The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[Intr3pid]

N/m, found a source: https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...OVID-19-vaccine-provide-similar-immunity.aspx

Full text: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.20.21255670v1.full-text

Here are my notes on this study:

1. The research looked at those who recovered (adequately) from the initial infection. It investigated how many re-contracted the virus. If you survived the initial infection and didn't have major health problems (so, no long haulers), you were in this group.

2. You can think of this group as the folks whose immune systems learned to fight and dispel the virus with only the medical equipment/treatment and/or quarantine. The immune systems produced antibodies similar to what the vaccines would trigger. This was an excellent finding, as it would help countries like India deal with rampant infections.

3. The study looked at subsequent reinfections and breakthroughs - including the severity of cases. It did so, however, only for a follow-up period of three months. It would make sense that the antibodies that you produced to fight the virus would still be at hand after three months. But - we don't know what would happen in, say, six months or a year. The authors admit this as the main weakness of the study.

4. This wasn't a controlled study. You wouldn't control who was being tested or being left out. The research was sourced from those who chose to undergo testing out of their own accord. It didn't control for the timing or access to testing by portions of populations. It still did a very good job of working with the data it had.

-------------------

In short, for the infection to generate the antibodies, make sure you (A) survive the virus, (B) are OK with the possibility of long-haul symptoms, (C) can spare time for a quarantine or treatment of up to two weeks without notice, and (D) are ready to possibly repeat the process in three months.

That, or you could get a vaccine.

 

[DCLMP]

Israel's large 3 month study found natural infection to be 96 percent effective against hospitalisations versus 94 percent with the vaccine. The fact that vaccines are being given to people with previously confirmed infections is highly worrying to me. "Follow the science", or just parts of it, when it suits.

My family has had covid and everyone I know that has had covid and got the vaccine got really sick after the second shot. Most people don't get an antibody test before they get vaccinated. The VAERS report also seems to be ignored by the media.

 

[DCLMP]

Lots of pent up demand.

The people that want to vaccinate their kids will rush out and get it. Demand will fall off rapidly and then they'll be trying to figure out ways to bribe parents. Krispy Cremes or Fries, please.

 

[DCLMP]

r

 

[AquaDame]

My family has had covid and everyone I know that has had covid and got the vaccine got really sick after the second shot. Most people don't get an antibody test before they get vaccinated. The VAERS report also seems to be ignored by the media.

I know it's just anecdotal, but I had a few friends and coworkers that had rough times when they caught covid but were OK with the shot. One had a mild fever for a day but compared to being completely flattened with covid for a week it was nothing (his words, not mine). The worst I've heard from people I've spoken to IRL is a mild fever for a day and sore arms/bodies at some point in the first 48 hours. Then they were fine which is about what I experienced having never caught it - my "fever" was my temp going up ~2 degrees for an evening.

 

[ahain]

........... The worst I've heard from people I've spoken to IRL is a mild fever for a day and sore arms/bodies at some point in the first 48 hours. Then they were fine which is about what I experienced having never caught it - my "fever" was my temp going up ~2 degrees for an evening.

This was the exact experience of my family and "circle," including co-workers. Out of approximately 20 people, at least half of them had already had COVID and recovered. Of the ones hat had COVID, only one experienced significant symptoms - flu-like symptoms for 2-3 days. Of the 20 people, all except 2 have had at least 1 vaccine shot. (the 2 are anti-vax). Of those who had the vaccine, nearly all had absolutely no side affects besides a sore arm for a couple of days and minor fever. DD has a low-grade fever (1.5-2 degrees up) for about 24 hours. One co-worker (the same one who had the more severe symptoms with Covid) also got flu-like symptoms for 2 days following each one of her vaccine shots.

 

[mevelandry]

So I don't know that it is the right place to post this but apparently the State of Florida lost in court and the judge is sending SofF and the CDC in mediation? Can't wait to see what will happen with that... And if cruise lines will make vaccines mandatory in the end.

 

[brentm77]

So I don't know that it is the right place to post this but apparently the State of Florida lost in court and the judge is sending SofF and the CDC in mediation? Can't wait to see what will happen with that... And if cruise lines will make vaccines mandatory in the end.

I am not in a place I can pull the docket right now. But it doesn't appear from the article I read that Florida lost. The judge is making them mediate before he makes a ruling on the motion. Keep in mind that even if he rules against Florida, this is just the motion for a preliminary injunction. The full case will proceed after that and Florida could still win a permanent injunction at a later date.

The judge probably senses things are starting to change and that there is an opportunity for the parties to reach agreement without him having to make a decision.

I will post more details if there is anything important in the docket when I pull it.

Update: I pulled the docket. The above is correct. The judge has not ruled on the motion and has ordered the parties to mediate no later than June 1. If the mediation does not resolve the dispute, then the judge will make a ruling at a later date.

 

[KatheeME]

Incorrect statement it's not a requirement. Certain states for religious reasons and other states just for personal reasons.

So no it's not required actually. Honestly I would be surprised if there is more than 1 or 2 states that don't have some easy way to exempt yourself or your kids from vaccines if you really wanted to.

It IS a requirement at many colleges here in Maine, starting in the fall.

 

[tink2424]

If by "rationed" you mean that health care systems won't pay for every experimental treatments (that will likely give little results) for terminally ill patients...

For the rest... I'd go with "budgeted", not "rationed".



If that was the case, governments would probably prefer to save some $ by not giving out vaccines for free...

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/3/20-4543_article
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.busi...ty-against-covid-19-in-6-months/1/436312.html
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/01/210106142648.htm
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55905158
As others have previously said, immunity seems to vary from one person no another... So far, there is no "easily available" way to verify everyone's immunity... IMO, It's just more simple to assume it isn't likely to last more than a few weeks/months and go with the shot.

... and some variants like P1 (Brazil Variants) --the scariest, IMO) are more likely to reinfect people more easily than the OG and other variants:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-variant-evaded-immunity-previous-covid-cases

Your not citing any studies. Your citing opinion articles. Show me the DATA.

 

[DCLMP]

It IS a requirement at many colleges here in Maine, starting in the fall.

I think we are going to see huge differences in how states handle vaccines. Just as we did in how they handled covid.

 

[Mousequake]

Your not citing any studies. Your citing opinion articles. Show me the DATA.

The very first link she posted was a study. One of the others links to the study the article is describing. The data is there.

 

[braysmommy]

It IS a requirement at many colleges here in Maine, starting in the fall.

Same where I live in MA. Glad the college I work at is also looking at making it a requirement for faculty/staff and not just students. This spring it has been faculty/staff that has brought the virus to campus (we test twice a week and students 3 times a week).

 

[Intr3pid]

Looks like Europe is opening up to fully vaccinated travelers this summer.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/19/eu-agrees-to-ease-travel-restrictions-on-non-eu-tourists.html
They are thinking of setting up a process for Americans to apply for the EU's digital green certificate. (I imagine this is to address the lack of a uniform vaccine reporting system in the US.) Think of it like the visa process except that you will likely upload a copy of your CDC card electronically and get the certificate ahead of time.

A bit of irony for residents of states such as Florida. Their own state government won't have their vaccination data - but if they want to travel internationally, the foreign governments will.

 

[nancipants]

Looks like Europe is opening up to fully vaccinated travelers this summer.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/19/eu-agrees-to-ease-travel-restrictions-on-non-eu-tourists.html
They are thinking of setting up a process for Americans to apply for the EU's digital green certificate. (I imagine this is to address the lack of a uniform vaccine reporting system in the US.) Think of it like the visa process except that you will likely upload a copy of your CDC card electronically and get the certificate ahead of time.

A bit of irony for residents of states such as Florida. Their own state government won't have their vaccination data - but if they want to travel internationally, the foreign governments will.

I would GLADLY let the state have my vaccination data. Unfortunately, I do not have that choice and will instead have to go through hoops to prove I'm vaccinated. It makes no sense at all to me.

 

[HiStitch626]

Looks like Europe is opening up to fully vaccinated travelers this summer.

Had to cancel a work trip in April as I did not qualify for a travel waiver despite being fully vaccinated. Some things are just not the same over zoom, so I am looking forward to being in person again in the future. I think you had to be a movie star to travel to the UK in April this year...

 

[tink2424]

Just because we are getting better at making, testing, and distributing vaccines doesn't really apply. By the time this gets full FDA approval and is available to all age groups, we will likely be at or past a year. Even if this gets full FDA approval this summer, that will only be for 18+. It still needs EUA for kids, then the full FDA approval for kids. That wont happen until mid 2022 at the earliest. I can agree that states should probably wait until we get to that point before mandating them for K-12 schools. But once it is FDA approved, I no longer think it is relevant how long it took to develop.

Getting better at making & distributing vaccines does not mean that if we weren't in a pandemic more that 6 mos worth of data wouldn't be needed to get approval. It is unlikely that we would ever see EUA or FDA approval for a vaccine or drug in this timeframe since it really doesn't line up with how research is conducted.

The issues that mevelandry cites had nothing to do with rationing and everything to do with a pandemic situation. I was supposed to have surgery in May of 2020 that was postponed not due to rationing but because my local hospital had passed a threhold of people hospitalized for Covid. There were small towns in the US that were overwhelmed and had to send patients away to larger facilities as they had too many Covid cases.

Waits for elective surgery absolutely occur in the US. My planned surgery was elective and I had to wait. But, in Canada or the UK, or Thailand or Belarus or Turkey or any other place in the world with Universal care, emergencies are treated as emergencies, and care is provided immediately.

I responded as you quoted me, but I am done tilting at windmills.

The wait for elective surgery in the US is very short compared to the years some people wait in socialized medicine countries. It is no where near the same situation.

In short, for the infection to generate the antibodies, make sure you (A) survive the virus, (B) are OK with the possibility of long-haul symptoms, (C) can spare time for a quarantine or treatment of up to two weeks without notice, and (D) are ready to possibly repeat the process in three months.

That, or you could get a vaccine.

I'm not saying that people who haven't had COVID should try to get COVID instead of the vaccine. What I am saying is that if you had COVID already you shouldn't need to get the vaccine or be limited because you didn't get the vaccine. The vast majority that have gotten COVID already have robust immunity that is just as good as the vaccine. Now maybe in the future there is another variant that comes along that I don't have protection from and I would consider taking that vaccine.

The very first link she posted was a study. One of the others links to the study the article is describing. The data is there.

Again that study is only looking at antibody response which is NOT a long term response for infections. The long term response is B cells & T cells which research is showing is VERY robust even for those who don't generate a large antibody response. Unfortunately the powers that be are ignoring this data and just perpetuating the lie that all people need the vaccine.

Looks like Europe is opening up to fully vaccinated travelers this summer.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/19/eu-agrees-to-ease-travel-restrictions-on-non-eu-tourists.html
They are thinking of setting up a process for Americans to apply for the EU's digital green certificate. (I imagine this is to address the lack of a uniform vaccine reporting system in the US.) Think of it like the visa process except that you will likely upload a copy of your CDC card electronically and get the certificate ahead of time.

A bit of irony for residents of states such as Florida. Their own state government won't have their vaccination data - but if they want to travel internationally, the foreign governments will.

Not just for vaccinated individuals. Vaccinated individuals would not need to test or quarantine. Everything I have read is that there will be a testing option for those who have not been vaccinated and of course also exemptions for those who have recently recovered from COVID.

 

[orum]

Not just for vaccinated individuals. Vaccinated individuals would not need to test or quarantine. Everything I have read is that there will be a testing option for those who have not been vaccinated and of course also exemptions for those who have recently recovered from COVID.

Do you know what the time frame is for recently in these cases or what documentation they will be looking for? I have a couple of friends who had Covid, but not the vaccine. I think they are waiting a little bit longer to get vaccinated.

 

[HiStitch626]

The wait for elective surgery in the US is very short compared to the years some people wait in socialized medicine countries. It is no where near the same situation.

" A common misconception in the U.S. is that countries with universal health care have much longer wait times. However, data from nations with universal coverage, and historical data from coverage expansion in the United States, show that patients in other nations have similar or shorter wait times. "

Health care wait time by country

 

[mevelandry]

I am not in a place I can pull the docket right now. But it doesn't appear from the article I read that Florida lost. The judge is making them mediate before he makes a ruling on the motion. Keep in mind that even if he rules against Florida, this is just the motion for a preliminary injunction. The full case will proceed after that and Florida could still win a permanent injunction at a later date.

The judge probably senses things are starting to change and that there is an opportunity for the parties to reach agreement without him having to make a decision.

I will post more details if there is anything important in the docket when I pull it.

Update: I pulled the docket. The above is correct. The judge has not ruled on the motion and has ordered the parties to mediate no later than June 1. If the mediation does not resolve the dispute, then the judge will make a ruling at a later date.

Thank you for the correction. The article I read on a cruise website led me to believe that Florida had "lost".