The Vaccine Discussion Thread

[mevelandry]

Yes, many here on this site have said that it shouldn't be a choice.


Well that is socialized medicine for you...


There is absolutely no data on this at all comparing those that have had COVID getting the vaccine having more immunity or better immunity than those who had COVID but do not get the vaccine. Not one real world study on this.

Actually no, it's not exactly socialized medicine but more a mix of public and private ...

And other than difficulties during historical pandemic, it is absolutely amazing and I wouldn't change it for any other system.

****

And there is data on this. I don't have time right now to provide links for you but it's outhere.

Update: Extended lunch break yayyyy! There you go various studies and takes on those studies:

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/n...ho-had-covid19-may-only-need-one-vaccine-dose
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/04/210415141826.htm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/7718284/covid-vaccine-one-dose-antibody-study/amp/
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-response-vaccination-after-covid-19
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/19/health/covid-vaccine-single-dose.html

 

[Dug720]

I don't want to accuse anyone of anything, so I will merely ask, how was this comment intended to be interpreted, because to me it comes across as highly xenophobic. Are you trying to imply that Indian people deserve the Covid outbreaks because they are dirty and filthy people, or am I mis-reading this?

And lets not even get into the large number of crew on DCL who are from India. I've had servers and stateroom hosts from India and they are all wonderful people (there are also crew in many other positions who are from India). I pray that they and their families are able to stay as safe as possible through this crisis.

 

[tink2424]

I'm sorry...what? Please elaborate.

Everything in socialized medicine is rationed. That is why wealthy people come to the US to be treated when they live in socialist countries.

 

[TeamRipper]

You say let's not compare it to others, but that is exactly what you are doing as well when you compare how long it took to develop this vs other vaccines. a comparison.

My problem with this logic is it's arbitrary. Once the vaccine reached full FDA approval, and is available to all age groups, where is the logic in treating it differently than other fully FDA approved medications. It shouldn't matter how slow or long it took to develop. FDA approved is FDA approved. There never in the past has been a different and arbitrary secondary approval of vaccines that take into account how long they took to make. Who gets to determine what is or isn't a sufficient amount of time?

The only barometer we have is FDA approval. If you disagree with the FDA, well then you are staking a line in the sand and nothing will convince you otherwise. And you have every right to that opinion. But we should not be changing decades of policy around vaccine mandates due to the political nature of this situation.

They are NOT yet FDA approved. As of May 14th, the Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson have been granted emergency use authorization (EUA). EUA is allowed in urgent situations if they benefits are thought to outweigh the risks. While this may be splitting hairs, it is important to be specific in the usage of terms.

 

[jrapps]

They are NOT yet FDA approved. As of May 14th, the Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson have been granted emergency use authorization (EUA). EUA is allowed in urgent situations if they benefits are thought to outweigh the risks. While this may be splitting hairs, it is important to be specific in the usage of terms.

Yes, and if you read my posts above, you will in every case where I discussed mandates, I prefaced it by saying ONCE they are FDA approved and available for every age group. Not before that.

 

[tink2424]

If this is a side effect of socialized medicine, why did similar issues occur in the US?

The issues we had were based on the number of cases we had due to the pandemic. Rationing never actually even happened in the US from what I understand. Rationing is the norm for socialized medicine. Long waits for procedures that we have here the next day is very common.

Well for one they have blanket immunity on these particular vaccines.

To be clear - ALL VACCINES - have blanket immunity. That is part of the larger issue.

Varicella (Chickenpox) vaccine is only 90% effective, required in all 50 states

DTaP is only 80-90% effective. Required in all 50 states

Even Polio is only 90% effective after 2 doses and required in...all 50 states

So yes, in my opinion Covid should and eventually will be just as required as these, with the same exception processes in place for people to opt out if they don't want their kids to get it. But to say that these other vaccines can be required, but Covid can't is just a perspective that I can't get behind. That is just politics.

I still wouldn't be happy but yes at least an exemption program would be better than nothing. But that isn't what is being suggested here. What people are suggesting is vaccine passports to participate in activities that NEVER required vaccines before. Additionally you can bypass vaccines if you have titers that prove you already have immunity. We don't have anything like a titers test for those with natural immunity.

You say let's not compare it to others, but that is exactly what you are doing as well when you compare how long it took to develop this vs other vaccines. a comparison.

My problem with this logic is it's arbitrary. Once the vaccine reached full FDA approval, and is available to all age groups, where is the logic in treating it differently than other fully FDA approved medications. It shouldn't matter how slow or long it took to develop. FDA approved is FDA approved. There never in the past has been a different and arbitrary secondary approval of vaccines that take into account how long they took to make. Who gets to determine what is or isn't a sufficient amount of time?

The only barometer we have is FDA approval. If you disagree with the FDA, well then you are staking a line in the sand and nothing will convince you otherwise. And you have every right to that opinion. But we should not be changing decades of policy around vaccine mandates due to the political nature of this situation.

All other vaccines & drugs go through more than 1 year of testing before being approved. We are definitely outside of the scope of what the FDA has normally done.

Update: Extended lunch break yayyyy! There you go various studies and takes on those studies:

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/n...ho-had-covid19-may-only-need-one-vaccine-dose
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/04/210415141826.htm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/7718284/covid-vaccine-one-dose-antibody-study/amp/
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/immune-response-vaccination-after-covid-19
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/19/health/covid-vaccine-single-dose.html

These don't say anything about natural immunity versus vaccine immunity. All these say is that if you have had COVID that you would only "need" 1 shot versus 2. What I am referring to is that I don't need ANY shots as my own natural immunity is sufficient. The governments are just ignoring this fact.

 

[mevelandry]

Everything in socialized medicine is rationed. That is why wealthy people come to the US to be treated when they live in socialist countries.

If by "rationed" you mean that health care systems won't pay for every experimental treatments (that will likely give little results) for terminally ill patients...

For the rest... I'd go with "budgeted", not "rationed".

These don't say anything about natural immunity versus vaccine immunity. All these say is that if you have had COVID that you would only "need" 1 shot versus 2. What I am referring to is that I don't need ANY shots as my own natural immunity is sufficient. The governments are just ignoring this fact.

If that was the case, governments would probably prefer to save some $ by not giving out vaccines for free...

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/3/20-4543_article
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.busi...ty-against-covid-19-in-6-months/1/436312.html
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/01/210106142648.htm
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55905158
As others have previously said, immunity seems to vary from one person no another... So far, there is no "easily available" way to verify everyone's immunity... IMO, It's just more simple to assume it isn't likely to last more than a few weeks/months and go with the shot.

... and some variants like P1 (Brazil Variants) --the scariest, IMO) are more likely to reinfect people more easily than the OG and other variants:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...-variant-evaded-immunity-previous-covid-cases

 

[jrapps]

I still wouldn't be happy but yes at least an exemption program would be better than nothing. But that isn't what is being suggested here. What people are suggesting is vaccine passports to participate in activities that NEVER required vaccines before. Additionally you can bypass vaccines if you have titers that prove you already have immunity. We don't have anything like a titers test for those with natural immunity.

I can't speak for what others are advocating. What I want to see is fair and equitable treatment. While you would prefer no mandate at all, and truth be told I would probably "prefer" the other extreme with vaccine passports, there is a difference between liking that idea and demanding it. We can meet in the middle if we stop politicizing it. I believe this vaccine should be treated equitably with other vaccines. I can see and acknowledge your perspective on the passports, and see why many object to them. The position I am advocating is that the vaccine can be mandated in the same situations that others are mandated today. To send my kids to school, I have to get them over a dozen vaccines for things have haven't killed over half a million Americans. I think treating this vaccine with the same rules as those is fair and reasonable. (and yes providing the same exemptions that exist today for other vaccines)

As for bypassing vaccines, just because there is natural immunity does not preclude a vaccine from being mandated (think chickenpox). I just want the politics taken out of the conversation and people to realize that mandating vaccines is nothing new, is not evil or immoral, and there are many real health benefits to mandating them which is why we have mandates for them today.

All other vaccines & drugs go through more than 1 year of testing before being approved. We are definitely outside of the scope of what the FDA has normally done.

Just because we are getting better at making, testing, and distributing vaccines doesn't really apply. By the time this gets full FDA approval and is available to all age groups, we will likely be at or past a year. Even if this gets full FDA approval this summer, that will only be for 18+. It still needs EUA for kids, then the full FDA approval for kids. That wont happen until mid 2022 at the earliest. I can agree that states should probably wait until we get to that point before mandating them for K-12 schools. But once it is FDA approved, I no longer think it is relevant how long it took to develop.

 

[HiStitch626]

It shouldn't matter... But it does:

When too many people end up hospitalized, it creates stress on the health care system. In my province, having 500-1000 people hospitalized for COVID takes enough beds and the result is that important surgeries have to be postponed. People can die from collateral damages of COVID. In regions with very little hospital beds, the impact of an outbreak in a small town can be dramatic. A high number of unvaccinated people could have a huge impact on the health care system.

Well that is socialized medicine for you

The issues we had were based on the number of cases we had due to the pandemic. Rationing never actually even happened in the US from what I understand. Rationing is the norm for socialized medicine. Long waits for procedures that we have here the next day is very common.

The issues that mevelandry cites had nothing to do with rationing and everything to do with a pandemic situation. I was supposed to have surgery in May of 2020 that was postponed not due to rationing but because my local hospital had passed a threhold of people hospitalized for Covid. There were small towns in the US that were overwhelmed and had to send patients away to larger facilities as they had too many Covid cases.

Waits for elective surgery absolutely occur in the US. My planned surgery was elective and I had to wait. But, in Canada or the UK, or Thailand or Belarus or Turkey or any other place in the world with Universal care, emergencies are treated as emergencies, and care is provided immediately.

I responded as you quoted me, but I am done tilting at windmills.

 

[orum]

I can't speak for what others are advocating. What I want to see is fair and equitable treatment. While you would prefer no mandate at all, and truth be told I would probably "prefer" the other extreme with vaccine passports, there is a difference between liking that idea and demanding it. We can meet in the middle if we stop politicizing it. I believe this vaccine should be treated equitably with other vaccines. I can see and acknowledge your perspective on the passports, and see why many object to them. The position I am advocating is that the vaccine can be mandated in the same situations that others are mandated today. To send my kids to school, I have to get them over a dozen vaccines for things have haven't killed over half a million Americans. I think treating this vaccine with the same rules as those is fair and reasonable. (and yes providing the same exemptions that exist today for other vaccines)

I am an advocate for requiring it just like other vaccines where they are required today once it is approved (attending school, living in on campus housing, professions where it makes sense, etc.). I am also advocating requiring it in the short term for certain higher risk activities (living/working in a nursing home, going on a cruise with a few thousand of your closest friends). Some of those current higher risk activities may fall into categories where it becomes required longer term.

I found it fascinating that vaccines were required in some states and you were fined if you didn't have them. This was upheld by the Supreme Court even. It was quite a while ago, and may not survive another look by the current court, but was still interesting. I didn't know that before someone else mentioned it to me and I had to go look it up.

I like what Stanford is doing for students this upcoming school year. If you have proof of vaccination, you won't have to do weekly or random (I can't remember which) Covid testing. If you aren't vaccinated, you will need to do those tests to remain on campus. I am not sure how well that type of hybrid solves cruise ships in the short term, but it is an interesting option they are using.

 

[AquaDame]

Israel's large 3 month study found natural infection to be 96 percent effective against hospitalisations versus 94 percent with the vaccine. The fact that vaccines are being given to people with previously confirmed infections is highly worrying to me. "Follow the science", or just parts of it, when it suits.

I'll bite; when I do a quick search I see this study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33626250/ but may well be missing the one you're talking about.

 

[AquaDame]

N/m, found a source: https://www.news-medical.net/news/2...OVID-19-vaccine-provide-similar-immunity.aspx

 

[AquaDame]

To which I say, cool. Save the vaccines for those who haven't had it yet if that holds true...

 

[Garyjames220]

Just had my second vaccine today

it was the Oxford one

im a nervous wreck with injection, just hope I don’t get a blood clot

 

[wideeyedwonder]

News in the US:

CDC says 600,000 kids ages 12 to 15 have received Covid vaccine shots in last week

* More than half a million kids ages 12 to 15 have received a Covid vaccine in less than one week since the CDC cleared the Pfizer shot for that age group, the agency said Tuesday.
* Pfizer previously said that studies showed its vaccine is 100% effective in kids ages 12 to 15.

As of yesterday, 56% of the US population over 12 years old has had at least one dose.

 

[Mousequake]

News in the US:

CDC says 600,000 kids ages 12 to 15 have received Covid vaccine shots in last week

* More than half a million kids ages 12 to 15 have received a Covid vaccine in less than one week since the CDC cleared the Pfizer shot for that age group, the agency said Tuesday.
* Pfizer previously said that studies showed its vaccine is 100% effective in kids ages 12 to 15.

As of yesterday, 56% of the US population over 12 years old has had at least one dose.

That’s pretty freaking amazing in just five days.

 

[JWelch62]

That’s pretty freaking amazing in just five days.

Lots of pent up demand.

 

[mevelandry]

Vaccine News from Quebec (Canada): 49.7% of 18 years old + have now received their first dose (2 doses around 4% right now). They have announced reopening plans... When 75% have received two doses, they will remove the mask mandate (expectation: end of August). They say as soon as kids 12-17 yo will have received their first dose (early June), they will start trying to reduce the 16 weeks delay to 12 weeks for most age categories in the same order they used for the first dose. People who have received AZ for their first dose will most likely receive the 2nd one earlier as well.

 

[HiStitch626]

That’s pretty freaking amazing in just five days.

That is great. Currently, about 25% of new Covid infections are in children, so increased availability of the vaccine to younger people will help.

 

[mevelandry]

That is great. Currently, about 25% of new Covid infections are in children, so increased availability of the vaccine to younger people will help.

And they seem to respond so well to the vaccine... I’m curious to find out the % of protection they have after just one dose.