? Maybe. What would you theme it? ALL Marvel, ALL Villains, ALL Playhouse Disney or an overall theme that can cover multiple and what would that be?? I just don't see them ever doing the 5th gate in my lifetime. Universal would have to add their 4th plus upgrade their two older parks to make them any kind of competition for the tween and up group. Even they will they even compete?

Personally I don't want it because ALL the money it would take for the administration of the park takes away cash that could add attractions to existing parks. Folks don't think about all the non-front line CMs it takes to operate a park, the extra security staff, the extra transportation staff. Makes no sense to take on those expenses when you can add capacity at existing parks.

 

[tjkraz]

Marvel isn't even worth debating unless WDW could untangle itself from Universal.

Star Wars would have been obvious. But they invested so much in Galaxy's Edge that it no longer makes any sense. Plus many of the recent films and TV shows have soured many people on the present and future of SW. Still, massive lands themed to the original trilogy and/or prequels (with appropriate overlap with Clone Wars, Mandalorian, etc) would have been very popular.

Universal will soon have 3 parks in Florida and they each lack any unifying theme. All 3 have some Harry Potter presence plus a jumble of owned and licensed properties, live action and animation. And video games. I know there's an inclination to hold Disney to a higher standard. But personally I don't want to see rigidity stifle innovation.

Villains seems a little too niche for an entire park. ~10 years ago, my daughter didn't even like going to Animal Kingdom because she was intimidated by the animals. I couldn't see Disney pursuing a park that would be a turn-off to a significant portion of their audience.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Would it be nice to have a 5th gate? Maybe. What would you theme it? ALL Marvel, ALL Villains, ALL Playhouse Disney or an overall theme that can cover multiple and what would that be??

DisneySea.

 

[HopperFan]

DisneySea.

I have not been but DH and DD went to Tokyo. DH goes to Disney with us every 6 years or so. He has fun and all but he has no desire to be a regular so far. He LOVED it! He said it was the feel of Epcot with very high end attractions ... that we don't get.

DD was just here and we were talking about all the news. They both started talking about the above and beyond attractions at TokyoSea.

So my questions are (1) Would it be too much of a global/Epcot feel and therefore not original enough? (2) Would Disney ever spend that kind of money on high end attractions when they aren't spending other folks money for the attractions? (3) What do you do about all the attractions that we already have? It would involve lots of new original attractions.

 

[BrianL]

I have not been but DH and DD went to Tokyo. DH goes to Disney with us every 6 years or so. He has fun and all but he has no desire to be a regular so far. He LOVED it! He said it was the feel of Epcot with very high end attractions ... that we don't get.

DD was just here and we were talking about all the news. They both started talking about the above and beyond attractions at TokyoSea.

So my questions are (1) Would it be too much of a global/Epcot feel and therefore not original enough? (2) Would Disney ever spend that kind of money on high end attractions when they aren't spending other folks money for the attractions? (3) What do you do about all the attractions that we already have? It would involve lots of new original attractions.

I have read speculation that the new Peter Pan ride at Fantasy Springs Tokyo DisneySea uses a ride vehicle as the new Avengers ride for DCA, so hopefully that will be as high-end as what they have in Tokyo. I went to TDS a while back and it is indeed amazing. I really want to go back to see the new stuff.

 

[HopperFan]

I have read speculation that the new Peter Pan ride at Fantasy Springs Tokyo DisneySea uses a ride vehicle as the new Avengers ride for DCA, so hopefully that will be as high-end as what they have in Tokyo. I went to TDS a while back and it is indeed amazing. I really want to go back to see the new stuff.

I just think the big rides as a whole put most ours to shame per their comments and description. Not sure a ride vehicle would really change that.

Would love to go to Tokyo and since DH LOVES Japan (used to go several times a year for years) he would go ......... but I honestly don't think myself or DS (disabled) could handle that plane ride.

2020 we were booked for DL and we know what happened there.
2021 we were to go to DL Paris, but shifted our points to WDW and took extended family.

I feel like now neither will happen so I'm excited about all this new stuff at my home away from home.

 

[BrianL]

I just think the big rides as a whole put most ours to shame per their comments and description. Not sure a ride vehicle would really change that.

Would love to go to Tokyo and since DH LOVES Japan (used to go several times a year for years) he would go ......... but I honestly don't think myself or DS (disabled) could handle that plane ride.

2020 we were booked for DL and we know what happened there.
2021 we were to go to DL Paris, but shifted our points to WDW and took extended family.

I feel like now neither will happen so I'm excited about all this new stuff at my home away from home.

What I mean is that they are using the same ride system for the Avengers ride, so it should be just as big and AAA as the one at Tokyo. Granted that's just the one, and many of the best rides I've ever been on were at the Tokyo property, but still, it's a start.

 

[wdw&sonny]

Agree with the many that said don't build a new park- fix the existing parks. Universal is creating a park with lands like Nintendo, Harry Potter, Dragons and Monsters. Much more relatable to families and younger generations; current, exciting, interactive.

Magic Kingdom, meanwhile is stuck in 1960 with Tiki Room, Country Bears, gas guzzling go karts, Tom Sawyer Island, Swiss Family Tree House, a Riverboat, Carousel of Progress and and an empty building. None of these is relevant to anyone under 60 year old, aside from nostalgia. Tiki Room and Country Bears use some of the earliest animatronics that by today's standards is just sad. COP is embarrassing in that it is supposed to be about progress and it has been unchanged for many decades. The one scene talks about "turn of the century". We're 24 years into the NEXT century. Walt would have turned those go karts into electric vehicles 50 years ago. By now they would be solar or hydrogen powered. Tom Sawyer and Swiss Family, really, anyone read those lately to your kids? Tomorrow land, like almost all MK lands, Hollywood Studios and Epcot have not been kept current or to their original theming.

Walt would have recognized that while a Frontier Land, Liberty Square and Main Street USA were of interest to him and perhaps the country in 1960, the parks need to evolve. He would have kept it current.

 

[DisRich]

The idea of DisneySea at WDW sounds good in theory because if we got a sort of replica it would be but the sad truth is the main reasons DT is awesome is because Tokyo funded it 100% with no financial commitment from Disney (originally) because they wanted an epic park, so that’s what they got technologically and visually. On top of that the parks are run through a Japanese company and the way they do their fast passes and crowd management is light years beyond how Disney operates its parks. It barely feels crowded ever and you can manage your wait lines way more effectively. The main problem comes back to and will always come back to Disneys management of how the parks and how they operate. Maybe a bigger need than anything they could develop at this point.

 

[DisFanDad]

Just to chime in - cuz I like this convo. I was VERY much part of the - "THEY NEED A 5th PARK" crowd. However, people have of recent convinced me very solidly they do not - they need to expand the 3 "other" parks though - very badly. In fact - hot take - the recently announced additions / changes to Magic Kingdom are exactly the WRONG thing to do. Magic Kingdom is fine, its good, its got lots to do. It's big, we already often have to zig zag drag our butts crisscrossing that damn park to get all the things done we want to do. Adding more to it - really isn't adding more - in fact, it might be taking away from the park and the park experience overall. I'm thinking that it will become VERY difficult to really "do it all" in a day - but there wont be enough to do 2 days back to back either. It's going to make MK - really weird logistically - for repeat guests anyway. First timers will be fine.

On the other hand, AK, HS, EPCOT - dang - they need some love. They need to be fleshed out considerably. Despite recent investments - perhaps because of how some of the investment was done (replacing rather than adding capacity in many way in HS) both remain kind of half day parks - especially if you rope drop, and ESPECIALLY if you rope drop and use lightning lanes. We did that on our last trip we hit Rise, Smugglers, Slinky, midway, Swirling, (M&M RR was down all day), Star tours, Rocking, and Tower - and we were gone by lunch - and we took time to sit down and have some snacks / food as well, Num num cookie, Woody's lunch box. Animal Kingdom - I mean we just pop in there at like 3pm, we can do everything but River (cuz who cares about the river) by 6pm, in fact we usually get to ride Everest and/or safari more than once.

They don't need 5th park, with a 5th entrance and 5th place to transport people to, and 5th security and opening gate and ticket staff, etc. They need to massively expand HS and AK and to some extent EPCOT (cuz, they just keep replacing there, not really adding).

 

[Lesverts]

People give Animal Kingdom such a bad wrap. In general it is only open for about 7 to 9 hours a day and I can fill all of those hours in that park without going into Dinoland USA. Cause even knowing Dinosaur is going to be closing soon I still couldn't be bothered.

If you are just rushing from one ride to the next ya, but the two trails along can take up 2 hours for me. Everyone just speed walks through the Oasis and Discovery Island but there is a lot to look at and experience there too. I mean I have rode EE 21 times in a row using single rider before. People do a disservice to Joe Rohde and all those involved in AK to look past everything there is to see and walk through in AK. I just wish they would open the park at night more often.

 

[DisFanDad]

People give Animal Kingdom such a bad wrap. In general it is only open for about 7 to 9 hours a day and I can fill all of those hours in that park without going into Dinoland USA. Cause even knowing Dinosaur is going to be closing soon I still couldn't be bothered.

If you are just rushing from one ride to the next ya, but the two trails along can take up 2 hours for me. Everyone just speed walks through the Oasis and Discovery Island but there is a lot to look at and experience there too. I mean I have rode EE 21 times in a row using single rider before. People do a disservice to Joe Rohde and all those involved in AK to look past everything there is to see and walk through in AK. I just wish they would open the park at night more often.

But - the park shouldn't be open for only 7 to 9 hours a day - there is a reason it is only open that period, there is nothing to do there, and there aren't enough people there. Heck Pandora was designed to be open at night, I'd argue MORE so than during the day, but its not open at night, because the park closes at 6pm. Right there - that's the biggest clue there just isn't enough to do at the park, it closes at 6pm, and by 6pm, its already a ghost town.

 

[croschek05]

But - the park shouldn't be open for only 7 to 9 hours a day - there is a reason it is only open that period, there is nothing to do there, and there aren't enough people there. Heck Pandora was designed to be open at night, I'd argue MORE so than during the day, but its not open at night, because the park closes at 6pm. Right there - that's the biggest clue there just isn't enough to do at the park, it closes at 6pm, and by 6pm, its already a ghost town.

It's been 4 trips since my last AK visit. Most likely not going next summer either and we're staying at the AK Lodge

 

[Cfabar1]

Animal Kingdom is one of our favorite parks, and I agree with you… there needs to be more to do…

By demolishing Dinoland it sounds to me like they are replacing capacity… they need to add more rides there use an Avatar expansion pad for example, and maybe more….

 

[tjkraz]

Animal Kingdom is one of our favorite parks, and I agree with you… there needs to be more to do…

By demolishing Dinoland it sounds to me like they are replacing capacity… they need to add more rides there use an Avatar expansion pad for example, and maybe more….

Primeval Whirl has been closed for 5 years and Triceratop Spin is a giant nothing burger. The Encanto attraction will add more capacity. And Indiana Jones + Zootopia are destined to be more popular than Dinosaur + ITTBAB. Yes, the park still needs more after that.

It's sort of funny how expectations keep ratcheting up over time. Wasn't all that long ago that DAK didn't even have Pandora. I can even remember when Everest wasn't there. About 8 years ago, Epcot's premier attractions were Test Track and Soarin. No Remy, GOTG or Frozen Ever After. Just 6 years ago, Hollywood Studios had no Toy Story Land or Galaxy's Edge.

 

[Cfabar1]

It's sort of funny how expectations keep ratcheting up over time. Wasn't all that long ago that DAK didn't even have Pandora. I can even remember when Everest wasn't there. About 8 years ago, Epcot's premier attractions were Test Track and Soarin. No Remy, GOTG or Frozen Ever After. Just 6 years ago, Hollywood Studios had no Toy Story Land or Galaxy's Edge.

Yes that is true, though the original design of MGM Studios was something completely different, and in the years between the original vision and where we are now, that park for example was kind of bleak with the offerings. I understand financially why the studio didn't work, and without the studio how the studio tour didn't work, and why they went on Mickey & Minnie instead of the great movie ride, but it did have a major impact....

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Yes that is true, though the original design of MGM Studios was something completely different, and in the years between the original vision and where we are now, that park for example was kind of bleak with the offerings. I understand financially why the studio didn't work, and without the studio how the studio tour didn't work, and why they went on Mickey & Minnie instead of the great movie ride, but it did have a major impact....

The name of MGM has already changed once. They should just get it over with and re-name DHS to "Disney Florida Adventure" since there's virtually no movie studio connection anymore.

 

[Moliphino]

Primeval Whirl has been closed for 5 years and Triceratop Spin is a giant nothing burger. The Encanto attraction will add more capacity. And Indiana Jones + Zootopia are destined to be more popular than Dinosaur + ITTBAB. Yes, the park still needs more after that.

It's sort of funny how expectations keep ratcheting up over time. Wasn't all that long ago that DAK didn't even have Pandora. I can even remember when Everest wasn't there. About 8 years ago, Epcot's premier attractions were Test Track and Soarin. No Remy, GOTG or Frozen Ever After. Just 6 years ago, Hollywood Studios had no Toy Story Land or Galaxy's Edge.

Most of these were just replacing already existing attractions. They really need to add more without taking stuff away.