The Running Thread - 2018

[apdebord]

ATTQOTD: I have a 32 oz Brita bottle that goes with me everywhere. I’ve found that I drink more when there’s a straw. Just sip all day.

 

[TheHamm]

ATTQOTD: I was very good when pregnant, I put a piece of painter's tape on my water bottle and put a tick mark every time I emptied it- new day, new tape. Now I have a giant cup on my desk and make it a point to fill it at set intervals, at least 4 at the office. If it isn't empty when the timer says, it is time to chug!
And with all of this I find by mile 2 at lunch I have cotton mouth, so I tried to bring out water, but it is not working for me.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

Similar, yes in it's concept. Run some the day prior to the LR in order to carry fatigue into the following run. It all has to do with the stimulus/adaptation/recovery cycle. By reducing the recovery cycle slowly over time, you force the body to make additional adaptations to the stimulus in order to be prepared to run again on a shorter timeframe. The difference would lie in the duration that Galloway schedules and that I do. And that he goes every other week, whereas I go every week.

The only way I could deal with a 5 hour training run mid-schedule was to consider it an "A" race. For that duration to be an "A" race, we'd have to schedule it at least 12 weeks prior to the Marathon Weekend. Which means you'd want to start training for that 5 hour run now, and then pull back and recover from it, and then build back up for Marathon Weekend. From a training standpoint, in my opinion you would be far better off physically if you didn't do it so that you could focus on training and reduce the necessary recovery. But there is definitely other advantages for doing it as discussed earlier. It's a classic pro/con situation.

Thanks. Just to make sure I'm getting closer to the same page, if followed perfectly the Galloway plan for a 10K/Half challenge will have you running 30-45 minutes on Tuesday/Thursday, and 4 miles on Saturday 3 weeks before the race weekend and 30-45 minutes on Tuesday/Thursday and 5 miles on Saturday and 14 miles on Sunday 2 weeks before the race weekend. Galloway has you running 3 times a week during the "easy" weeks and 4 times a week during the mileage buildup weeks.

Whereas if I'm beginning to process your plan, I'll be ideally running 5-6 days a week every single week regardless of if it's an "easy" week or "hard" week. Or am I still wandering out in left field somewhere?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Following with interest as I am starting to lineup my races for 2019... And probably Dopey 2020.
I am considering running my first Marathon in 2019 and the one that interests me is 12 weeks before Dopey!

2017 Dopey Challenge Training Plan

Took two weeks off. 12 weeks of training prior to Dopey. First week back was pure easy. Only 2 runs over 2 hours (once at max of 2.5 hrs). Finished in 43rd at Dopey with PRs at 5k, 10k, *HM cancelled, and M.

2018 Dopey Challenge Training Plan

Marathon was 10/1/17. I took off from 10/2 through 10/9. I had 14 weeks of training between the return to running and Dopey. The last three weeks prior to my October marathon were 62 miles (8:05), 50 miles (6:41) and 28.75 (4:00, not including marathon). I then returned to running with 32 miles (4:30), 44 miles (6:00), and 54 miles (7:15). Those first two weeks upon returning were pure easy. Then the plan progressed as normal from there. I only hit the max duration (2.5 hrs) once during that cycle and only 2 runs over 2 hours. I ended up finishing in 20th overall place at Dopey with PRs at 5k, 10k, HM, and 2 min off October M PR.

So your timeframe would be a bit more truncated, but it's certainly possible. All about expectations. If the goal is a hard "A" marathon, and then PR attempts at all Dopey races (like you attempted recently with your 5k/10k/HM), then you might consider pulling back on that marathon 12 weeks out to a little further. If the goal is something other than PR at all Dopey, then you should be good to go with the cumulative training done from the prior marathon cycle. It's all about the individual recovery you have from the event.

I have to say I am enjoying the conversation on training and on eating to run- it is why I lurked here for quite some time- but the BBQ, Pizza, Ice Cream, and Alcohol topics keep me on the edge of my seat.

I want to ask about the cumulative fatigue idea and the lack of a requirement to train at full race distance. Is there a distance at which this no longer holds? Why am I interested? Life prevents me from running much more than an hour on a weekend, and that is dependent on what else we are doing (can I make 4 birthday parties, get groceries and pack lunches for the week AND sleep sufficiently? If not, running goes). So I tend to stack hour long runs during the week on my lunch hour or early AM and sometimes work and life foul this up and I end up running 4 days on 2 or 3 off, and I am surprised how much more sore my whole body is by day 4. I am a bit fuzzy on the math of "7 LR + 11 LR on the weekend. That 11 LR isn't like training for miles 0-11 of the marathon. Because of the fatigue from the 7 mile LR the day prior, it's more like training for miles 14-26. " where the second run is more stressful than if the 7 & 11 had been run as 18. I understand little of the strategy of training or recovery, but I imagine it can only help make my time more enjoyable if I do.

This is kind of on the opposite end of the spectrum. How little can I train and still run distance x?

In my opinion, it all comes down to time. As I've said before I don't focus much on mileage. It's merely the function of the two things that matter more in my opinion. Relative effort (or pace) and duration. When you multiply duration * pace, you get the stimulus of the training run. This so happens to equal mileage, but that's all relative.

Like this example from some time ago:

Two kinds of impressive: The person who finishes first may not be the most impressive, it could be who finished last.

Now, how much "time" matters. The body responds to different amounts of time differently.

60 min or less = endurance building and recovery runs
60-90 min = starting to push the endurance a bit more
90-120 min = starting to challenge the muscle glycogen use system
120-150 min = starting to challenge one's runner economy

In my view, there are four main pillars to training. This is the long version:

Eureka! The Quintessential Running Post

VO2max = speed
Lactate Threshold = ability to hold speed
Running Economy = ability to hold LT
Psychobiological Model of Endurance = the mental aspect centered around motivation

With shorter workouts of 60 min or less consistently, you can challenge your VO2max and LT (dependent on pacing). But what you'll lack is the ability to challenge RE. The VO2max and LT play a much larger role for a 5k and 10k, and somewhat for the HM. But a lot of the HM and M depend on RE. It's like building a resiliency to fatigue. If you don't challenge yourself with runs beyond 60 min, then you're going to find it hard to build that resiliency (or to be able to hold your lactate threshold at a certain pace for a longer period of time).

So what happens if you were to train at 60 min or less all the time, and raced say a HM? It could be done, but you would likely be putting yourself at an injury risk. You'd be running the race for completion purposes and should have no time goal. You should plug in your 5k/10k into a race equivalency calculator and expect to be 10-20% slower than the HM time shown.

Even if you could stretch your 60 min cap to a 90 min cap every third weekend, you would significantly improve your chances at a HM. It's only an extra 30 min of sleep every three weeks. But believe it or not, it would make a pretty big difference. And if you could get 1-2 runs between 90-120 min, then you would be in an even better place.

The other consideration is double days (doing more than one run in a single day). But that gets super tricky and is not something I recommend doing unless you really understand the concepts. It's the super truncated recovery cycle that could yield a similar effect to runs longer than 60 min, but I can't be certain the body would respond in the same manner. So this is me saying don't do double days unless you know what you're doing.

Thanks. Just to make sure I'm getting closer to the same page, if followed perfectly the Galloway plan for a 10K/Half challenge will have you running 30-45 minutes on Tuesday/Thursday, and 4 miles on Saturday 3 weeks before the race weekend and 30-45 minutes on Tuesday/Thursday and 5 miles on Saturday and 14 miles on Sunday 2 weeks before the race weekend. Galloway has you running 3 times a week during the "easy" weeks and 4 times a week during the mileage buildup weeks.

Whereas if I'm beginning to process your plan, I'll be ideally running 5-6 days a week every single week regardless of if it's an "easy" week or "hard" week. Or am I still wandering out in left field somewhere?

I setup the amount of training based on one's personal ability to train. I base it on how much they've done recently (last few months, and more specifically last three weeks). I also base it on their availability on a daily basis (both days per week and time per day). So there's no set pattern necessarily. Some people do 4 days. Some do 4/5 days alternating. Some do 5 days, etc. I do my best to write the plan around the person rather than the person around the plan.

Yes, Galloway alternates 3/4 like that because he's trying to induce extra recovery from the super long run. I instead pull back on the super long run, and can incorporate more training stimulus over the course of the training. Two different methodologies to try and get a similar effect in the end.

I do oscillate my plans, but generally I do the oscillation based on the weekly mileage (duration) more so than days per week. So most people do a set number of days per week and then I manipulate the amount of training per day to get the easy, medium, and long weeks.

 

[jennamfeo]

ATTQOTD: I was doing really good there for a while and kind of fell off the water wagon a bit, but I am trying to pick it back up. I have a 32oz bottle that I bring to work and a sticky note on my desk that says "Drink 1 bottle before lunch & 1 bottle before you leave!" So that's my daily goal. Plus any bonus ounces from my La Croix addiction.

or in my morning cup of coffee.

I know people say that this doesn't count, but I like to pretend that it has to count a little.

 

[Sleepless Knight]

@DopeyBadger Thank you yet again for the explanation. I made a lot of mistakes while training for my very first half. Then in an attempt to recover from some of those mistakes before that first half, I nearly turned those mistakes into disasters. Rightly concluding that it would be better to fail during the race instead of injuring myself to the point of not even starting the race, I dialed back to what had been working and hoped for the best. Well, it worked and thus set a pattern of knowing what worked and didn't work all centered around Galloway's runDisney plans.

Because the pattern worked, I stuck with it for many years. It wasn't until my decision to attempt a half on just 3 weeks training that I had to incorporate what I had learned into a new pattern. I settled on an appropriate gradual and safe progression to 13.1 miles on race and then modified a 4 week half training plan into the 3 weeks I actually had and felt like the required daily running times were doable and safe.

So while I feel similar to how I did before my first half, I do not want to repeat those mistakes. I'll probably make new mistakes, but this time I'm experienced enough to know that I can share those failures and learn why they happened.

 

[TCB in FLA]

ATTUQUOD: when I’m running, I have a small 4 oz bottle I can wear in my SS that I fill up halfway. Then I finish a 20 oz water bottle on the ride home. During my OTF workouts, I finish a 20 oz water before I leave the studio, refill to finish on the ride home. I’m pretty good about drinking up during the day, between sparkling and still varieties.

@rteetz I didn’t like your “not Active but still fees”post because

 

[cavepig]

Unofficial QOTD: It's heating up out there, folks! How do you make sure you get enough water each day? Do you track ounces? Have a favorite cup/water bottle that helps?

(PS... Feel better soon @LSUlakes!)

I don't track, but I know if I haven't drank enough I'll start getting a headache. I try to be preventive but somedays I'll just get caught up and forget but start to feel heavy headed. I do drink Gatorade after running though and I might later in the day too if I've been outside all day sweating as water doesn't always cut it it seems. I do seem to use the same few cups though and they are all Disney, Star Wars & and Indiana Jones cup!

 

[rteetz]

ATTUQUOD: when I’m running, I have a small 4 oz bottle I can wear in my SS that I fill up halfway. Then I finish a 20 oz water bottle on the ride home. During my OTF workouts, I finish a 20 oz water before I leave the studio, refill to finish on the ride home. I’m pretty good about drinking up during the day, between sparkling and still varieties.

@rteetz I didn’t like your “not Active but still fees”post because

It actually is still active so...

 

[flav]

All about expectations.

Thanks @DopeyBadger for taking the time to react to my 2019 plans in making! I like to dream the future.

When I realized that 12 weeks between what will be my longest races so far, I started reading on the internet and found great articles on “if less than 3 weeks between Marathons” or “if between 3 and 8 weeks between Marathons” and had concluded that it was feasible.

You are right to point out that my expectations on each of these are critical to my training approach. You already also know me well. The October 20th 2019 Marathon first goal would be a hard PR... Depending on how I do between now and then, I might even attempt a BQ. With second goal to learn from a new experience and finish it.
The Dopey goal will be a NG or rather to have fun. DD is dreaming too so I might have a 12 YO running partner for the 5k and 10k in 2020!

ATTveryOldQOTD: I am slowly getting over a summer cold. We are at the beach and, today, instead of jumping to swim in the water and running at low tide, I just put my towel down and fell asleep on it. Conclusion is that, even if both are bummers, I prefer summer cold to winter cold because I’d rather be miserable outside than inside. That is definitely consistent with my views on running!

ATTunofficialQOTD: I typically forget to drink and do not keep track of it unless I am a few days before a race. Then, I have hours on each cups and water bottles in my office.

 

[beatlecat42]

Sorry for being absent today. I have a stomach bug and well... it’s not fun. I hope to be back tomorrow.

feel better soon!

qotd: THIS

I don't track, but I know if I haven't drank enough I'll start getting a headache. I try to be preventive but somedays I'll just get caught up and forget but start to feel heavy headed. I do drink Gatorade after running though and I might later in the day too if I've been outside all day sweating as water doesn't always cut it it seems. I do seem to use the same few cups though and they are all Disney, Star Wars & and Indiana Jones cup!

except it's Cubs souvenir cups for me

 

[FFigawi]

Unofficial QOTD: It's heating up out there, folks! How do you make sure you get enough water each day? Do you track ounces? Have a favorite cup/water bottle that helps?

I don't track it. When my bottle or mug gets empty, I go refill it.

 

[Waiting2goback]

QOTD: I just drink at my desk and each time I go to the bathroom, the water fountain is near the bathrooms, so I refill it.

As for the pizza debate, since I have been absent a few days, the best flatbread I had on property was at the GF in Gasparilla's. My favorite pizza on property is at Blaze Pizza at DS. I worry about sharing because it is the best value on property IMO. Fresh made in front of you. I pay about $12 including a drink.

 

[Waiting2goback]

 

[kbenson13]

ATTUQOTD: I carry a 32 oz Nalgene bottle around with me all day and fill it a few times. I don't track how much I drink, but I do consider the color of what comes out of me when I use the bathroom. If it's relatively clear, I know I'm drinking enough...

 

[LSUlakes]

QOTD: How many weeks do you dedicate to prepare for any one race?

ATTQOTD: For a goal race that is either a half or full marathon I will have a specific plan that last 18 weeks. For shorter races that time frame will last anywhere from 8-12 weeks.

 

[Capang]

ATTQOTD: I spent 3 months working up to my first 5k, although to be fair the Galloway plan I used had me covering that distance well before the 3 months was over. And I did it nearly twice just to make sure I was ready. So maybe more like 5 months, although the last 3 I took more seriously.

 

[GreatLakes]

QOTD: How many weeks do you dedicate to prepare for any one race?

Generally the only race I have a plan for is fulls and they are 18 weeks. I don't train for 5Ks or 10Ks and I can be ready for a half in a few weeks even in the dead of winter. I just go knock out a few 10 mile runs and am ready to go.

This year though I do have a 10K plan I'm using for the W&D race to try and place and that is an 8 week plan.

 

[LSUlakes]

Probs the same fascist that decided that squash and zucchini are acceptable pasta substitutes.

I substitute the noodles in lasagna with zucchini and eggplant. No they are equals, but on the calorie department, its worth the sacrifice and still yummy!

Pizza - pepperoni. I like super greasy ny style best

@BuckeyeBama glad to hear you're back on the horse after that scare. My Vo2 max dropped from 57 to 39 over the course of my pregnancy. I started running after the baby was 2 months old and after 8 months of generally slow and easy miles (0-6 miles) it's back up to 54-55. I try to run at least 2-3 miles daily since it affects my mood.

Long race report since I haven't raced in over 13 months:
Signed up last minute for a local 10k but wasn't sure where my fitness level was at (see paragraph above). I quit speed training months ago after an injury and just took slow easy runs since.

Tried to run blind and take my first mile easy but noticed I was breathing hard and wasn't sure if it was just nerves because I didn't feel like I was pushing it, so looked down at my watch and saw a 7:06 pace. Yikes! Pulled back, but still saw a 7:06 pace at the 1 mile marker. Tried to relax a little, but was going 7:07 at 2 miles. I slowed dramatically afterwards, but it may be because the guy I was pacing behind was fading pretty fast. But I was angry at how I once again fell into the trap of going out too fast when I felt tired after mile 4. I did "chomp" a few people, but I had a feeling a woman I passed around mile 4 was going to race past me at the finish line. Since I was running mostly blind, I miscalculated and sprinted towards the finish line... that ended up being almost a mile away. I was disheartened and slowed down a lot but near the end was able to get back to a faster pace. And yes, at the end that woman beat me by 10 seconds.

Anyways, somehow I PR'd! 43:31
6th female overall and 2nd in my AG!

Whats the name of this race or is it already posted? TIA

 

[rteetz]

QOTD: How many weeks do you dedicate to prepare for any one race?

8+ as it depends on the distance and the training plan.